Rachel Rachel Rachel All Rachel Rachel The Rachel Time Rachel!...2010!!

[regret15]

I am definitely a Macho Again fan. I felt torn about who to root for in the race, lol. I love Rachel, I love the beautiful gray, WHY oh WHY must they run against each other!? lol. Good thing I have A.D.D. Making choices has never been a forte of mine. That being said, I was happy all around.

-Sparky


And I loved Da' Tara -- he looked beautiful before the race...


Da'Tara has a special place in my heart---not only because he is a wonderful colt, but because he tail males to Man O'War.


The male line is over rated, always has been. :tongue:
You know that Rachel has more Man O War in her veins than Da Tara has. :wink:


THat may be true for speed...its the mares that pass that on...but the males have other things they can pass on...like stamina and confirmation?



Rachel has the following in her pedigree that link her to Man O'War---Hail to Reason (sired Bold Reason also there) Attica, Sword Dancer, Cycle (his dam Vashti by Gallant Fox), Prayer Bell, Raise A Native, Dr. Fager, Miss Glamour Gal, and Native Go Go.

Da'Tara is special to me as I said because he is a wonderful colt, and since he tails to Man O'War, he is keeping the line alive, as is Colonel John. Tiznow tails to Man O'War, and since when I first got "hooked', seeing Kauai King win the Derby and started reading about races, horses, a book by Mr Walter Farley introduced me to that great champion at the tender age of ten, I think. After reading the school library copy, I requested it for Christmas along with King of the Wind. Still have both.

[ManOTaz]

I am definitely a Macho Again fan. I felt torn about who to root for in the race, lol. I love Rachel, I love the beautiful gray, WHY oh WHY must they run against each other!? lol. Good thing I have A.D.D. Making choices has never been a forte of mine. That being said, I was happy all around.

-Sparky


And I loved Da' Tara -- he looked beautiful before the race...


Da'Tara has a special place in my heart---not only because he is a wonderful colt, but because he tail males to Man O'War.


The male line is over rated, always has been. :tongue:
You know that Rachel has more Man O War in her veins than Da Tara has. :wink:


THat may be true for speed...its the mares that pass that on...but the males have other things they can pass on...like stamina and confirmation?


Rachel has the following in her pedigree that link her to Man O'War---Hail to Reason (sired Bold Reason also there) Attica, Sword Dancer, Cycle (his dam Vashti by Gallant Fox), Prayer Bell, Raise A Native, Dr. Fager, Miss Glamour Gal, and Native Go Go.

Da'Tara is special to me as I said because he is a wonderful colt, and since he tails to Man O'War, he is keeping the line alive, as is Colonel John. Tiznow tails to Man O'War, and since when I first got "hooked', seeing Kauai King win the Derby and started reading about races, horses, a book by Mr Walter Farley introduced me to that great champion at the tender age of ten, I think. After reading the school library copy, I requested it for Christmas along with King of the Wind. Still have both.


Wow, thanks.

Its great to see today's horses with the DNA of the best horses of the past still coursing through their veins...at least the best in some of our opinons.... :wink:

[Hermes Redux]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318

[ManOTaz]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


Good read...thanks.

[Grade1]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


I stopped reading the article after the first sentence. It's ridiculous.

[ManOTaz]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


I stopped reading the article after the first sentence. It's ridiculous.


I do not find it ridiculous at all...

I disagree with it on some points....but I did find it a good read...

If Rachel gets near 15 consecutive wins...there is no way Jackson would not want her to go for 16 at least to tie Citation...

But I agree that there will be a nice mix of older fillies and mares and male races like this year...

What do you find so ridiculous about the article?

Anyone can be flippantly dimissive... :wink:

[Grade1]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


I stopped reading the article after the first sentence. It's ridiculous.


I do not find it ridiculous at all...

I disagree with it on some points....but I did find it a good read...

If Rachel gets near 15 consecutive wins...there is no way Jackson would not want her to go for 16 at least to tie Citation...

But I agree that there will be a nice mix of older fillies and mares and male races like this year...

What do you find so ridiculous about the article?

Anyone can be flippantly dimissive... :wink:


I stated that I only read the first sentence. The first sentence is ridiculous.

I have no idea what the rest of the article says because after the hyperbole in the first sentence, I didn't read any further.

On second thought, I'm sure the article is one of the best ever written by any author on any subject.

[ManOTaz]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


I stopped reading the article after the first sentence. It's ridiculous.


I do not find it ridiculous at all...

I disagree with it on some points....but I did find it a good read...

If Rachel gets near 15 consecutive wins...there is no way Jackson would not want her to go for 16 at least to tie Citation...

But I agree that there will be a nice mix of older fillies and mares and male races like this year...

What do you find so ridiculous about the article?

Anyone can be flippantly dimissive... :wink:


I stated that I only read the first sentence. The first sentence is ridiculous.

I have no idea what the rest of the article says because after the hyperbole in the first sentence, I didn't read any further.

On second thought, I'm sure the article is one of the best ever written by any author on any subject.


