Empire Maker to Japan [Archive] - Thoroughbred Champions

Harrison Bergeron

11-12-2010, 01:40 PM

Per Ed DeRosa of the Thoroughbred Times. Watch their site for more.

"Juddmonte has sold Empire Maker to JBBA for stud duty in Japan"
http://twitter.com/EJXD2/status/3213293917306880

I'll make some popcorn while waiting for the "OMG we better watch out for him, remember what they did to Ferdinand" posts.

The money is in that neck of the woods, I'm sure we'll see more horses sent to places that are in a better financial position.

Somnambulist

11-12-2010, 01:42 PM

wooley85

11-12-2010, 01:47 PM

I'll make some popcorn while waiting for the "OMG we better watch out for him, remember what they did to Ferdinand" posts.

The money is in that neck of the woods, I'm sure we'll see more horses sent to places that are in a better financial position.

The fact is Japan does NOT have alot of open land. If a stallion or mare doesn't live up to expectations, there is no where for them to:deadhorse: go...Japan does not have "horse rescues" or "retirements"
If horses cannot breed and produce successfully, they have no purpose there. That is a FACT.

Jas

11-12-2010, 02:09 PM

Someone told me this the other day and I said no possible way. Wow. He's already gone, by the way.

halo

11-12-2010, 02:11 PM

flytothestars

11-12-2010, 02:13 PM

Wow i am shocked about this. Juddmonte gave no hint when i visited the recent summer. They loved this horse, it is so obvious- talked a lot about him unlike the other boys they had and also tugged on his tongue. so cute.

Sorry to see him go.

TBird

11-12-2010, 02:24 PM

I'm shocked. If it were another owner, I'd chalk it up to the inability to turn down that big of offer, but with this owner? Puzzling.

That's how I feel. Did not see this one coming.

halo

11-12-2010, 02:26 PM

He'll probably have a Triple Crown winner next year.

Squally

11-12-2010, 02:38 PM

I'm shocked. If it were another owner, I'd chalk it up to the inability to turn down that big of offer, but with this owner? Puzzling.

I too was shocked, but you know, Empire Maker has had some nice runners, but NOT with Juddmonte. All those great mares of theirs that he was bred to and what do they have to show for it? They're also selling a lot of their first crop fillies at Keeneland too.

wooley85

11-12-2010, 02:42 PM

So what is their purpose here if they cannot breed and produce successfully?

They have a chance of avoiding the dog food can...:deadhorse: to retire somewhere

wooley85

11-12-2010, 02:45 PM

So what is their purpose here if they cannot breed and produce successfully?
They have a chance of avoiding the dog food can...:deadhorse: to retire somewhere or find second career.

You must be one of those people in FL that "eats their unproductive"mares to make that comment.

mariasmon

11-12-2010, 02:48 PM

:jaw::jaw::jaw::jaw:

FlowerEssence

11-12-2010, 02:54 PM

Wow.

I have no doubt Empire Maker will NOT end up at the slaughterhouse, but certainly his unsuccessful get will.

Starine

11-12-2010, 03:08 PM

I didn't see this coming either, but I've always thought he's underperformed with the breathtaking quality of mares he had been receiving.

Songofthesword

11-12-2010, 03:25 PM

it make sense, he really is a turf sire at the end of the day. they value that more over there than we do here.

sad to see him go though.

Miss Woodford

11-12-2010, 03:31 PM

Wow.

I have no doubt Empire Maker will NOT end up at the slaughterhouse, but certainly his unsuccessful get will.
They would in the USA too.

You're forgetting that many stallion stations, including the JBBA, are located in the rural island of Hokkaido, and Japanese farms DO pension their studs. There's definitely a Ferdinand clause in the sales contract.

As we've learned, even relatively successful stallions are not immune from being sent abroad. See: Black Tie Affair, Victory Gallop, Lion Heart, Cuvee, Johannesburg, Dehere, Stravinsky, Wild Rush, Afleet, Coronado's Quest, Forty Niner...

