I think Mike Smith is right.....

[MR.W]

After listening to his interview on 60 Minutes, Mike said that with a win in the BCC, Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever. Obviously this is arguable, but that's the way I see it too.
There.....I got that off my chest. Now let the attacks begin.:)

[Dave in TJMex]

After listening to his interview on 60 Minutes, Mike said that with a win in the BCC, Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever. Obviously this is arguable, but that's the way I see it too.
There.....I got that off my chest. Now let the attacks begin.:)

Zenyatta fan here, but IMHO no horse that will have raced in open company only twice is "the greatest race horse ever."

Greatest filly/mare of modern time (who knows about Kincsem): sure, why not.

Greatest race horse, male or female, of all time? Better than Citation, Native Dancer, Secretariat, Forego, John Henry, Spectacular Bid, Cigar?

[The Tin Man]

My view is the greatest FEMALE in the modern era ... I'll leave the comparison to males to the pundits to mull over. ;-)

[gravano]

How many of Man O' War's races were open company?

[Dave in TJMex]

How many of Man O' War's races were open company?

All of them, I would assume if you include the age-restricted races he won as a two year old and three year old.

By "open company" in this thread, I am referring to races open to horses of either sex. And thus fillies could have run in any of the age restricted races Man O'War won as a two year old and three year old.

[Happy Endings]

Last I heard, age-restricted races are not considered open company. Open company races are those that a horse of any age or sex can participate in. You can't just change the definition for convenience. It is what it is.

[Happy Endings]

If she wins, I think it may depend how she wins. If she breaks Secretariat's track record it will be hard to argue against her. I know some will still try, but they probably won't have much of an audience.

[Beijing]

If she wins I will be shocked!

By the way, wasn't it Mike Smith who had such high praise for Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo until Giacomo was exposed ....


:crazy:

[Dave in TJMex]

Last I heard, age-restricted races are not considered open company. Open company races are those that a horse of any age or sex can participate in. You can't just change the definition for convenience. It is what it is.

Of course you are correct.

The point, though, is that Zenyatta has ducked competing against the boys for 18 of her 20 races, choosing instead to run against far less capable competition by staying with the filly/mare division, and for that matter, only coming east twice to run against other fillies and mares.

Man O'War's races were all open to fillies (or mares, as the case may be), if they wanted to run.

Looks like Man O'War ran in 7-8 "open company" races in his three year old year (perhaps every race that year other than the Preakness, Belmont and Travers?). Its a little difficult to tell which races that year were open company for him.

Assuming that he ran at least 6 open company races -- which would mean that at age 3, he was running against any older horse that wanted to try him --- that would still be 3 times as many open company races as Zenyatta ran in.

Look, I love Z. She has been handled beautifully by her connections. I am hoping she wins the BCC by open lengths in a blaze of glory.

But I can still be objective.

Z's connections chose a course for her that involved not running against males other than in the BCC, twice. I think that costs her big-time lifttime reputation points (why not the Pacific Classic or Hollywood Gold Cup or Santa Anita Handicap the last couple of years, on synth, against modest male competition? No QR or Blame or Lucky in any of those races).

If she wins Saturday, she is up there with the great males, but not better than, IMHO, Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, among others. Her competition was just not solid enough in enough races to warrant her being placed above horses of that type, at least not in mind.

Just my opinion. Yours may differ, and may be a reasonable opinion as well.

[Curlin]

Of course you are correct.

The point, though, is that Zenyatta has ducked competing against the boys for 18 of her 20 races, choosing instead to run against far less capable competition by staying with the filly/mare division, and for that matter, only coming east twice to run against other fillies and mares.

Man O'War's races were all open to fillies (or mares, as the case may be), if they wanted to run.

Looks like Man O'War ran in 7-8 "open company" races in his three year old year (perhaps every race that year other than the Preakness, Belmont and Travers?). Its a little difficult to tell which races that year were open company for him.

Assuming that he ran at least 6 open company races -- which would mean that at age 3, he was running against any older horse that wanted to try him --- that would still be 3 times as many open company races as Zenyatta ran in.

Look, I love Z. She has been handled beautifully by her connections. I am hoping she wins the BCC by open lengths in a blaze of glory.

But I can still be objective.

Z's connections chose a course for her that involved not running against males other than in the BCC, twice. I think that costs her big-time lifttime reputation points (why not the Pacific Classic or Hollywood Gold Cup or Santa Anita Handicap the last couple of years, on synth, against modest male competition? No QR or Blame or Lucky in any of those races).

If she wins Saturday, she is up there with the great males, but not better than, IMHO, Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, among others. Her competition was just not solid enough in enough races to warrant her being placed above horses of that type, at least not in mind.

Just my opinion. Yours may differ, and may be a reasonable opinion as well.

And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.

I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable. ;)

[djnorth]

Upset was a filly? I don't remember reading that, not that it's incorrect.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever.

ROFLMAO

[Dave in TJMex]

And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.

I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable. ;)

Yes, of course my opinion that a horse that only races in open company twice may not be the undisputed best horse (male or female) of all time is reasonable. Do you disagree?

There is a reason fillies and mares get their own non-open company races to run in.
At longer distances, they run slower than comparable males.

If you believe that Z is one of the best horses of either sex in history, then you have to concede the point that by running against a slower class of two turn runners, fillies and mares, most of Zenyatta's races during her career were nothing more than paid workouts against far slower competition.

Z's connections made the decision early on not to possibly burn Zenyatta out by running her race after race against grueling competition (i.e., Grade I males), where she likely would have had to dig down much deeper to win (e.g., look at what happened to Rachel doing that as a three year old).

So, Z's connections get full credit for spacing her races and picking their spots to keep this wonderful horse fit and happy and healthy and undefeated for three years.

As a result, however, Z does not and should not get credit for winning races that she never ran in. Until Saturday, she will never have run against Grade I boys on dirt. That is a black eye for her when people say she is the best ever, male or female. Any speculation that she would have won more races against the boys had she raced them more often is just that, speculation.

Saturday is a HUGE race for her reputation, IMO. It will be a good field coming into the race in good form, and a dry track, apparently.

If she wins, the argument about where she ranks among all-time greats of either sex can begin. If she loses, well, she is still our favorite and arguably the greatest filly/mare of all time.

[Ty88]

Upset was not a filly.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/upset

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

All of them, I would assume if you include the age-restricted races he won as a two year old and three year old.

By "open company" in this thread, I am referring to races open to horses of either sex. And thus fillies could have run in any of the age restricted races Man O'War won as a two year old and three year old.


MOW ran in 2 "totally" open races. That is all - not 6.

Although, 1 of them wasn't "truly" open - it was closed to geldings (the Jockey Club Stk - "Jockey Club Gold Cup"). Otherwise, it was wide open. But no elder horses even entered, much less ran.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.

I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable. ;)


Upset was most assuredly NOT a filly.

However, many top fillies did run against MOW, as a 2yo - how times have changed.

[raven]

MOW ran in 2 "totally" open races. That is all - not 6.

Although, 1 of them wasn't "truly" open - it was closed to geldings (the Jockey Club Stk - "Jockey Club Gold Cup"). Otherwise, it was wide open. But no elder horses even entered, much less ran.

ha,ha,ha M.O.W vs Z. what are you guys smoking?

[Horse's Rear]

MOW ran in 2 "totally" open races. That is all - not 6.

Although, 1 of them wasn't "truly" open - it was closed to geldings (the Jockey Club Stk - "Jockey Club Gold Cup"). Otherwise, it was wide open. But no elder horses even entered, much less ran.
The Belmont was also closed to geldings. Man o' War faced one older horse. The fact that the Jockey Club was closed to geldings is no trivial matter, as it means that Exterminator was excluded. Four days after Man o' War defeated Damask at level weights in the 12f Jockey Club Gold Cup, Exterminator defeated Damask in the 16f Autumn Cup, while conceding 30 lbs. WFA conditions between Man o'War and Exterminator would have been quite a race.