Well, I agree with you that the first sentence was ridiculous, but after you get past the first paragraph - it is a good article... :wink:

[Majella from Ireland]

Great article but this about Hal Wiggins makes me kinda sad; He had a once-in-century-type filly in his barn one day and nothing but a bunch of forgettable horses the next. He's won six races since Rachel won the Kentucky Oaks for him and three of them have been maiden claimers.


:sad:

[Hermes Redux]

Great article but this about Hal Wiggins makes me kinda sad; He had a once-in-century-type filly in his barn one day and nothing but a bunch of forgettable horses the next. He's won six races since Rachel won the Kentucky Oaks for him and three of them have been maiden claimers.


:sad:


That is Finley writing for effect. As Wiggins had the same deal and type of horses he had before she came along, and now he can retire even sooner than he thought due to the commission he received on her sale to Jackson. And savor going out with his only Gr. 1 win, in the KY Oaks by 20 lengths no less. That memory is priceless.

[second_glance]

Great article but this about Hal Wiggins makes me kinda sad; He had a once-in-century-type filly in his barn one day and nothing but a bunch of forgettable horses the next. He's won six races since Rachel won the Kentucky Oaks for him and three of them have been maiden claimers.


:sad:


But Wiggins did win the Oaks with her (got his Grade 1) -- and Asmussen publicly acknowledged, IIRC, after she won the Preakness that she did it on Hal's training. Plus, he can now retire, earlier than he thought and probably in better style, because of the money he received from her sale.

On balance, I don't think Hal's spending much time feeling sorry for himself these days.

[Pronzini]

And not everyone wants those kinds of horses and that kind of pressure.

[carbonite]

Finley's thoughts on 2010.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=4466318


I stopped reading the article after the first sentence. It's ridiculous.


I do not find it ridiculous at all...

Forget the filly races. Let's see: Stephen Foster, Woodward, JCGC, BCC. Remind me of the last horse to pull off that Superfecta . . . .

Let me introduce you to Bill Finley's chickens; he's working on a count right now:

http://www.osage.net/~themillers92/SCFBlog/eggs2.jpg

[Rick1323]

I don't trust brown eggs........

[ezgoerbaby]

Just keep keepin the brown chi cken (had to edit...what the heck is an ort?) down, Rick...LOL...My chickens only lay brown eggs...they are quite yummy. Smaller than store-bought, but yummy! Very trustworthy.

[ManOTaz]

Great article but this about Hal Wiggins makes me kinda sad; He had a once-in-century-type filly in his barn one day and nothing but a bunch of forgettable horses the next. He's won six races since Rachel won the Kentucky Oaks for him and three of them have been maiden claimers.


:sad:


Yep...

[regret15]

Just keep keepin the brown chi cken (had to edit...what the heck is an ort?) down, Rick...LOL...My chickens only lay brown eggs...they are quite yummy. Smaller than store-bought, but yummy! Very trustworthy.


not to hijack the thread--but FYI--the colour of the egg depends on the breed of chicken. You want REALLY tasty eggs, feed your chickens corn and sweet feed--you will get tasty eggs, nice deep yelllow yolks, and fat happy chickens.

[Rick1323]

Just keep keepin the brown chi cken (had to edit...what the heck is an ort?) down, Rick...LOL...My chickens only lay brown eggs...they are quite yummy. Smaller than store-bought, but yummy! Very trustworthy.


not to hijack the thread--but FYI--the colour of the egg depends on the breed of ort. You want REALLY tasty eggs, feed your chickens corn and sweet feed--you will get tasty eggs, nice deep yelllow yolks, and fat happy chickens.


That almost sounds like it came from the porn spammer.....

[ezgoerbaby]

ours are rhode island reds i believe. Good tip on the sweet feed thanks!

[ManOTaz]

Great article but this about Hal Wiggins makes me kinda sad; He had a once-in-century-type filly in his barn one day and nothing but a bunch of forgettable horses the next. He's won six races since Rachel won the Kentucky Oaks for him and three of them have been maiden claimers.


:sad:


But Wiggins did win the Oaks with her (got his Grade 1) -- and Asmussen publicly acknowledged, IIRC, after she won the Preakness that she did it on Hal's training. Plus, he can now retire, earlier than he thought and probably in better style, because of the money he received from her sale.

On balance, I don't think Hal's spending much time feeling sorry for himself these days.


No...to be fortunate enough to not only have trained the filly, but also reaped the benefits to be secure for life...

He owes Rachel a great deal... :wink:

[seahawkgal]

Hey, where is that link that shows all of Rachel's races?
I can't find what thread it's posted in. :laugh:

[ManOTaz]

Hey, where is that link that shows all of Rachel's races?
I can't find what thread it's posted in. :laugh:


Hear are past performances and video...

http://horseracingnation.com/horse/Rachel_Alexandra

[seahawkgal]

Thanks!

[ManOTaz]

Thanks!