Songofthesword

11-12-2010, 03:36 PM

the more i think about it the more it just makes sense. eh's a pefect japanese stallion. favors turf but can get you a good dirt horse, will run all day doesn't have any sunday silence blood.

halo

11-12-2010, 03:38 PM

They have a chance of avoiding the dog food can...:deadhorse: to retire somewhere or find second career.

You must be one of those people in FL that "eats their unproductive"mares to make that comment.

I just find it extremely arrogant that Americans think they take care of their horses so much better than anyone else in the world, and give them long retirements. You might be stunned to know how many horses have been put down because they are "unproductive".....here......not there.

Bozo

11-12-2010, 03:45 PM

Hate to see horses going to Japan....especially this one.

reverberate

11-12-2010, 03:47 PM

really? really?:confused: an up and coming stallion and they give him to japan ? i thought thats what battle plan was for

wooley85

11-12-2010, 04:34 PM

I just find it extremely arrogant that Americans think they take care of their horses so much better than anyone else in the world, and give them long retirements. You might be stunned to know how many horses have been put down because they are "unproductive".....here......not there.

Hardly.

Your naive statement above just demonstrates how out of touch YOU are.
I doubt anyone who CLOSELY follows racing in the US is not aware of the plight of race horses after they cannot run. In Japan, there are no IF's, and's and but's about their fate.

Can't YOU understand the English language? Obviously, NOT.

No where did I state we treat horses better....only that SOMETIMES American sensibilities lead people to try to give SOME horses a "second chance in life".

Psychotic Parakeet

11-12-2010, 04:56 PM

I am surprised by the news too. However, I am not surprised about the xenophobia that has ensued on this thread.

Allspice

11-12-2010, 04:56 PM

What the heck? He was doing pretty well. Darn it...:sad: It least there are Japanese posters here who will let us know how his babies are doing in Japan.

wooley85

11-12-2010, 05:58 PM

I am surprised by the news too. However, I am not surprised about the xenophobia that has ensued on this thread.

Oh, you finally can use a big word". Too bad you don't use it accurately.

Xenophobia has nothing to do with my comments. The FACT is excess horses in Japan go directly the slaughter house...

EXACTLY, why do YOU think, US sellers now attach contract convenents to horses sold to Japan among other places that state the SELLER be notified when the horse has reached the end of the road so they may be expatriated back to the US?

You think all these breeders and farms that do this are xenophobic? What a dummy.

Miss Woodford

11-12-2010, 06:25 PM

Hardly.

Your naive statement above just demonstrates how out of touch YOU are.
I doubt anyone who CLOSELY follows racing in the US is not aware of the plight of race horses after they cannot run. In Japan, there are no IF's, and's and but's about their fate.

Can't YOU understand the English language? Obviously, NOT.

No where did I state we treat horses better....only that SOMETIMES American sensibilities lead people to try to give SOME horses a "second chance in life".
OTTBs are commonly used as riding horses in Japan. Due to the expense of keeping horses in urban environments, there are many riding centers which rent out horses and give lessons, and Thoroughbreds are often used, as that is by far the most common breed of horse in Japan. Other OTTBs are used as track ponies or sport horses. There is a small but growing equestrian culture in Japan. So no, the failed racehorses are not doomed to be slaughtered.

Starine

11-12-2010, 08:10 PM

My goodness, Wooley; who spit in your bean curd today?

uma_nosuke

11-13-2010, 02:41 AM

The fact is Japan does NOT have alot of open land. If a stallion or mare doesn't live up to expectations, there is no where for them to:deadhorse: go...Japan does not have "horse rescues" or "retirements"
If horses cannot breed and produce successfully, they have no purpose there. That is a FACT.

That's surprising news and, frankly, I feel :embarassed: and :smow: for that again.

This might not be what you expect from us, but, for instance, an incorporated NPO named HorseTrust after the National Trust in Britain takes care of retired horses.