[gravano]

The Belmont was also closed to geldings. Man o' War faced one older horse. The fact that the Jockey Club was closed to geldings is no trivial matter, as it means that Exterminator was excluded. Four days after Man o' War defeated Damask at level weights in the 12f Jockey Club Gold Cup, Exterminator defeated Damask in the 16f Autumn Cup, while conceding 30 lbs. WFA conditions between Man O' War and Exterminator would have been quite a race.

Yeah, that's how I understand it as well. So, the competition-faced argument -- which seems to be the most prominent -- doesn't really hold as a reason Zenyatta doesn't compare to the greats.

Mind you, they're very different. MOW raced many distances, at many tracks and compiled his share of track records at incredible imposts and while being geared down -- not to mention with often very little rest. Which probably had something to do with him not being able to race as a 4YO.

[Commentator]

Greatest horse of the past 20-30 years? Sure. But we went over it in the Zenyatta thread a bit, I don't see the purpose or logic in declaring one horse the greatest ever- the sport is so different that there's no way to logically compare horses that are many decades apart, making the whole exercise rather pointless.

However, she'll widely be considered the greatest female racehorse ever if she wins. This much is fact.

[CoronadosQuest]

If/When Zenyatta wins the BC Classic for the second time in a row, she will be the best female racehorse of all time, in my mind, no doubt. However... I don't think she holds a candle to Citation, Forego, Kelso, John Henry, Native Dancer, Spectacular Bid, Secretariat, Man O War, etc.

[Horse's Rear]

However, she'll widely be considered the greatest female racehorse ever if she wins. This much is fact.

Nah. Kincsem. Best female. Best racehorse. Best ever.

[gravano]

Hey Commentator:

I saw your namesake last weekend. He looked great lording over his nice domain.
277

[Commentator]

Ahh! Thank you for posting that pic! He looks just like he always did on the racetrack, haha. It really pains me that I'm not going to be able to see him when I'm in Kentucky. Glad to hear that he's doing well :)


Nah. Kincsem. Best female. Best racehorse. Best ever. Forgive me. How could I forget? ;)

[The Tin Man]

Nah. Kincsem. Best female. Best racehorse. Best ever.

And Cap Anson was the greatest baseball player of all time. REALLY hard to compare "athletes" who performed over a century apart. In all honesty, realistically impossible.

I couldn't even conceive of how to rate Kincsem. Who did she beat? Give me some famous horses she vanquished.

Not saying she wasn't better ... Just have NO idea how one could objectively make comparisons as I highly doubt we know Kincsem's races or competition as well as we know Zenny's or even Secretariat's.

Going back over 100 years to proclaim a horse the greatest ever sounds really cool ... But who the heck knows? It's a totally different environment.

[MR.W]

Greatest horse of the past 20-30 years? Sure. But we went over it in the Zenyatta thread a bit, I don't see the purpose or logic in declaring one horse the greatest ever- the sport is so different that there's no way to logically compare horses that are many decades apart, making the whole exercise rather pointless.

However, she'll widely be considered the greatest female racehorse ever if she wins. This much is fact.
While I agree with your assessment here, it is interesting that people or the so-called experts like Mike Smith make the comments like they make and The Blood-Horse several years back came out with a special edition magazine rating the top 100 racehorses of this century. So while all of this sounds kinds of crazy, even the experts make the comparisons.

[Dave in TJMex]

Yeah, that's how I understand it as well. So, the competition-faced argument -- which seems to be the most prominent -- doesn't really hold as a reason Zenyatta doesn't compare to the greats.

Mind you, they're very different. MOW raced many distances, at many tracks and compiled his share of track records at incredible imposts and while being geared down -- not to mention with often very little rest. Which probably had something to do with him not being able to race as a 4YO.

Maybe the "competition faced" argument is "fixed" as to Zenyatta versus Man O'War.

But how about Z versus Spectacular Bid? Or Cigar? Or against any number of the other top older horses (historically) who are in the mix and who had loads of open company Grade I races?

There is a reason why nobody seriously mentions Peppers' Pride in this discussion.

Quality of competition DOES matter. It is what the entire discussion is about.

It was at the heart of the Zenyatta versus Rachel debate for HOY last year.

Sadly, IMO had Z's connections cherry-picked a couple of more Grade I "open company" races to run in with so-so competition that she might have won (Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, even the Santa Anita Handicap) Zenyatta might have put this argument to rest.

But her connections babied her. . . handled her great, but babied her other than the two BCC, and now we will never know what her ceiling (in terms of achievements) was. . . .

[The Tin Man]

There is a reason why nobody seriously mentions Peppers' Pride in this discussion.

Quality of competition DOES matter. It is what the entire discussion is about.



Dave ... Now you're just being funny right? You're not really equating Zenyatta's competition level to the competition level Pepper's Pride faced are you?

I like to think I'm misreading you here. :)

[The Tin Man]

Sadly, IMO had Z's connections cherry-picked a couple of more Grade I "open company" races to run in with so-so competition that she might have won (Pacific Classic, Hollywood Gold Cup, even the Santa Anita Handicap) Zenyatta might have put this argument to rest.



I agree with you here ... But you honestly don't think her detractors would have credited her for beating Awesome Gem and Rivchard's Kid do you? I mean ... Really?

Maybe they would have given her MORE credit than they do now ... But you and I BOTH know they'd have been slamming her male cometition in those races too!

[Dave in TJMex]

Dave ... Now you're just being funny right? You're not really equating Zenyatta's competition level to the competition level Pepper's Pride faced are you?

I like to think I'm misreading you here. :)

Hi Tin Man -

Hope you are having fun this week before the BC.

Of course not, I am not equating the competition faced by Z and PP.

I AM saying that quality of competition matters in evaluating the greatness of a horse.

[Dave in TJMex]

I agree with you here ... But you honestly don't think her detractors would have credited her for beating Awesome Gem and Rivchard's Kid do you? I mean ... Really?

Maybe they would have given her MORE credit than they do now ... But you and I BOTH know they'd have been slamming her male cometition in those races too!

I don't care what Z's critics say, unless what they say makes sense.

IMO, Richard's Kid is a better horse than anyone Z has beaten to date this year.

More importantly, the Pacific Classic is an open company race. Anyone and everyone can run there. So, a Z victory there is more significant, even if none of the top East Coast horses fly out to Del Mar or Santa Anita or Hollywood to run against her.

The symbolism of Z running in an open company race may be as important as who she beats in that race.

[terpsichorist]

If she wins this classic on dirt , I'd give best older female .

There were many great young fillys that in my opinion would have put her to the test.

Having watched Kentucky Derby winner Genuine Risk's bids in the Classics is right ip there.
Of course I wont' leave out Ruffian either in her short career.

Zen didn't race at two and three ,so we don't't know how she would compare to several past Triple Tiara winners and other champion filly's , and how she woild come out of those races if she showed up.

[The Tin Man]

Hi Tin Man -

Hope you are having fun this week before the BC.

Of course not, I am not equating the competition faced by Z and PP.

I AM saying that quality of competition matters in evaluating the greatness of a horse.

I agree with you there Dave ... I'm kinda having the same discussion regarding Kincsem over on the Zenny thread.

That being said, just cause a horse hasn't faced certain competition doesn't mean the horse wouldn't have bested it had it faced them. So we can't automatically assume they weren't better, as many tend to do. We can just speculate as to what may have happened.

Would Man 'O War have beaten Secretariat? Who knows? But we can sure speculate about it! ;-)

[The Tin Man]

Hi Tin Man -

Hope you are having fun this week before the BC.