I'm certain you will return the favor if you have not already... :grin:

[Railbird]

Found a nice interview with Asmussen that someone got when he was up at Woodbine recently. Asmussen is a very nice guy but that doesn't erase, in my mind, the fact that he's cheated in the past. I can't be overly fond of someone like that, and he's the sort of trainer I always watch with some skepticism. But I will say this: Every person in the world has some sort of redeeming factor, and I find it very endearing how much he loves Rachel. These aren't just words on a page because they sound good. He gets this funny little smile in his eyes when he talks about her; after the Woodward, he was running down from his box seat with tears running down his face. From what I've experienced, it's so rare for a trainer with so many horses at so many tracks to have a depth of feeling like this for a single horse.

http://tripledeadheat.blogspot.com/2009/09/interview-chance-encounter-with-steve.html


TDH. Has it sunk in yet how great Rachel Alexandra is?
SA: It's funny, I was standing up at the rail this morning and I texted my wife, "Rachel won", just because I was thinking about it so fondly. It's just such a great moment to relive. She's so special and I'm so proud of her.

TDH: Her spot in history is cemented. In a perfect world, what more would you like to see her do?
SA: To this point it has worked perfectly. It's so hard to put into words just how it feels, but I just think of what other people say leaving the races. We went back to the barn and Julie (Asmussen's wife) and the boys were in the car and they said it was like the movie Dreamer only it really happened. The build up, the coverage of it, it felt so surreal that it really happened.

TDH. I wrote in my blog that after Rachel won the race it was like a spaceship landed. People were wandering about the track asking, "Did you SEE that?"
SA: That's one of the things that's exciting to me. I've never seen that many people happy leaving the races. It was a great moment. I read about the race afterwards and someone said, "She had ten reasons to lose and she didn't use any of them." I've been very fortunate to be involved in racing and I've never been anywhere that many people were on one horses side.

TDH Is there a favourite moment?
SA: You can think of so many different little things. When we walked back (to the stable) after she won and she walked down the track the opposite way. The crowd smushed up against the fence and it looked like a wave. It was 20 or 30 deep. It was amazing.

TDH: How do you top that?
SA: I don't. That's very special and I don't want to top it. I want to have other ones. That one stays in its own little spot.

[Slewbopper]

not to hijack the thread--but FYI--the colour of the egg depends on the breed of ort. You want REALLY tasty eggs, feed your chickens corn and sweet feed--you will get tasty eggs, nice deep yelllow yolks, and fat happy chickens.


How do you know when a chicken is happy?

[regret15]

not to hijack the thread--but FYI--the colour of the egg depends on the breed of ort. You want REALLY tasty eggs, feed your chickens corn and sweet feed--you will get tasty eggs, nice deep yelllow yolks, and fat happy chickens.


How do you know when a ort is happy?


(wonder why when we type chicken it shows ort?) any way, to tell if a chicken is happy, just listen to the clucking lol

[ManOTaz]

Found a nice interview with Asmussen that someone got when he was up at Woodbine recently. Asmussen is a very nice guy but that doesn't erase, in my mind, the fact that he's cheated in the past. I can't be overly fond of someone like that, and he's the sort of trainer I always watch with some skepticism. But I will say this: Every person in the world has some sort of redeeming factor, and I find it very endearing how much he loves Rachel. These aren't just words on a page because they sound good. He gets this funny little smile in his eyes when he talks about her; after the Woodward, he was running down from his box seat with tears running down his face. From what I've experienced, it's so rare for a trainer with so many horses at so many tracks to have a depth of feeling like this for a single horse.

http://tripledeadheat.blogspot.com/2009/09/interview-chance-encounter-with-steve.html


TDH. Has it sunk in yet how great Rachel Alexandra is?
SA: It's funny, I was standing up at the rail this morning and I texted my wife, "Rachel won", just because I was thinking about it so fondly. It's just such a great moment to relive. She's so special and I'm so proud of her.

TDH: Her spot in history is cemented. In a perfect world, what more would you like to see her do?
SA: To this point it has worked perfectly. It's so hard to put into words just how it feels, but I just think of what other people say leaving the races. We went back to the barn and Julie (Asmussen's wife) and the boys were in the car and they said it was like the movie Dreamer only it really happened. The build up, the coverage of it, it felt so surreal that it really happened.

TDH. I wrote in my blog that after Rachel won the race it was like a spaceship landed. People were wandering about the track asking, "Did you SEE that?"
SA: That's one of the things that's exciting to me. I've never seen that many people happy leaving the races. It was a great moment. I read about the race afterwards and someone said, "She had ten reasons to lose and she didn't use any of them." I've been very fortunate to be involved in racing and I've never been anywhere that many people were on one horses side.

TDH Is there a favourite moment?
SA: You can think of so many different little things. When we walked back (to the stable) after she won and she walked down the track the opposite way. The crowd smushed up against the fence and it looked like a wave. It was 20 or 30 deep. It was amazing.

TDH: How do you top that?
SA: I don't. That's very special and I don't want to top it. I want to have other ones. That one stays in its own little spot.