Any horse --including riding horses, TBs, indigenous horses, etc., although male horses should be gelded-- can be accepted for the cost of about $300 a month (=30,000yen). Also an equine foster-parent system is adopted for anyone interested in a specific horse to be able to support him or her financially. For instance, famous G1 horses like Taiki Blizzard (Seattle Slew), who raced in the BCC twice and in the BC Mile once, spends their remaining years side by side with other horses, say, an old riding horse from my daughter's riding club. Now 58 horses are left in their cares at this one place.

photo galleries of HorseTrust: http://www.horse-trust.jp/17photo/photo.html

tachyon

11-13-2010, 03:15 AM

I was surprised by this news, too, especially because he was a Juddmonte stallion.

I saw Empire Maker in person twice – in the Wood Memorial and in the Belmont. As I was a big Funny Cide fan, his Belmont victory remains one of my bitter-sweet memories. Still, I felt sorry for Empire Maker, who was not well received by the fans in New York, as he made his appearance on the post parade and came back to the winners circle.
He was a distinguished-looking racehorse with an inherent dignity. It was always great to hear that he was doing well at the Juddmonte stud I really liked.

I am NOT happy with this transfer that has come soon after Arrow Stud had bought Battle Plan, even if I believe that JBBA will take good care of him. But now that the deal was done, my only hope is that Empire Maker will get the respect he deserves in Japan as much as he did at Juddmonte. And it will be great, if he will go back to his home country some day.

jenn52318

11-13-2010, 04:57 AM

I was surprised to hear as well as I had thought he was doing decently at stud. Now about the slaughter thing, personally I would not eat horse meat, but at the same time it does not bother me. For some horses it is a far better fate than where they end up if they go to slaughterhouse designed to handle horses. I guess I have seen too many people "rescue" and starve these poor horses that yes there are cases I would have rather they go to a slaughterhouse before they were starved and abused. There are also quite a few horses that come off the track that are just not suitable, they aren't quite sound enough and calm enough to do just trail riding or be someones pet, and a more advanced person is not going to want a horse that can't hold up to their work. So what do you do with a horse that would be suitable for low level work due to soundness but isn't suitable personality wise for low level riders? Well usually someone is stupid enough to sell to some uneducated (about horses) person and it doesn't work, so they try to sell and usually it is down hill from there. Although this applies to more than just OTTB's and to all breeds, just another point of view.

BigCountry

11-13-2010, 05:32 AM

Um, since they have Empire Maker now, does that mean I can have Battle Plan back?

No?

Damn.

Hermes

11-13-2010, 08:28 AM

Is Juddmonte going to sell the KY farm?

Jas

11-13-2010, 09:46 AM

I know of one big Kentucky stud farm selling part of their property. But it's not them.

Slewfan2

11-13-2010, 09:52 AM

He's a good sire, not great - I don't think he's lived up to expectations - but he shouldn't have been exported. I'm pretty shocked that Juddmonte would give up on him.

Hermes

11-13-2010, 10:00 AM

I know of one big Kentucky stud farm selling part of their property. But it's not them.

I thought that farm was taking a partner for a large position to be able to pay the significant debt?

On Juddmonte, I am just wondering if they are downsizing the KY farm and going to bring most of the horses to Europe? The land it sits on is particularly valuable.

Jas

11-13-2010, 10:04 AM

I don't think we're talking about the same farm.

summerhorse

11-13-2010, 07:52 PM

Flanders

11-13-2010, 09:09 PM

How long as he been at Juddmonte? It doesn't even seem that it has been time for him to get runners FROM Juddmonte? I am really surprised they are shipping him off. I can't imagine they have money troubles? Seems odd.

He has stood at Juddmonte his entire career. He went to stud in 04, first foals born in 05. I think the main thing might be he hasn't sired anything of note with the Juddmonte mares and he got the cream of their broodmare band.

Tappiano

11-14-2010, 10:10 AM

The market wants a three year old virgin more then they want a Juddmonte horse. He was not going to attract enough mares next year to warrant turning down the deal.

Hermes

11-14-2010, 10:17 AM

He was going to attract plenty of mares in 2011. But much of his book (any JM stallion) is their own mares, too.