As far as my pre BC week? Yeah ... I love this time of the horse racing year. Win or lose, as long as she gets out healthy and retires, I'll be a happy guy. Of course happier with a win, but happy nonetheless for the enjoyment she's given me these last few years. We're on gravy time now, in my eyes. :)

[Dave in TJMex]

As far as my pre BC week? Yeah ... I love this time of the horse racing year. Win or lose, as long as she gets out healthy and retires, I'll be a happy guy. Of course happier with a win, but happy nonetheless for the enjoyment she's given me these last few years. We're on gravy time now, in my eyes. :)

I agree with this completely. :)

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

The Belmont was also closed to geldings. Man o' War faced one older horse. The fact that the Jockey Club was closed to geldings is no trivial matter, as it means that Exterminator was excluded. Four days after Man o' War defeated Damask at level weights in the 12f Jockey Club Gold Cup, Exterminator defeated Damask in the 16f Autumn Cup, while conceding 30 lbs. WFA conditions between Man o'War and Exterminator would have been quite a race.


Ah, but here's the dirty little secret:

OFFICIALLY the race was closed to geldings.

HOWEVER, horses gelded prior to 1919 WERE ALLOWED - grandfathered in. So in truth, Exterminator COULD HAVE entered. (And the weight break was 8lb.)

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

Nah. Kincsem. Best female. Best racehorse. Best ever.

With 52 races (6 non-races called "walk-overs") in the always-renowned racing environments of Austria, Hungary and Germany, not on your life.

[Horse's Rear]

Going back over 100 years to proclaim a horse the greatest ever sounds really cool ... But who the heck knows? It's a totally different environment.
We go around this repeatedly and some people refuse to accept the evidence of history which is available for anyone to read.

If that's your commitment, fine. But then don't say "best ever," when you do not mean "ever." And, at some point, offer an explanation for why the gap from 2010 (Zenyatta) to 1919 (Man o'War) is somehow less insurmountable than the gap from 1919 (Man o'War) to 1877 (Kincsem).

Or wake me up when you find a horse who can go undefeated against the best company in the world for four consecutive seasons. It's not easy. And the only people who consider it easy are the people who question the value of those who--on very rare occasions--approximate the accomplishment.

Kincsem's record 0f 54 wins with no losses is what it is; so is Zenyatta's, so is Man o'War's, so is Native Dancer's, so is St. Simon's. You value them or you do not; opinions are like that.

[The Tin Man]

We go around this repeatedly and some people refuse to accept the evidence of history which is available for anyone to read.

If that's your commitment, fine. But then don't say "best ever," when you do not mean "ever." And, at some point, offer an explanation for why the gap from 2010 (Zenyatta) to 1919 (Man o'War) is somehow less insurmountable than the gap from 1919 (Man o'War) to 1877 (Kincsem).

Or wake me up when you find a horse who can go undefeated against the best company in the world for four consecutive seasons. It's not easy. And the only people who consider it easy are the people who question the value of those who--on very rare occasions--approximate the accomplishment.

Kincsem's record 0f 54 wins with no losses is what it is; so is Zenyatta's, so is Man o'War's, so is Native Dancer's, so is St. Simon's. You value them or you do not; opinions are like that.

I never said the best female EVER HR ... I said the best MODERN female ... Just sayin' ... ;-)

Man 'O War doesn't enter into the equation in MY part of the discussion because I've only been talking about the FEMALE division. I've never once stated that Zenny might be the best HORSE ever ... I've never compared her to the male division historically speaking.

BTW ... Where the heck is BF? Suspiciously scarce lately ...

[Starine]

Uh, no.

[Songofthesword]

I would be willing to concede, she's the best race mare in the last half century at least. It took some debating with myself to come to that, but I'm willing to concede that.

[The Tin Man]

I would be willing to concede, she's the best race mare in the last half century at least. It took some debating with myself to come to that, but I'm willing to concede that.

That's pretty much all I'm saying ... Modern era FEMALE ... :)

[Horse's Rear]

I never said the best female EVER HR ... I said the best MODERN female ... Just sayin' ... ;-)


Kincsem entered the conversation when another poster used the "best ever" tag. You can look it up.

For those who want to learn more about Hungarian racing during that era, the internet has made a lot of material readily available that one used to have to go to libraries to access.

One simple spot on Google books that might interest some is pages 263-88 here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_Z6EAAAAIAAJ&dq=kincsem%20thoroughbred&pg=PA263#v=onepage&q=kincsem%20thoroughbred&f=false

[The Tin Man]

Kincsem entered the conversation when another poster used the "best ever" tag. You can look it up.

For those who want to learn more about Hungarian racing during that era, the internet has made a lot of material readily available that one used to have to go to libraries to access.

One simple spot on Google books that might interest some is pages 263-88 here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=_Z6EAAAAIAAJ&dq=kincsem%20thoroughbred&pg=PA263#v=onepage&q=kincsem%20thoroughbred&f=false

Another poster maybe ... Wasn't me though ... ;-)

[Songofthesword]

it's quite simple to me. when you start talking best of all time in anything, the first thing I look at, are records broken.

Calling z the best of all time is equivalent to calling Bill Russell the best basketball player of all time becuase he won 11 championships. no doubt, Bill Russell was the man, he's even in the discussion of best ever, but he's not the best ever. He doesn't sniff the most points scored (Kareem can almost triple his points against bill russell), Wilt has 2 thousand more rebounds then he does. He was a very good player, GREAT all time player but not the best ever.

Zenyatta has never broken any records as far as time is concerned. IMHO that's the standard when you are talking about best ever. Yes time only counts blah blah, but when we are talking about best ever, records need to be owned. That's why I always will consider Dr Fager, Man O War, Big Red and spectacular Bid the best 4 race horses to date. When you start talking best of all time, they do things, not just win, but do things, that you do not think can be done. Like..winning the Belmont by over 30 lengths, or MJ dropping 38, bringing his team back from a 17 point deficit, with the flu, no more than 24 hours after doctors told him there was no way in hell he could play, falling over almost being so sick, wilt draining philly up for 100 points in 1 game, or Reggie Jackson hitting back to back to back hr's in the playoffs off 3 pitches.

As much as I respect Z, she's done nothing of the like, and until she does, she isn't in that discussion.

[Commentator]

Who, me? I didn't say it was my opinion, I said that it would become the general opinion of the media and the majority of fans. Right now it's Ruffian, that much is pretty clear even if one disagrees with it. Should Zenyatta win, the media will call her the best female ever. There will be articles debating about her place in history but conceding that she is the best female ever. Whether they are correct or not is a matter of personal preference.

I've already said that the "best ever" title is pointless. That doesn't stop people from using it. Personally, I will have no problem calling her the best female horse of the modern era if she wins.

[Curlin]

Upset was most assuredly NOT a filly.

However, many top fillies did run against MOW, as a 2yo - how times have changed.

Sorry, I got Upset mixed up with Regret. My bad.

[Happy Endings]

I posted a comment on the Zenyatta thread that would make sense here, too. I'm not going to repost the whole thing, but will just say that I think if she wins on Saturday she will likely become the best KNOWN horse of all time. Her story would just be too compelling to be ignored. And to me that's more important than a ranking on the Bloodhorse list. Who outside the racing community even knows about that list? How many know the name of horses like Kelso? No, Zenyatta's name will be far more widely known than any of those horses and you all can argue all you want about who is best, but that won't affect what the general populace thinks. A record of 20-0 while winning the biggest race of the year twice...what a story.

[raven]

I posted a comment on the Zenyatta thread that would make sense here, too. I'm not going to repost the whole thing, but will just say that I think if she wins on Saturday she will likely become the best KNOWN horse of all time. Her story would just be too compelling to be ignored. And to me that's more important than a ranking on the Bloodhorse list. Who outside the racing community even knows about that list? How many know the name of horses like Kelso? No, Zenyatta's name will be far more widely known than any of those horses and you all can argue all you want about who is best, but that won't affect what the general populace thinks. A record of 20-0 while winning the biggest race of the year twice...what a story.

best known horse of all time? Secretariat! Man O War!