Thanks RB...

I understand what you are saying about Steve...

I think that he is a nice guy too...I think I have shared some of my experiences all ready regarding him...on this site...

I think he is also a little shy as well, but with Curlin and now Rachel he has been forced to come out of his shell a little bit more and he is more affable...and he loves his horses...and you cannot find fault in that IMHO...otherwise we're all guilty right :wink:

[moonwalker]

(wonder why when we type ort it shows ort?) any way, to tell if a ort is happy, just listen to the clucking lol


What is an ort? :huh:

Mary MMM

[regret15]

(wonder why when we type ort it shows ort?) any way, to tell if a ort is happy, just listen to the clucking lol


What is an ort? :huh:

Mary MMM


for reasons known only to the internet gods, it seems that everytime we type the name of that domesticated bird that lays eggs, when we hit post, it shows ort instead of the word we typed---c h i c k e n ---i hope that comes through.

[moonwalker]

How strange. When did those domesticated fowl become dirty words?
LOL.

I noticed that the word "c r a z y" gets spelled something else too -- so I guess the ultimate insult is to call someone a "crazy chicken." :laugh:

Mary MMM

[CoronadosQuest]

^ You wrote crazy chicken and nothing happened...

[regret15]

^think I will try again--here goes--everyone ready?

chicken

[moonwalker]

^ You wrote crazy chicken and nothing happened...


Guess they changed it.

Crazy chicken crazy chicken crazy chicken!

Mary MMM

[Rick1323]

If you ever had a crazy chicken in your family you would never use that vile phrase. Some people only get scrambled eggs ya know. You think it is fun eating all those omlettes? I'm extremly insulted!

[regret15]

If you ever had a crazy chicken in your family you would never use that vile phrase. Some people only get scrambled eggs ya know. You think it is fun eating all those omlettes? I'm extremly insulted!



If you are ever in my neck of the woods, I will make sure you get fried eggs, homemade biskits (southern spellin') hickory smoked bacon, ham and sausage, white gravy, fresh butter, muscidine jelly, black berry jam and hot coffee---promise

[WesternDreamer]

So back to Rachel...has anyone seen her since Woodward day?? I know she's done for the year but I already get nervous when I haven't seen a new update/pictures of her in a week or two! :grin:

[second_glance]

So back to Rachel...has anyone seen her since Woodward day?? I know she's done for the year but I already get nervous when I haven't seen a new update/pictures of her in a week or two! :grin:


I'm half-expecting some stealth operation, whereby they sneak her out of Saratoga in the dark of night and whisk her off to some undisclosed location for her vacation. :wink:

[ManOTaz]

So back to Rachel...has anyone seen her since Woodward day?? I know she's done for the year but I already get nervous when I haven't seen a new update/pictures of her in a week or two! :grin:


My understanding is that after the race she was going to stay in Saratoga for the foreseeable future.

Have not seen her...but someone in Saratoga Springs with access could find out... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

Asmussen said Rachel Alexandra would likely go back to the track on Wednesday, primarily because "she's a very physical animal. She's going to want to do something."

Rachel Alexandra will remain in Saratoga most likely until the end of September when Asmussen moves the bulk of his stable to Kentucky.

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=4451577
September 6, 2009

[Railbird]

She's here hanging out :smiley: She's doing a little galloping/jogging in the mornings and hanging out in a round pen in the afternoons, getting dirty and being a horse.

[WesternDreamer]

Good to hear!! Would love to see some pics of her good and dirty if anyone gets a chance. I hope he brings her to Keeneland, I'd gladly be up before the crack of dawn to get a glimpse of her.

[Railbird]

I will try to grab a few pictures of her before she leaves. Now that the meet is over I haven't been going back there with my camera and recorder much....pretty much just stopping by to say hi to Amy and the gang and take a peek at Rachel. It's sort of funny, but I keep wanting to stop by just to see her and make sure she's real, you know?

Most of the gang has moved on...Kensei is still here, too, though. Not sure what they're up to with him just yet. He has really grown on me. A very bright, professional horse.

[regret15]

She's here hanging out :smiley: She's doing a little galloping/jogging in the mornings and hanging out in a round pen in the afternoons, getting dirty and being a horse.



If you can "sneak" some photos of her that would be GREAT!
I am GREEEEN with envy----but I promise not to hate you because you are there and I am here. :wink:

[WesternDreamer]

I will try to grab a few pictures of her before she leaves. Now that the meet is over I haven't been going back there with my camera and recorder much....pretty much just stopping by to say hi to Amy and the gang and take a peek at Rachel. It's sort of funny, but I keep wanting to stop by just to see her and make sure she's real, you know?


Totally understand! That's one reason I want her to come here, just so I can see her with my own eyes...as if the millions of pictures, videos, and race replays aren't enough! I promise if she comes here I'll get pictures of her to put up as well. That's one nice thing about having all of us here from different areas; someone's sure to be where she's at and post updates...now if they go with the "undisclosed location" route and send her to somewhere in western Nebraska, we'd be in trouble! :wink:

[Rick1323]

Forget Rachel. My new favorite female is Regret! That breakfast sounds Delish!