I would guess it was more about the 15 million price range they were offered for him now, when they want to downsize US operation, and as fine a sire as he is, EM had not seen the level of success with their racing program that they wished to see. I think if Frankel were still alive to train the progeny here, then EM might have stayed.

First year sires are not popular or the reason he was sold. EM was proven. Everyone wants proven horses now instead, and the yearling averages reflected this in 2010. When the market was at the top is back when the first year flavors were hot. Not many can afford the risk now with the market down and credit so tight.

Jas

11-14-2010, 10:27 AM

The market wants a three year old virgin more then they want a Juddmonte horse. He was not going to attract enough mares next year to warrant turning down the deal.

He would have been one of the very first booked full. Ask any agent in Kentucky, support for him from outside breeders was huge. Not to mention he was having a terrific commercial year to boot. Based on this year's yearlings, his median was in the top 10, before a lot of other very high priced stallions.

Whatever the reason for selling, (I'm guessing the offer was outrageously huge) it wasn't because of a lack of interest or support in the horse.

Edit: It's also worth pointing out a big percentage of mares sent to him in his first few seasons were very Euro/turfy. Many, if not most of those resulting foals found themselves in training in Europe. And while I think he can get a good turf horse, I don't believe that helped him in the performance stats. Once they started to transition to synthetics and dirt, he started getting true high quality horses.

Harrison Bergeron

11-14-2010, 10:33 AM

How long as he been at Juddmonte? It doesn't even seem that it has been time for him to get runners FROM Juddmonte? I am really surprised they are shipping him off. I can't imagine they have money troubles? Seems odd.

Indian Charlie (http://www.indiancharlie.com/2010/11/13/sunday-november-14-2010/) hints at that, but that's just Indian Charlie.................

Something to think about He's considered a US horse. He was foaled in the US, but.
Bred by Saudi Arabians
Owned by Saudi Arabians
Raced by Saudi Arabians
Stood on a farmed owned by Saudi Arabians

I don't think they give a rat sass about the fact that he's an American horse.

Hermes

11-14-2010, 10:43 AM

Indian Charlie (http://www.indiancharlie.com/2010/11/13/sunday-november-14-2010/) hints at that, but that's just Indian Charlie.................

Something to think about He's considered a US horse. He was foaled in the US, but.
Bred by Saudi Arabians
Owned by Saudi Arabians
Raced by Saudi Arabians
Stood on a farmed owned by Saudi Arabians

I don't think they give a rat sass about the fact that he's an American horse.

Not sure what you are getting at, since many horses are bred and owned by non US residents here, but I would guess the downslide of US racing, and the loss of their revered US trainer had a lot to do with any decision to possibly downsize (or maybe even close) the US farm. Street Cry was born in Ireland as I recall. Should Mo send him back there now?

Hermes

11-14-2010, 10:50 AM

Assuming he gets around 118 of the 138 mares he was bred to this year in foal, that is almost 6 million on the books in income (and that includes JM's own mares bred to him as they didn't pay an outside stud fee so they use the expense of his stud fee for the cost of the mares in accounting - all farms do.) So I would guess the offer was upwards of 18-20 mil and he will stand for 80k US dollars (or more) in Japan compared to the 50k US here. The yen is strong against the dollar and they are buying big in KY right now.

TBird

11-14-2010, 10:56 AM

The market wants a three year old virgin more then they want a Juddmonte horse. He was not going to attract enough mares next year to warrant turning down the deal.

He was booked full early last year (before Christmas) and would have been the same this year. He was on a lot of breeders' lists for 2011, including ours.

If there is anything the market currently doesn't want, it's a three year old virgin. Witness the stud fees set for this year's two big horses Quality Road and Blame.

halo

11-14-2010, 10:57 AM

I think the Japanese are desperate for an outcross for Sunday Silence and all his top quality sons that they have. They can afford to buy a really good stallions that we have here, and Empire Maker is their type of stallion. I believe they have many more distance races than we do, and he fits to a T.