[Horsebagger]

I posted a comment on the Zenyatta thread that would make sense here, too. I'm not going to repost the whole thing, but will just say that I think if she wins on Saturday she will likely become the best KNOWN horse of all time. Her story would just be too compelling to be ignored. And to me that's more important than a ranking on the Bloodhorse list. Who outside the racing community even knows about that list? How many know the name of horses like Kelso? No, Zenyatta's name will be far more widely known than any of those horses and you all can argue all you want about who is best, but that won't affect what the general populace thinks. A record of 20-0 while winning the biggest race of the year twice...what a story.

She'll be the best known horse of all time? Ridiculous. And the Classic is looked upon as the biggest race of the year? uhhhh....no.

[Slewbopper]

Of course you are correct.

If she wins Saturday, she is up there with the great males, but not better than, IMHO, Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, among others. Her competition was just not solid enough in enough races to warrant her being placed above horses of that type, at least not in mind.

Just my opinion. Yours may differ, and may be a reasonable opinion as well.

How many lengtha would Sec, Slew, Bid, Affirmed, etc have won the Vanity, Hirsch and Lady's Secret by? Even if she wins her second Classic, I still would not place Z higher than 35 Ruffian on the Bloodhorse 100. It is a tough list. Sunday is 31 and Easy is 34. Would she have a shot against either of these two in the Classic? Let's get real with this all-time business.

[Happy Endings]

She'll be the best known horse of all time? Ridiculous. And the Classic is looked upon as the biggest race of the year? uhhhh....no.

Same comment. Same answer. Uh, yes.

[Ty88]

it's quite simple to me. when you start talking best of all time in anything, the first thing I look at, are records broken.

Calling z the best of all time is equivalent to calling Bill Russell the best basketball player of all time becuase he won 11 championships. no doubt, Bill Russell was the man, he's even in the discussion of best ever, but he's not the best ever. He doesn't sniff the most points scored (Kareem can almost triple his points against bill russell), Wilt has 2 thousand more rebounds then he does. He was a very good player, GREAT all time player but not the best ever.

Zenyatta has never broken any records as far as time is concerned. IMHO that's the standard when you are talking about best ever. Yes time only counts blah blah, but when we are talking about best ever, records need to be owned. That's why I always will consider Dr Fager, Man O War, Big Red and spectacular Bid the best 4 race horses to date. When you start talking best of all time, they do things, not just win, but do things, that you do not think can be done. Like..winning the Belmont by over 30 lengths, or MJ dropping 38, bringing his team back from a 17 point deficit, with the flu, no more than 24 hours after doctors told him there was no way in hell he could play, falling over almost being so sick, wilt draining philly up for 100 points in 1 game, or Reggie Jackson hitting back to back to back hr's in the playoffs off 3 pitches.

As much as I respect Z, she's done nothing of the like, and until she does, she isn't in that discussion.

She owns three stakes records and one track record.

[Songofthesword]

She owns three stakes records and one track record.


midshipman owns a freaking stakes record for crying out loud lol. We aren't taking about stakes records. We are talking about REAL records. World records.

Dr Fager broke the WORLD record for a dirt mile. Big Red Broke the WORLD record for 12F dirt. Man O War still holds the WORLD record for a mile and 5/8ths.

[Songofthesword]

How many lengtha would Sec, Slew, Bid, Affirmed, etc have won the Vanity, Hirsch and Lady's Secret by? Even if she wins her second Classic, I still would not place Z higher than 35 Ruffian on the Bloodhorse 100. It is a tough list. Sunday is 31 and Easy is 34. Would she have a shot against either of these two in the Classic? Let's get real with this all-time business.
:high5:

[Slewbopper]

I agree with you here ... But you honestly don't think her detractors would have credited her for beating Awesome Gem and Rivchard's Kid do you? I mean ... Really?

Maybe they would have given her MORE credit than they do now ... But you and I BOTH know they'd have been slamming her male cometition in those races too!

She certainly would have gotten credit for runnng in and winning the 750 K Whitney against QR, Blame Musket Man, and Haynesfield, four of her competitors in the BCC, but she ran in the 300K Hirsch against fillies and mares for the third time instead with only one of that field running in the BC in a restricted race.

[Horsebagger]

Same comment. Same answer. Uh, yes.

I'm not here to educate you. Could care less if you go through a lifetime of enjoyment of the sport ignorant of its history and unable to put things in their proper perspective. If that's how you choose, good luck with that.

[MonmouthGuy]

Same comment. Same answer. Uh, yes.

This is like shooting fish in a barrel, but there is no intellectual consistency in your argument.

On one hand you argue that being "the best KNOWN horse" of all time is more important than being more accomplished per the ranking on any Bloodhorse list.

Assuming you are correct that she would be the best KNOWN horse, and you are not because horse racing was so much more popular among the general public in the last century that certainly the Man O' Wars, Citations and Secreatariats were known by a larger percentage of the genreal public than ANY horse today, how can you also make the argument that the Breeders Cup Classic is the "biggest race of the year."

The BCC last year drew a 1.1 TV rating (it was 0.62 for the Breeders Cup overall), while the Kentucky Derby drew a 10.3/22 share. Ten times as many Americans watched the Kentucky Derby as will watch the Breeders Cup. By definition, wouldn't the Kentucky Derby winner be more "KNOWN" than a Breeders Cup winner? Now being more KNOWN doesn't make the Derby winner a better horse than the Breeders Cup winner (certainly not in reality nor in Bloodhorse lists), but you were the one who was arguing that being more KNOWN is more important than being more accomplished. Which is it?

[Songofthesword]

This is like shooting fish in a barrel, but there is no intellectual consistency in your argument.

On one hand you argue that being "the best KNOWN horse" of all time is more important than the ranking on any Bloodhorse list.

Assuming you are correct that she would be the best KNOWN horse, and you are not because horse racing was so much more popular among the general public in the last century that certainly the Man O' Wars, Citations and Secreatariats were known by a larger percentage of the genreal public than ANY horse today, how can you also make the argument that the Breeders Cup Classic is the "biggest race of the year."

The BCC last year drew a 1.1 TV rating (it was 0.62 for the Breeders Cup overall), while the Kentucky Derby drew a 10.3/22 share. Ten times as many Americans watched the Kentucky Derby as will watch the Breeders Cup. By definition, wouldn't the Kentucky Derby winner be more "KNOWN" than a Breeders Cup winner? Now being more KNOWN doesn't make the Derby winner a better horse than the Breeders Cup winner (certainly in reality and in Bloodhorse lists), but you were the one who was arguing that being more KNOWN is more important.
I gotta say that's a pretty freaking stout argument

[Ty88]

Greatest ever lists are pointless. You decide by "talent", which depends on expressed career and unexpressed potential, or you decide by career, which depends on talent but moreso on humans and luck. Personally I prefer deciding on talent because that's where all horses stand equal, no people to get in the way with their stupid decisions. Just to use the popular example, Zenyatta has all the talent in the world (seriously, forget all your biases and find me another closer who finishes as fast as she does, with those sorts of fractions, and has never lost--despite losing usually being the deep closer's curse of style) but because of her people her career will be lacking when stood up to the careers of certain other horses called great. Or let's use, I don't know, The Tetrarch, undefeated but injured at two. The Euro greats who have less than ten starts--Sea Bird II, etc. Ruffian is also an example. Perception of "talent" as influenced by both what they did and what people believe they could have done.
But that's all subjective.
Even if you go with hard numbers and focus on material career only, mysterious "talent" quality be damned, it's subjective. You've got competition to worry about, and whether or not everybody else thinks that horse's competition were as tough as you do, and whether or not such and such speed record matters because it was on this or that track at this or that time in history. Etc. Blah blah. Etc. And nobody agrees on these things either, even though it seems like math and science and rational thought should hold sway there. But c'mon. How many debates have lived for dozens and dozens of pages over this same kind of "hard proof" crap?
There can't be an objective greatest ever list because the way we judge races and horses isn't objective. Eventually you've just got to go with what most people have in common on their separate lists, and that's how we've come to Man o' War, Secretariat, Citation. I think Zenyatta's up there on talent, partway up there on career. Ignore her annoying fans, get over her synthetic/female field majority. Look at her Breeders' Cups. Especially if she wins this one. Look at her world record for consecutive G1 wins. Throw any other horse onto that record, or show someone in a vacuum that record, someone who has not been biased by her Zealots or the drooling media, and they'd be very, very impressed.
I mean hell, weren't some people talking about Curlin as a potential top-30 in 08?