[regret15]

Forget Rachel. My new favorite female is Regret! That breakfast sounds Delish!


LOL

Thank you! It's just your standard southern breakfast

[Rick1323]

Regret, please don't tell me you have one of those cast iron frying pans or I am getting airline tickets! Those things are magical!

[regret15]

Regret, please don't tell me you have one of those cast iron frying pans or I am getting airline tickets! Those things are magical!


I not only have one---I have three, and a stew pot, no self respecting southern girl sets up housekeeping without cast iron skillets.
And yes I have one of those "cornbread" pans that you bake cornbread in to make invidivual "corn shape" cornbread.

[Rick1323]

First thing tomorrow I am finding a good divorce lawyer. Everything we own is non stick! Since I don't travel to Dallas anymore I really miss southern cooking.

[regret15]

[quote author=Rick1323 link=topic=34061.msg808880#msg808880 date=1253479169]
First thing tomorrow I am finding a good divorce lawyer. Everything we own is non stick! Since I don't travel to Dallas anymore I really miss southern cooking.
[/quote

ROFLMAO

Not one piece of non stick in my kitchen ---- horrors! only cast iron and copperbottom stainless steel

[Rick1323]

I will call you as soon as the divorce is finalized!

[moonwalker]

If you ever had a crazy chicken in your family you would never use that vile phrase. Some people only get scrambled eggs ya know. You think it is fun eating all those omlettes? I'm extremly insulted!



If you are ever in my neck of the woods, I will make sure you get fried eggs, homemade biskits (southern spellin') hickory smoked bacon, ham and sausage, white gravy, fresh butter, muscidine jelly, black berry jam and hot coffee---promise


Can I come, too? Yum!

Mary MMM

[regret15]

I will call you as soon as the divorce is finalized!







ROFLMAO
No need to divorce--bring the wife and kids--if you have kids--you are forum family which here in the south is translated CUZIN.

[regret15]

If you ever had a crazy chicken in your family you would never use that vile phrase. Some people only get scrambled eggs ya know. You think it is fun eating all those omlettes? I'm extremly insulted!



If you are ever in my neck of the woods, I will make sure you get fried eggs, homemade biskits (southern spellin') hickory smoked bacon, ham and sausage, white gravy, fresh butter, muscidine jelly, black berry jam and hot coffee---promise


Can I come, too? Yum!

Mary MMM






Of course, you are a cuzin too! we believe in large extened families and BIG meals!

[ManOTaz]

I will try to grab a few pictures of her before she leaves. Now that the meet is over I haven't been going back there with my camera and recorder much....pretty much just stopping by to say hi to Amy and the gang and take a peek at Rachel. It's sort of funny, but I keep wanting to stop by just to see her and make sure she's real, you know?

Most of the gang has moved on...Kensei is still here, too, though. Not sure what they're up to with him just yet. He has really grown on me. A very bright, professional horse.


I am hoping that point him toward the Vosburgh...

Kensei is a beaut too...

[Hermes Redux]

Rachel doesn't like it when her thread goes to the second page :evil:

[regret15]

We have to keep Rachel's thread on the first page!!

[ManOTaz]

Does she send out a text blast to her fans when she notices that its not getting the TLC it needs... :laugh:

[Hermes Redux]

Does she send out a text blast to her fans when she notices that its not getting the TLC it needs... :laugh:


She has someone to do that for her:)

[the Bid]

Rachel has been spending morings at Oklahoma turned out in a round pen and watching large flocks of birds. Horses being walked nearby all see to think she's something special, thay all look at her as they walk by under the pony shed. (All but for one cute chestnut colt who didn't seem too impressed...) She's only been to the track 2 times since the Woodward.

[ManOTaz]

Does she send out a text blast to her fans when she notices that its not getting the TLC it needs... :laugh:


She has someone to do that for her:)


Of course, what am I thinking about....all the appointments and engagements she must have...she has to need a staff of hundreds to answer her fan mail, coordinate photo shoots...help with interview and other media requests...

Its all part of being a star... :grin:

Our own Broadway Rachel... :laugh:

[ManOTaz]

Thanks for the update... :azn:

That seems to be contrary to the image that Asmussen painted when he said that she would have to get back to the track the Wednesday after the Woodward because she was such a physical horse...

Guess rest is agreeing with her... :grin:

[Hermes Redux]

Rachel has been spending morings at Oklahoma turned out in a round pen and watching large flocks of birds. Horses being walked nearby all see to think she's something special, thay all look at her as they walk by under the pony shed. (All but for one cute chestnut colt who didn't seem too impressed...) She's only been to the track 2 times since the Woodward.


Really? Not even jogging or galloping? Are they walking her to maintain some condition? She needs her own Twitter page.