TBird

11-14-2010, 11:00 AM

Something to think about He's considered a US horse. He was foaled in the US, but.
Bred by Saudi Arabians
Owned by Saudi Arabians
Raced by Saudi Arabians
Stood on a farmed owned by Saudi Arabians

I don't think they give a rat sass about the fact that he's an American horse.

Kentucky has its backward moments but it's been a long, long time since anybody in the business gave a rat's *** about the nationality of the breeder or owner of a stallion.

Hermes

11-14-2010, 11:03 AM

He was booked full early last year (before Christmas) and would have been the same this year. He was on a lot of breeders' lists for 2011, including ours.

If there is anything the market currently doesn't want, it's a three year old virgin. Witness the stud fees set for this year's two big horses Quality Road and Blame.

Great point. They are 50-60k stallions at a minimum entering 2008.

Harrison Bergeron

11-14-2010, 11:08 AM

Not sure what you are getting at, since many horses are bred and owned by non US residents here, but I would guess the downslide of US racing, and the loss of their revered US trainer had a lot to do with any decision to possibly downsize (or maybe even close) the US farm. Street Cry was born in Ireland as I recall. Should Mo send him back there now?

I'm just making an observation. I'm not crying that they're sending our horses away. In the grand scheme of things, horses are simply personal property, and the owner can do whatever he wants with them so long as the laws of the land are obeyed.
All of our horses came from somewhere else.
I have no problem with this transaction at all.
It's only going to get "worse" as the US falls further into financial problems.

We sit here and type on our Chinese made computers about the world situation, upgrading every time something new comes up. Meanwhile with "our" money, they're getting richer, have more disposable income, and are building new racing facilities that will make most in the world look like Fairmount Park.

We will see a lot more of "our" horses going overseas.

EquineAnne

11-14-2010, 04:51 PM

I'm just making an observation. I'm not crying that they're sending our horses away. In the grand scheme of things, horses are simply personal property, and the owner can do whatever he wants with them so long as the laws of the land are obeyed.
All of our horses came from somewhere else.
I have no problem with this transaction at all.
It's only going to get "worse" as the US falls further into financial problems.

We sit here and type on our Chinese made computers about the world situation, upgrading every time something new comes up. Meanwhile with "our" money, they're getting richer, have more disposable income, and are building new racing facilities that will make most in the world look like Fairmount Park.

We will see a lot more of "our" horses going overseas.

How'bout it. And God knows what else.

DJSun

11-15-2010, 04:01 PM

After the horror of finding out what happened to Ferdinand, I think every loved horse has a clause as to what happens when its time to fully retire. I recently read that the Japanese slaughter and consume 75% of their horses. After they have done their tour of duty, bring them back for a peaceful retirement at Old Friends. That is for the good to great stallions. The underbelly is the also rans that once they have outlived their use are supposedly sold or given to someone that wanted a nice horse. At least once a week, a starving or abused horse is found in Miami Dade county florida or rescued from the illegal slaughter farms that populate the rural landscape. The tattoo is traced and some highly respectable farms (yes, Kentucky) have given away the horse, don't remember to whom, or where they lived. There is no paper trail. These same farms know exactly how many oats their stars have consumed that day.

I am sure Empire Maker will be fine and treated like a King and will be back on US soil when he is officially retired. then he will be treated like a King here. Don't you wish all the gentle four legged souls could get the same loving and royal treatment?

susan

11-15-2010, 04:14 PM

---[QUOTE=jenn52318;138736] . Now about the slaughter thing, personally I would not eat horse meat, but at the same time it does not bother me. For some horses it is a far better fate than where they end up if they go to slaughterhouse designed to handle horses.QUOTE]

American--and I might add now Canadian and Mexican slaughterhouses were never designed to handle horses--where have you been ???

If they were designed for anything at all, it was for bovines, by Dr. Grandin.