[Ty88]

midshipman owns a freaking stakes record for crying out loud lol. We aren't taking about stakes records. We are talking about REAL records. World records.

Dr Fager broke the WORLD record for a dirt mile. Big Red Broke the WORLD record for 12F dirt. Man O War still holds the WORLD record for a mile and 5/8ths.

Your post said time record. Not specifically world record. Apologies for not reading your mind.
Hawkster, Told, Kostroma, Toonerville, Paper Junction, Double Discount, With Approval, Mr. Light, Awesome Daze, Soaring Free, and Sabertooth all broke world records too. And Red Giant recently, or whoever that pretty chestnut who retired was. Tom Swift holds the mile and 5/8ths record, not Man o' War. Definitely a list of greatest-ever there. I envy that list.

[Happy Endings]

This is like shooting fish in a barrel, but there is no intellectual consistency in your argument.

On one hand you argue that being "the best KNOWN horse" of all time is more important than being more accomplished per the ranking on any Bloodhorse list.

Assuming you are correct that she would be the best KNOWN horse, and you are not because horse racing was so much more popular among the general public in the last century that certainly the Man O' Wars, Citations and Secreatariats were known by a larger percentage of the genreal public than ANY horse today, how can you also make the argument that the Breeders Cup Classic is the "biggest race of the year."

The BCC last year drew a 1.1 TV rating (it was 0.62 for the Breeders Cup overall), while the Kentucky Derby drew a 10.3/22 share. Ten times as many Americans watched the Kentucky Derby as will watch the Breeders Cup. By definition, wouldn't the Kentucky Derby winner be more "KNOWN" than a Breeders Cup winner? Now being more KNOWN doesn't make the Derby winner a better horse than the Breeders Cup winner (certainly in reality and in Bloodhorse lists), but you were the one who was arguing that being more KNOWN is more important than being more accomplished.

Okay, tell me how many thousands of people are oohing and ahhing over Super Saver right now? If the KD produces horses that are better known...how many people in the general public do you think can name KD winners from the last five years? (other than Barbaro because of his injury). But a horse that retires 20-0 and a mare at that? Who beats the best field of males assembled two years in a row? Give me a break.

They have to remember you first before they can recognize your accomplishments. So, yeah, I would say being known is more important because it has to come first.

And they will know of her because of the rarity of her record. How many times does a horse go 20-0, assuming she does? You can argue all you want about who she beat and this that and the other thing, but all of that won't matter to most people. They will look at her record, see all the G1 wins, and be amazed.

[Songofthesword]

Okay, tell me how many thousands of people are oohing and ahhing over Super Saver right now? If the KD produces horses that are better known...how many people in the general public do you think can name KD winners from the last five years? But a horse that retires 20-0 and a mare at that? Who beats the best field of males assembled two years in a row? Give me a break.
You do realize, that you are literary arguing against your own argument correct lmao?

[Slewbopper]

Ah, but here's the dirty little secret:

OFFICIALLY the race was closed to geldings.

HOWEVER, horses gelded prior to 1919 WERE ALLOWED - grandfathered in. So in truth, Exterminator COULD HAVE entered. (And the weight break was 8lb.)

What does it matter? MOW's only competition was the clock. He broke track records by 5 or more seconds. That translates to 25 lengths faster than any other horse ever ran. He stands alone.

[Slewbopper]

[QUOTE=Songofthesword;131254]Reggie Jackson hitting back to back to back hr's in the playoffs off 3 pitches.

QUOTE]

Interesting you mentioned Reggie. It was not the Playoffs. It was the 6th and final game of the WS against the Dodgers in '78 at Yankee Stadium. He did indeed swing the bat only three times. The third HR was a shot to dead center field with two on that cleared the wall by 30 feet. It was the exclamation point to his perfect game.

Here is his stat line which I know from memory.

3 AB, 4 R, 3 H, 2 BB, 3 HR, 5 RBI.....I will add slugging percentage (4.00)

[Happy Endings]

You do realize, that you are literary arguing against your own argument correct lmao?

in your dreams. I know you can't spell, so I hardly expect much in reading comprehension. LMAO

[gravano]

This is a pretty interesting read if you're interested in how racemares compare with legendary racehorses. It's written by Jane Smiley and talks a lot about Kincsem and Secretariet as well as body structure in general.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/zenyatta-shows-old-ways-still-work/?scp=3&sq=jane%20smiley&st=cse

[islandgirl45]

This is a pretty interesting read if you're interested in how racemares compare with legendary racehorses. It's written by Jane Smiley and talks a lot about Kincsem and Secretariet as well as body structure in general.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/zenyatta-shows-old-ways-still-work/?scp=3&sq=jane%20smiley&st=cse

That was an interesting read, especially this part..."Her breeding is old, old, old, and she looks like an old-fashioned horse — rangy and big, with good bone and enormous hooves."
In fact, I posted a question and answer series yesterday that said she wears a size 7 shoe.

As another point of interest, I recall reading a comment from Jerry Hollendorfer saying he didn't worry about a wet track with Blind Luck because “She’s got massive, great big feet.”
Perhaps that's part of the reason she stays sound as well?

[Songofthesword]

in your dreams. I know you can't spell, so I hardly expect much in reading comprehension. LMAO
Ad Homienem. Try again

Not only that, you have all but given up defending your actual point, so instead of arguing with slewbobber and Monmouth guy, you try to change the subject to "pick on" me.

You are the one that made the KNOWN horse statement, not anyone else.

[Slewbopper]

Ad Homienem. Try again

Not only that, you have all but given up defending your actual point, so instead of arguing with slewbobber and Monmouth guy, you try to change the subject to "pick on" me.

You are the one that made the KNOWN horse statement, not anyone else.

Hey Sots.....ain't it grand that we have a new whipping boy (girl) other than you?

[Songofthesword]

It has it's moments.

[Happy Endings]

Ad Homienem. Try again

Not only that, you have all but given up defending your actual point, so instead of arguing with slewbobber and Monmouth guy, you try to change the subject to "pick on" me.

You are the one that made the KNOWN horse statement, not anyone else.

Hey, just following your lead. You and your two siamese twins are the experts at it.

No defense required. If she wins on Saturday you can just watch it unfold. I'll let time prove me right. It will happen whether you and your buddies approve or not.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

best known horse of all time? Secretariat! Man O War!

Indeed. When I'd survey people at work what horses of a whole list they knew - even if solely "I heard of that" - the only 1s which consistently came up were Sec or MOW. Every one of them knew of either Sec or Man, but not a one would come up with any other horse. Basically they'd only recognize 1 other name, usually the most recent Derby winner (Funny Cide - arrgggh). This was up to 10 years ago.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

I posted a comment on the Zenyatta thread that would make sense here, too. I'm not going to repost the whole thing, but will just say that I think if she wins on Saturday she will likely become the best KNOWN horse of all time. Her story would just be too compelling to be ignored. And to me that's more important than a ranking on the Bloodhorse list. Who outside the racing community even knows about that list? How many know the name of horses like Kelso? No, Zenyatta's name will be far more widely known than any of those horses and you all can argue all you want about who is best, but that won't affect what the general populace thinks. A record of 20-0 while winning the biggest race of the year twice...what a story.

Hate to burst your bubble, but Zenyatta isn't much known outside racing circles. She certainly isn't talked about casually; no-one has ever brought her up to me (nor any horse-racing stuff). I never even overhear anyone discussing, "Hey, there's that horse Zenyatta going for...." Yes, she's gotten some more "mainstream" coverage, but not really to amount to a tinker's damn. I mean, usually some horse is mentioned in Sports Ill every year, so that's not really special unless they did a whole spread on her (last year was a blurb including her and Rachel, with an admittedly nice large photo of Mike waving to Heaven on Zen after the BC). 60 Minutes is good, but still too little too late for her.