[ManOTaz]

Rachel has been spending morings at Oklahoma turned out in a round pen and watching large flocks of birds. Horses being walked nearby all see to think she's something special, thay all look at her as they walk by under the pony shed. (All but for one cute chestnut colt who didn't seem too impressed...) She's only been to the track 2 times since the Woodward.


Really? Not even jogging or galloping? Are they walking her to maintain some condition? She needs her own Twitter page.


Seems like she has it... :laugh:

http://twitter.com/R_ALexandra

[Hermes Redux]

She is doing well and ships to KY next week.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52746/rachel-doing-great-ships-to-ky-tuesday

Hey SOS, do you mind taking the Woodward off the thread title? Please. Maybe we could replace with the word, Updates!

[carbonite]

Or maybe a question: Whatever happened to? Where is she now? Do you remember?

[ManOTaz]

Or maybe a question: Whatever happened to? Where is she now? Do you remember?


Oh, we remember....never a need to question that.... :wink:

Its the most talked about issue in horse racing still...what will her schedule look like next year... :laugh:

[Hermes Redux]

Yeah, it's not Rachel Who, it's Breeders' What?

[ManOTaz]

Yeah, it's not Rachel Who, it's Breeders' What?


Exactly...

http://msnsmileys.net/r/smileys/ROFL/Rofl_18b.gif

[Della]

I will try to grab a few pictures of her before she leaves. Now that the meet is over I haven't been going back there with my camera and recorder much....pretty much just stopping by to say hi to Amy and the gang and take a peek at Rachel. It's sort of funny, but I keep wanting to stop by just to see her and make sure she's real, you know?

Most of the gang has moved on...Kensei is still here, too, though. Not sure what they're up to with him just yet. He has really grown on me. A very bright, professional horse.


Are Amy and Abe still watching over Rachel 24/7? If yes, tell them "Hi" from Della, the English lady!

[regret15]

Gotta keep up with our girl!
I wear my pink Rachel bracelet and anyone who asks, as soon as they see the name, they recognize her.

[Hermes Redux]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=847616

[ManOTaz]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=847616



double posting... :wink:

[Hermes Redux]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=847616



double posting... :wink:


Deliberate:) Thanks for that link...

[PONYRCR]

I don't want to wade through 90 pages of thread so....Has it been mentioned when/where she will return next year?? I'd like to travel to see her in her 2010 debut and I'm thinking it might be the Apple Blossum but that would conflict with other travel plans I already have.

[ManOTaz]

I don't want to wade through 90 pages of thread so....Has it been mentioned when/where she will return next year?? I'd like to travel to see her in her 2010 debut and I'm thinking it might be the Apple Blossum but that would conflict with other travel plans I already have.


No mention has been made about what is next for her...some think its will be the Donn, some the Apple Blossom, some maybe a race Derby Day...but its all speculation... :grin:

You know Jess Jackson...he'll let us know just before the post draw... :laugh:

[ManOTaz]

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=847616



double posting... :wink:


Deliberate:) Thanks for that link...


If only our gal knew all the trouble we go through for her... :cheesy:

[flytothestars]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?

[Rick1323]

She is like Santa at the North Pole. Just address it "Rachel". Nothing else is necessary. It will get to her.

[Hermes Redux]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?


She doesn't accept visitors and has security guards to deal with interlopers.

Seriously, I doubt they make exceptions unless you know someone - and even then - or they'd be making exceptions all the time. The edict is from Jackson, not just an Asmussen preference.

[flytothestars]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?


She doesn't accept visitors and has security guards to deal with interlopers.

Seriously, I doubt they make exceptions unless you know someone - and even then - or they'd be making exceptions all the time. The edict is from Jackson, not just an Asmussen preference.


according to BH, it was mentioned that she received visitors.

[Hermes Redux]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?


She doesn't accept visitors and has security guards to deal with interlopers.

Seriously, I doubt they make exceptions unless you know someone - and even then - or they'd be making exceptions all the time. The edict is from Jackson, not just an Asmussen preference.


according to BH, it was mentioned that she received visitors.


Yes at Saratoga she is in end stall of an old shedrow barn and you can see her head if she is not hidden behind a very large hanging fern. You are allowed to "visit" from 50 paces.

You can take picts. You obviously can see her in her round pen. You can follow her to the track in the dark. You can watch her go out in the afternoon around 3P to hand walk and graze.

At CD, security to even access the stable area is tighter, and the barns allow for screens in the front of the "shed row" if the trainer would like to put one up to hide his entire shedrow.

[zilzal]

When there is a void in top quality horses, SOME one has to fill it. Top yby default is not great by any means. Greatness takes time and repetition not a fly by night 7 to 8 month string of races or Camarero of Puerto Rico would be called great with 56 wins in a row.

Greatness stands the test of time and comparison to all the horses of history not the uneven crowd of a poor season. Eclipse, Flying Childers, Native Dancer, Nearco, Ribot, Forego, Kelsom Fager, Ormonde, Colin, Personal Ensign, Tremont, Asteroid, Barcaldine, Crucifix, Brahram, St. Simon.....uniqu and distinct true champions akin to Red Rum, Flatterer, Zaccio, Arkel etc.