Unless you believe horses are cows in temperament and cranial architecture, it should rather bother you .

flytothestars

11-16-2010, 03:05 AM

I was just on Juddmonte's website and noticed that Aptitude name is no longer there. I am assuming he is sold to South America? - was told he shuttles to one farm there.

Harrison Bergeron

11-16-2010, 03:35 AM

I was just on Juddmonte's website and noticed that Aptitude name is no longer there. I am assuming he is sold to South America? - was told he shuttles to one farm there.

Perhaps not going broke as Indian Charlie (http://www.indiancharlie.com/2010/11/13/sunday-november-14-2010/) asks, but maybe scaling back.

http://i56.tinypic.com/2w1tc29.jpg

LBM

02-01-2011, 12:17 AM

He will leave quarantine at yokohama tomorrow. He looks good and will arrive at jbba on thursday.

tachyon

02-02-2011, 05:15 AM

He will leave quarantine at yokohama tomorrow. He looks good and will arrive at jbba on thursday.

Thanks LBM for the news!
Are you going to visit stud farms in Hokkaido?

LBM

02-02-2011, 04:45 PM

Yes Tachyon. Ill be at Darley on 14th and Shadai on 15th. I will try to go to as many other studs as possible, but im afraid I wont have many chances as I leave Japan on 15th afternoon.

tachyon

02-03-2011, 05:32 AM

Yes Tachyon. Ill be at Darley on 14th and Shadai on 15th. I will try to go to as many other studs as possible, but im afraid I wont have many chances as I leave Japan on 15th afternoon.

Please say hello to their stallions!! :) (and if you could hear about War Emblem....)
I hope you will enjoy your stay in Hokkaido.

Empire Maker arrived at JBBA Shizunai Stud today.

http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/1b/1a/b2fe4917c102f3074d7dbea14f01c434.jpg
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/umaichi_news/e/a411897b0f5c7c838e5c83c506deb8f7
(pics from umaichi.com)

http://uma-furusato.com/var/cache/texttoimage/imageobject/7/d/9/7d9e54cc93c46bbf38256a65b0f39a17/.png
http://uma-furusato.com/news/detail/_id_57655
(pics from uma-furusato.com)

TBird

02-03-2011, 07:06 AM

Thank you for the pictures Tachyon. :)

dreamer

02-03-2011, 07:51 AM

Doesn't look like he'll be any warmer ...

mariasmon

02-03-2011, 08:53 AM

Looks like he traveled nicely. I'm sure he lost weight, but he doesn't look gaunt.

In the Thoroughbred Times with Miesque's death as the cover story, there is a pic of him with the "flying groom" who took care of him on the way to Japan.

mariasmon

02-03-2011, 12:59 PM

He looks awfully good in these pics, too.

http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/51/58/ff797853c77e3cf7bef804fb672998bc.jpg

http://blogimg.goo.ne.jp/user_image/34/c6/3be0fabc35cef623afb9aaf5f5235248.jpg

I've said it before, but I'm really going to miss seeing him. He is a character.

TBird

02-03-2011, 02:46 PM

What a great looking horse he is. Our loss--Japanese breeders are lucky to have him. I hope he works well with their mares.

mariasmon

02-03-2011, 02:59 PM

What a great looking horse he is. Our loss--Japanese breeders are lucky to have him. I hope he works well with their mares.

If he doesn't, can we have him back?

Della

02-05-2011, 05:55 PM

Is it just me, or do his heels look really low in these pics? He's a lovely looking horse, though.

Starine

02-05-2011, 07:55 PM

He looks terrific in those photos.

MM, how is he a character?

mariasmon

02-05-2011, 08:08 PM

He looks terrific in those photos.

MM, how is he a character?

He's been treated like the crown prince since day 1. So he's just happy with himself. But he's nice about it. When the other stallions are brought out, he'll show off in his stall so you'll pay attention to him instead. He also loves to have his tongue pulled. He'll stick it between the bars of his stall trying to entice you to do it. And it's not a trick so he can bite you.

http://finalturngallery.com/g2/main.php/d/72142-9/Empire_Maker023_2.jpg