I still say I heard more ballyhoo over Funny Cide (rolling eyes) than I have Zenyatta.

So, if Zenyatta really does make waves after this BCC, she may be remembered by Joe Schmoe for a while. But she won't be remembered by him in 10 years. Book it.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

She'll be the best known horse of all time? Ridiculous. And the Classic is looked upon as the biggest race of the year? uhhhh....no.

It should be, but by Regular Joe, it's not. In fact, lots of them think the Derby is the only race.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

They have to remember you first before they can recognize your accomplishments. So, yeah, I would say being known is more important because it has to come first.

Boy oh boy, do you have that backwards.

People have to have a reason to "remember" you - i.e., they start to take notice of your accomplishments.

Then they remember if the accomplishments accumulate.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

What does it matter? MOW's only competition was the clock. He broke track records by 5 or more seconds. That translates to 25 lengths faster than any other horse ever ran. He stands alone.

The point was that MOW was ducking Greats.

It matters when people, who look at individual opposition, say MOW didn't even have to face Exterminator because he was in "restricted" races. Exterminator could've entered, but did not. And 1-1/2 was just on the cusp of Ext's specialty.

Otherwise I agree about time.

[Man o' Taz]

After listening to his interview on 60 Minutes, Mike said that with a win in the BCC, Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever. Obviously this is arguable, but that's the way I see it too.
There.....I got that off my chest. Now let the attacks begin.:)

We are each entitled to our opinion.

Win the Classic and IMHO unless she approaches or breaks Secretariat's record...she does not get there.

She is not the best of all time. Think of it...a three year old horse...sets records in three TC races. Older horses are thought to be better - faster than younger horses. Looking at Zenyatta's times they were faster than Rachel's in many instances last year for the same distance because she was older.

And she for a 20 race career will not have faced open company more than twice...and never more than once in one year.

I know these are championship races, but taking on open company twice in a year I believe is important.

Secretariat in one year did it 4 times...setting a world record...

Whitney
Marlborough Cup
Man o' War
Canadian International

Citation, Kelso, Man o' War, Seattle Slew...Lady Secret...

I do not deny that she COULD be the best ever. I believe that. But her connections never gave us the chance to find out.

[Commentator]

Nobody my age has heard of Man O' War. Secretariat, yes. Man O' War? Noooobody. The only other names I've heard are Smarty Jones (I remember my whole middle school history class followed him) and Barbaro. I've heard Zenyatta mentioned maybe once or twice by much older coworkers.

Non-TC horses simply don't get enough media attention to ever really make it into the public eye. Zenyatta has received more than any horse in recent memory, but she still hasn't graced the cover of Sports Illustrated. Mine that Bird has. I doubt she'll permeate much into public consciousness should she win, it would take a TC winner to do that. Unfair? Probably, but that's the unfortunate state of our sport at present.

However, I do think it is safe to say that should Zenyatta win, she will be one of the most widely-revered horses, among fans of the sport, since Secretariat. Assuming that she's not already and excepting, of course, those who take this fact a little too personally.

[Slewbopper]

Hey, just following your lead. You and your two siamese twins are the experts at it.

No defense required. If she wins on Saturday you can just watch it unfold. I'll let time prove me right. It will happen whether you and your buddies approve or not.


HE...you are dumber than a bag of hammers. I am sure everyone on this board would love to see Z win even if it means losing mnney

[susan]

The point was that MOW was ducking Greats.

It matters when people, who look at individual opposition, say MOW didn't even have to face Exterminator because he was in "restricted" races. Exterminator could've entered, but did not. And 1-1/2 was just on the cusp of Ext's specialty.

Otherwise I agree about time.

Man O' War technically ducked no greats, though he only ran against an older horse in the match at Kennilworth ... As a three year old he picked off the plummy races of the time, and there was no intention to retire before handicap age at that time, and was a proven weight carrier already as his records showed .

Fact is, Willis Sharp Kilmer, owner of Exterminator wanted no part of him, though he certainly accepted challenges and weight .

There was talk of Exterminator joining Sir Barton and MOW for the match as noted in the racing literature of the time, but Kilmer wanted NO part of MOW at weight for age .. Fact ...

That MOW did not run at four nixed all chance of meeting Exterminator, and whether the oft told tale that Sam Riddle was told that MOW would be assigned higher weights than any horse had carried to date was fudged a little or not, it probably was essentially true.

[Prairie Bayou]

I love Mike and I love Zenyatta but I think that statement is stretching it a bit. She would have had to face a lot tougher competition than she has in the past year to make any argument to say she is the greatest racehorse ever. Even saying she is the greatest racemare ever is pushing it. Yes, it's hard to argue against perfection but it's a whole lot easier to be perfect when you are running against horses that are clearly below your standard. No offense to the other fillies and mares she's defeated but IMO she should have taken a Goldikova type campaign this year. Perhaps then we can talk greatest ever. Even the best have been beaten. It's about the journey not just the outcome.

[gravano]

Man O' War technically ducked no greats, though he only ran against an older horse in the match at Kennilworth ... As a three year old he picked off the plummy races of the time, and there was no intention to retire before handicap age at that time, and was a proven weight carrier already as his records showed .

Fact is, Willis Sharp Kilmer, owner of Exterminator wanted no part of him, though he certainly accepted challenges and weight .

There was talk of Exterminator joining Sir Barton and MOW for the match as noted in the racing literature of the time, but Kilmer wanted NO part of MOW at weight for age .. Fact ...



That MOW did not run at four nixed all chance of meeting Exterminator, and whether the oft told tale that Sam Riddle was told that MOW would be assigned higher weights than any horse had carried to date was fudged a little or not, it probably was essentially true.


I guess by that logic Zenyatta technically never ducked anyone either.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

I guess by that logic Zenyatta technically never ducked anyone either.

Zenyatta is a female, and thus has to step up even more to be close to "open". While MOW was a 3yo, he ran against 3yo males - 1 step below the pinnacle, "older males". Until he did that twice later that year. While she's been older, Zen has stepped up but once to "older males". When she was 3yo, she was 2 steps below due to her natural league of "3yo females", and never even stepped up 1 step to 3yo males.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

Man O' War technically ducked no greats, though he only ran against an older horse in the match at Kennilworth ... As a three year old he picked off the plummy races of the time, and there was no intention to retire before handicap age at that time, and was a proven weight carrier already as his records showed .

Fact is, Willis Sharp Kilmer, owner of Exterminator wanted no part of him, though he certainly accepted challenges and weight .

There was talk of Exterminator joining Sir Barton and MOW for the match as noted in the racing literature of the time, but Kilmer wanted NO part of MOW at weight for age .. Fact ...

That MOW did not run at four nixed all chance of meeting Exterminator, and whether the oft told tale that Sam Riddle was told that MOW would be assigned higher weights than any horse had carried to date was fudged a little or not, it probably was essentially true.

Well, it's a fact Kilmer didn't want to race at 1-1/4 mi against them. His breaking point seemed to be about 1-1/2, and since MOW and SB agreed to the former conditions of Kenilworth (as well as the reward), Ext was out.

[Dave in TJMex]

Well, it's a fact Kilmer didn't want to race at 1-1/4 mi against them. His breaking point seemed to be about 1-1/2, and since MOW and SB agreed to the former conditions of Kenilworth (as well as the reward), Ext was out.

This is what I love about TBC!

Spirited debates about horses and horse races from NINETY years ago! :hat:

[BARNFOUR]

This is what I love about TBC!

Spirited debates about horses and horse races from NINETY years ago! :hat:

Jesus,ninety years isn't that long ago.....

[Horse's Rear]

However, I do think it is safe to say that should Zenyatta win, she will be one of the most widely-revered horses, among fans of the sport, since Secretariat.
I think your prediction is mistaken. I hope we have a chance to find out.