[Hermes Redux]

I don't want to wade through 90 pages of thread so....Has it been mentioned when/where she will return next year?? I'd like to travel to see her in her 2010 debut and I'm thinking it might be the Apple Blossum but that would conflict with other travel plans I already have.


Not yet but Jess might announce her plans this week or next...

[Surfside]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?


She doesn't accept visitors and has security guards to deal with interlopers.

Seriously, I doubt they make exceptions unless you know someone - and even then - or they'd be making exceptions all the time. The edict is from Jackson, not just an Asmussen preference.


according to BH, it was mentioned that she received visitors.


Actually, she receives subjects. :laugh:

[GinTalking]

She is like Santa at the North Pole. Just address it "Rachel". Nothing else is necessary. It will get to her.


ROFL :cool:

[flytothestars]

so is there any email for steve then? i recall a website but i couldnt find it for some reason

[Hermes Redux]

so is there any email for steve then? i recall a website but i couldnt find it for some reason


Because he doesn't want anyone to?

Good luck with that. You never know if someone in charge will think your request to see Rachel is as special as you think it is. Seriously, you might hit it on just the right day. But it is my distinct impression that Jess's private security team does not allow exceptions. That said, I bet Blasi gets laid a lot these days...

[zilzal]

Historically there are many fillies much more impressive than this flash in the pan.

It takes understanding the pecking order of history.

[Hermes Redux]

Historically there are many fillies much more impressive than this flash in the pan.

It takes understanding the pecking order of history.


Peck this, Zilzal.

[Ballerina]

Historically there are many fillies much more impressive than this flash in the pan.

It takes understanding the pecking order of history.


"Flash in the pan"? What are you smoking?

[zilzal]

ONE season greatness does not make......Pure and simple

Try the quality: take a Miesque who not only BEAT but destroyed the best fields in the world, not once but twice. GREATNESS requires a yardstick of true scale, not a one season newspaper hyped vacuum expanding good one.

Personal Ensign, racing with surgical screws in her hind leg goes UNDEFEATED for two seasons several against the boys.
Pretty Polly (24 22-2-0) and many other over the rich history of the game
or
MAKYBE DIVA, three time winner of the Melboune Cup.

When you limit your horizons and don't conteplate what ture greatness in the breed actually is, any one will make you quake and quiver.

[Hermes Redux]

Bal, I'd say zilzal is cooking Euro crack in the pan...

[Ballerina]

Bal, I'd say zilzal is cooking Euro crack in the pan...


Yeah, probably. But I do get a kick our of the half-assed lectures he/she assumes to give everyone. Not worth arguing with a person like that.

[zilzal]

Johnny Come Lately's who wouldn't know Boston from Domino or a martingale from strangles abound.

learn some history

[Hermes Redux]

Johnny Come Lately's who wouldn't know Boston from Domino or a martingale from strangles abound.

learn some history

Okey dokey. I'm off to get me SOME of that history stuff...or, wait. I could ENJOY and APPRECIATE the horse in front of us now who has created her own history!

[Surfside]

Historically there are many fillies much more impressive than this flash in the pan.

It takes understanding the pecking order of history.


History is great. But in this day and age, to paraphrase Omar Khayyam, "The moving pecker writes, and having writ moves on."

[zilzal]

There were may QUIET times in the history of the thoroughbred when not much of note was around, THEN, there were the seventies when true GREATNESS overflowed: Secretariat, Affirmed, Slew, John Henry, Nijinsky, Forego, Exceller, Mill Reef, Brigadier Gerard, Ruffian, Alleged, Bid, Roberto, and Allez France made the word almost common place.

When there is a drought of talent, the top is filled, relatively, by the best that is around and some newspaper writers (the one who writes about baseball Tuesday, Hockey on Thursday and tennis Friday) get a hold of the very limited understanding of the game, and showers the best of that very limited time period with accolades which are not deserved but are received nonetheless. The bigger problem, is that the real thoroughbred press, the ones with the historical perspective, don't speak up to put the flavor of the month in their place but rather, ride the tide of popularity,

That is the what the talent drought of today promotes: the sows ear does become the silk purse because there is no quality silk available.

[Hermes Redux]

Anyone with any real perspective on history recognizes that we are blessed with living in another era of great horses. Rachel, Zenyatta, and Sea The Stars. Maybe others, too.

[Second of June]

Personal Ensign, racing with surgical screws in her hind leg goes UNDEFEATED for two seasons several against the boys.


i adore Personal Ensign, and i'm not taking a thing away from her accomplishments, but she defeated the boys in ONE race, the Whitney. and only two showed up: Gulch and King's Swan. Rachel has run against boys on three separate occasions, and defeated over a dozen of them. it's not the same thing.

[Surfside]

Personal Ensign, racing with surgical screws in her hind leg goes UNDEFEATED for two seasons several against the boys.


i adore Personal Ensign, and i'm not taking a thing away from her accomplishments, but she defeated the boys in ONE race, the Whitney. and only two showed up: Gulch and King's Swan. Rachel has run against boys on three separate occasions, and defeated over a dozen of them. it's not the same thing.