[Slewbopper]

[QUOTE=Man o' Taz;131530]
I
Secretariat in one year did it 4 times...setting a world record...

Whitney
Marlborough Cup
Man o' War
Canadian International

QUOTE]

Taz....you forgot the Woodward, a race in which he placed behind Prove Out. Prove Out's time of 2:25.4 is still the second fastest 1 1/2 mile ever run at Belmont. Sec's Marlboro was a world record and the 1 1/2 MOW and 1 5/8 Can Int'l were both track records

[Pronzini]

If Zenyatta wins, it won't change anything. People don't like to admit they were wrong especially after years. The most gracious I can see among the entrenched will be great horse--bad owners--I was right to dislike. Others will point out some bad trip or bad race that their favorite horse had and imply it really wasn't as deep a field as they thought originally.

And if Zenyatta loses--katey bar the door on the "I told you sos".

[MR.W]

If Zenyatta wins, it won't change anything. People don't like to admit they were wrong especially after years. The most gracious I can see among the entrenched will be great horse--bad owners--I was right to dislike. Others will point out some bad trip or bad race that their favorite horse had and imply it really wasn't as deep a field as they thought originally.

And if Zenyatta loses--katey bar the door on the "I told you sos".

BINGO! Her detractors have been waiting two years to see her lose and say "I told you so". After her win in the BCC last year, which many thought she could not do simply because of her previous Beyers and "lack of speed":), many on this forum said the field was weak, etc., etc., etc. Excuses abound from Z's detractors as she keeps on winning. For me, I just feel she's that much better than the rest.

[gravano]

How much of being a horse for the ages depends on the age you raced in?
Man O' War had a huge, rapt following (without any gambling interest) even though most of his races weren't in very competitive fields. But, like Seabiscuit, people got behind the horse as something positive, spectacular, rare and dependable in dark times (World War). Zenyatta has all those qualities.

I don't think it's about track records or competition faced as much as it is capturing the hearts of so many people.

I'm not willing to say Zenyatta is equal to the horses mentioned above, but her races and this week leading up to the big race, she's made me think back on the greats to gauge how she compares.

[PerfectSoul]

I love Miss Z but no way on the Secretariat question, as far as running. I think Sec showed greater versatility and overall power. But to me Zenyatta is the "people's princess" and will always be remembered by generations of racing fans. In that sense, she is every bit Secretariat's equal in greatness.

[Ty88]

Zenyatta is a female, and thus has to step up even more to be close to "open". While MOW was a 3yo, he ran against 3yo males - 1 step below the pinnacle, "older males". Until he did that twice later that year. While she's been older, Zen has stepped up but once to "older males". When she was 3yo, she was 2 steps below due to her natural league of "3yo females", and never even stepped up 1 step to 3yo males.

So if Man 'o War "stepped up" twice, if Zenyatta wins this Classic she'll have stepped up twice also. If she wins the biggest open race in the country twice, a race that includes international fields, will she still be faulted for "not stepping up"?

[Kramer]

Zenyatta, better than Dr. Fager or Brigadier Gerard? Negative.

I wouldnt even put her in the class with Kelso, Citation, Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Damascus etc. She'd need to break the track record in the Classic to start getting into the discussion with those guys.

As it stands, I consider Zenyatta the 3rd best filly/mare alltime. (North America) I wont bother stating the two above her on my list for the sake of not derailing the thread any further. :)

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

So if Man 'o War "stepped up" twice, if Zenyatta wins this Classic she'll have stepped up twice also. If she wins the biggest open race in the country twice, a race that includes international fields, will she still be faulted for "not stepping up"?

Zenyatta took at least 2 years to step up twice. And that was when she was already older.

As for the "international" flavor, I'm iffy on that because seriously only Americans run dirt (although syntrack plays better to turf, so last year was good for the foreigners from that standpoint), basically, while the others are untried. I think this year is better than last, because it's real dirt, and we have real good dirt horses running on it so we know how they should fare.

I'll give her credit, but if she can't do much in terms of TRs after all that female-running, I'm not sure I'd say she's even best female of the "modern" era, whatever that is.

[MR.W]

I'll give her credit, but if she can't do much in terms of TRs after all that female-running, I'm not sure I'd say she's even best female of the "modern" era, whatever that is.
With her style of running why would you even look at TRs? Aren't all the grade 1's, money earned, undefeated record, two BC wins, maybe three, and two Classic wins enough?

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

With her style of running why would you even look at TRs? Aren't all the grade 1's, money earned, undefeated record, two BC wins, maybe three, and two Classic wins enough?


Secretariat had that running style and managed to set records; multiples. So have other closers.

It's an indicator of sheer talent, and if she doesn't have it - well, we have no evidence besides beating decent horses.

It's very nice, and it really is something to hold up for so many wins consecutively - but I'm not sold on the "best ever" in any category, yet. Perhaps with some more thought, she'd win some category. Right now, I don't think so.

[gravano]

It's an indication of sheer talent or that the track had been scraped.

[halo]

Zenyatta has an incredible fan base that think she is the best of all time, or the best female of all time. Personally, I wouldnt give her best female of the last 50 years; I can think of several that would tower over her. Dahlia comes to mind, Miesque, that Australian filly from a few years ago (name escapes me), All Along, Shuvee. Im sure theres more.

[Miss Woodford]

With 52 races (6 non-races called "walk-overs") in the always-renowned racing environments of Austria, Hungary and Germany, not on your life.
And France, and England. She really did face the best horses in all of Europe at the time-she truely dodged no one, and no one dodged her. Whether or not you've heard of any of her opponents does not mitigate the fact that she was beating up on winners of the German Derby, German Oaks, Yorkshire Oaks, Brighton Cup, Doncaster Cup, Chester Cup, French 2000 Guineas, English classics, and so on. While carrying up to 160.5 lbs and often giving 20+lbs away to opponents. And running at distances from 4.5 furlongs to 2.5 miles. And often running races a couple days apart. It is difficult to compare horses from this era to that era, but her record really stands for itself.

A thing about Eclipse, who as we all know went 18 for 18. He walked to race meetings held all over England-a total of 1,400 miles. Imagine if they had trailers back then...

[gravano]

he had to walk through 3 feet of snow to all his races in the olden days. yeah, yeah.
:hat:

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

It's an indication of sheer talent or that the track had been scraped.

Yeah, right. Multiple times over.

When the horse finishes well ahead of the 2nd or 3rd horse, it's an indication the HORSE is talented, not the track.

[the Ol'Line Rebel]

And France, and England. She really did face the best horses in all of Europe at the time-she truely dodged no one, and no one dodged her. Whether or not you've heard of any of her opponents does not mitigate the fact that she was beating up on winners of the German Derby, German Oaks, Yorkshire Oaks, Brighton Cup, Doncaster Cup, Chester Cup, French 2000 Guineas, English classics, and so on. While carrying up to 160.5 lbs and often giving 20+lbs away to opponents. And running at distances from 4.5 furlongs to 2.5 miles. And often running races a couple days apart. It is difficult to compare horses from this era to that era, but her record really stands for itself.

Which is why I stated she had 52 of those 54 races in the illustrious racing states of Germany, Hungary and Austria. Sorry, they don't much cut it. All of 2 races in the others. The Goodwood had just 2 other starters, and was not the choice, despite the "big" horse being injured.

Of course, she raced alot in each season. Something like 15-17 races/season. That in itself is highly respectable, to pull that off winningly.

She was a good horse, but she was a decently bred English horse in a 2-bit pond.

[Allspice]

Zenyatta has an incredible fan base that think she is the best of all time, or the best female of all time. Personally, I wouldnt give her best female of the last 50 years; I can think of several that would tower over her. Dahlia comes to mind, Miesque, that Australian filly from a few years ago (name escapes me), All Along, Shuvee. Im sure theres more.

You're probably thinking of Makybe Diva, but I honestly think Sunline was better than she was.

To keep this post OT, I think Zenyatta is the best horse I've seen (I've been following racing since '98 and the horse that had that spot previously was Skip Away). How she compares to horses from the past? IDK. But win or lose in the Classic, she is at the top of my list.

[Horse's Rear]

Which is why I stated she had 52 of those 54 races in the illustrious racing states of Germany, Hungary and Austria. Sorry, they don't much cut it. All of 2 races in the others. The Goodwood had just 2 other starters, and was not the choice, despite the "big" horse being injured.

Of course, she raced alot in each season. Something like 15-17 races/season. That in itself is highly respectable, to pull that off winningly.

She was a good horse, but she was a decently bred English horse in a 2-bit pond.
No one can ever be compelled to learn.

[Apollo]

I'm thrilled we finally have an American horse who legitimately belongs in the discussion, after a gap of what, 30 years? Since Spectacular Bid.

Everyone else has been forced, including Cigar, and Ghostzapper, who had very rare ability but sorry, the modern day requirements are different for males. If you didn't prove it in the Triple Crown races you don't enter the discussion. That's why I always have to chuckle at the nods to Dr. Fager, including several times in this thread. Awesome speed. Wonderful. He ducked the Classics. You don't get a pass for that. His reputation would very likely not be the same if he'd entered those gates.

Speed obsessed handicappers like Andy Beyer are comical in their lack of logical adjustment. On this forum I've been impressed that a figures guy like Matt Converse can adapt to situations, including criticism of Dr. Fager for passing those races, and not falling for the Sham malarkey. Two fairly close losses into fast times on scraped tracks don't warrant legend status, regardless who finished in front of him.

Of course, none of the speed guys are infatuated with Zenyatta. I hope they scratch their heads again.

In the 40+ years I've followed the sport, the freakish talents are few -- (chronologically) Secretariat, Ruffian, Slew, Bid, Zenyatta. Ghostzapper is demoted on age and outings. A few others like Hoist the Flag and Landaluce didn't have enough opportunity. I hate to leave off Affirmed. That's the closest call. He was more tenacious and adaptable than brilliant. I always thought the proximity in ability to Alydar served to inflate both of them, particularly in relation to Slew. I can't imagine a world in which Slew never faced Affirmed. The conventional wisdom toward that outcome wouldn't have threatened reality.

Anyway, back to this topic, my fear is exactly the opposite of many posters. If Zenyatta fails there's more danger -- in fact a certainty -- that her ability will be understated in historical terms, far beyond any threat she'll receive overboard status with a win. In fact, I'm sure many posters here and elsewhere will have the gloating comments already written and ready to "Submit" , in pathetic desperation for the huge mare's final rally to fall short.

A deep closer at 20-20 would defy such mathematical and tactical and racing luck logic that Zenyatta would have earned a slotting far above anything she will be granted.

Besides, I'd love to have the most earnest Secretariat fans squirm at any suggestion of an equal or near equal. That's always a defensive and dependable treat. :biggrin1:

[Unknown Factor]

I'm thrilled we finally have an American horse who legitimately belongs in the discussion, after a gap of what, 30 years? Since Spectacular Bid.

Everyone else has been forced, including Cigar, and Ghostzapper, who had very rare ability but sorry, the modern day requirements are different for males. If you didn't prove it in the Triple Crown races you don't enter the discussion. That's why I always have to chuckle at the nods to Dr. Fager, including several times in this thread. Awesome speed. Wonderful. He ducked the Classics. You don't get a pass for that. His reputation would very likely not be the same if he'd entered those gates.

Speed obsessed handicappers like Andy Beyer are comical in their lack of logical adjustment. On this forum I've been impressed that a figures guy like Matt Converse can adapt to situations, including criticism of Dr. Fager for passing those races, and not falling for the Sham malarkey. Two fairly close losses into fast times on scraped tracks don't warrant legend status, regardless who finished in front of him.

Of course, none of the speed guys are infatuated with Zenyatta. I hope they scratch their heads again.

In the 40+ years I've followed the sport, the freakish talents are few -- (chronologically) Secretariat, Ruffian, Slew, Bid, Zenyatta. Ghostzapper is demoted on age and outings. A few others like Hoist the Flag and Landaluce didn't have enough opportunity. I hate to leave off Affirmed. That's the closest call. He was more tenacious and adaptable than brilliant. I always thought the proximity in ability to Alydar served to inflate both of them, particularly in relation to Slew. I can't imagine a world in which Slew never faced Affirmed. The conventional wisdom toward that outcome wouldn't have threatened reality.

Anyway, back to this topic, my fear is exactly the opposite of many posters. If Zenyatta fails there's more danger -- in fact a certainty -- that her ability will be understated in historical terms, far beyond any threat she'll receive overboard status with a win. In fact, I'm sure many posters here and elsewhere will have the gloating comments already written and ready to "Submit" , in pathetic desperation for the huge mare's final rally to fall short.

A deep closer at 20-20 would defy such mathematical and tactical and racing luck logic that Zenyatta would have earned a slotting far above anything she will be granted.

Besides, I'd love to have the most earnest Secretariat fans squirm at any suggestion of an equal or near equal. That's always a defensive and dependable treat. :biggrin1:

If you really think Zenyatta could come close to Fager at anything under 1 1/4 you're delusional. Without a rabbit, he would have had her measure at 1 1/4 too. I think it's quite funny that you hold his schedule against him (no triple crown), while you seem to not hold Zenyatta's EXPONENTIALLY easier schedule against her. Nice double standard.

[Slewbopper]

To keep this post OT, I think Zenyatta is the best horse I've seen (I've been following racing since '98 and the horse that had that spot previously was Skip Away). How she compares to horses from the past? IDK. But win or lose in the Classic, she is at the top of my list.

Allspice. Comparing greatness is subjective. Since you have been following the sport for 12 years, comparing greatness is within your time frame. The horses you have seen to compare is relatively small. Since I started in '77, my list is much longer. It is a hard thing to be objective about. I started after Secretariat and Ruffian so I probably give them less credit than they deserve.

I have a feeling that anyone that is still with us who was a fan in the 40s probably thinks Citation was the greatest of all time. It is hard to argue with his '48 campaign of 19 for 20 at distances of 6 furs(beating HOY Armed in Feb) to 2 miles (JCGC) with a TC and the Jersey Derby wedged between the Preakness and Belmont.

[Ty88]

I'll give her credit, but if she can't do much in terms of TRs after all that female-running, I'm not sure I'd say she's even best female of the "modern" era, whatever that is.

Secretariat had that running style and managed to set records; multiples. So have other closers.


Secretariat and Zenyatta have substantially different styles.
In every race he set a speed record except one--the Kentucky Derby--Secretariat did NOT close. In the Gotham Stakes he led wire to wire; in the Preakness he took the lead on the first turn; I don't need to explain the Belmont; in the Marlboro Cup he was within three lengths of the lead on the backstretch; in the Man o' War he took the lead out of the gate. When he *did* run like a dead closer he didn't set records. Hmm.

Zenyatta doesn't do what Secretariat did. If the fractions were too slow for Sec or if he felt frisky that day he went to the lead. In the races he set records (except one) he took control of the front fractions. Zenyatta never does. She is always at the mercy of whoever's up front, and yes, that does affect the final time. She's closed in :22 before, almost always in :23, and usually with 6 or 5 second half-furlongs. She has set stakes records and a track record, run the second-fastest Ladies' Classic and the third-fastest Classic. Most of her records were set before 09, before everybody got it into their heads to run as slow as possible up front to try to beat her.

All this is to say I think holding a lack of speed records against a dead closer (look at her fractions, look at her late pace figures--she is brilliantly fast once she starts moving) is incorrect.

Who are these other record-setting closers? Show me the closer who takes the lead after the final turn (as Zenyatta does) and manages to erase what the frontrunners in his race ran. He'd have to run faster than :22 and :05, because that's what Zenyatta does and it's apparently not good enough.