It's called "perspective." Anyone who thinks Rachel is a flash in the pan is deceiving herself. Or himself.

[regret15]

The history of racing glitters with GREAT STARS---from the time the first Kentucky Derby was run, there have been horses that capture the hearts of the public, not only with their talent, but with something else that is harder to put into words, heart, personality, magic, if you will. These horses never fade from the memory---for those who are fortunate to see them race, the memory of them grows brighter with each passing year and they share that with the generations who were not there. For those who did not see them in action, they still capture the hearts and minds of those people and that plants a love for the horse and the sport. The names are immortal, Aristides, Man O'War, All eleven Triple Crown Winners, (I saw Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed race--had to be on television, but I was there glued to the screen), Tanya, Regret, John Henry, Monarchos, Genuine Risk, Winning Colors-----I could go on for days, but here is my point----Rachel Alexandra in this short season has proven that her name will join this elite group. She has proven she has the stuff--she has mopped the track with her challengers, colt, filly or older male. She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse, just as these I have mentioned transcended it. Rachel is one for the ages, and in years to come, those of us who saw her race, up close or via television, will savour the memory, and the generations to come will sigh with envy that they were born so late.

Just my humble opion.

[Surfside]

The history of racing glitters with GREAT STARS---from the time the first Kentucky Derby was run, there have been horses that capture the hearts of the public, not only with their talent, but with something else that is harder to put into words, heart, personality, magic, if you will. These horses never fade from the memory---for those who are fortunate to see them race, the memory of them grows brighter with each passing year and they share that with the generations who were not there. For those who did not see them in action, they still capture the hearts and minds of those people and that plants a love for the horse and the sport. The names are immortal, Aristides, Man O'War, All eleven Triple Crown Winners, (I saw Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed race--had to be on television, but I was there glued to the screen), Tanya, Regret, John Henry, Monarchos, Genuine Risk, Winning Colors-----I could go on for days, but here is my point----Rachel Alexandra in this short season has proven that her name will join this elite group. She has proven she has the stuff--she has mopped the track with her challengers, colt, filly or older male. She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse, just as these I have mentioned transcended it. Rachel is one for the ages, and in years to come, those of us who saw her race, up close or via television, will savour the memory, and the generations to come will sigh with envy that they were born so late.

Just my humble opion.


a pretty good opinion, if you ask me.

[Rick1323]

Pooh on anyone who doubts Rachel. As for me, I wrote her a fan letter and sent her some mints.

I not only got a reply, but they sent me a lock of her hair which I am holding in my hand right now!!!! <squeal>

Hey, does Rachel have black hair with really tight little curls?

[carbonite]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.

[Surfside]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


That is a humble opinion.

[Surfside]

Hey, does Rachel have black hair with really tight little curls?


No, that would be Hugh Jackman. :grin:

[ManOTaz]

since she is going to churchill in the coming days, is it possible to visit her at churchill? if so, is there an email for me to contact Steve or the assistant trainer?


I do not believe that a Churchill visit is possible unless their tour takes you by her barn...

Access is much tougher there...

[ManOTaz]

so is there any email for steve then? i recall a website but i couldnt find it for some reason


Because he doesn't want anyone to?

Good luck with that. You never know if someone in charge will think your request to see Rachel is as special as you think it is. Seriously, you might hit it on just the right day. But it is my distinct impression that Jess's private security team does not allow exceptions. That said, I bet Blasi gets laid a lot these days...


I think you hit the nail on the head...

You might get lucky...but I doubt it...which should not deter them...only prepare them for the likely outcome... :wink:

Remember the 50 foot keep away zone at Saratoga... :laugh:

[ManOTaz]

ONE season greatness does not make......Pure and simple

Try the quality: take a Miesque who not only BEAT but destroyed the best fields in the world, not once but twice. GREATNESS requires a yardstick of true scale, not a one season newspaper hyped vacuum expanding good one.

Personal Ensign, racing with surgical screws in her hind leg goes UNDEFEATED for two seasons several against the boys.
Pretty Polly (24 22-2-0) and many other over the rich history of the game
or
MAKYBE DIVA, three time winner of the Melboune Cup.

When you limit your horizons and don't conteplate what ture greatness in the breed actually is, any one will make you quake and quiver.


http://msnsmileys.net/r/smileys/ROFL/Rofl_3e.gif

We have had a discussion of this -- and I did not see you weighing in at all...but your thoughts are welcome...

Now...I think you are way off the mark...

You suggest that Rachel is a "flash in the pan" but then you compare her to Personal Ensign and other noted great horses...as if there is no in between...

Some on this site have suggested that she is a "great " horse for her accomplishments this year...

I have preferred to suggest that she has had one of the greatest three year old seasons of a filly ever...

A season which is comparable to Ruffian, though Rachel only set a record in one race...and Ruffian's career sadly ended in July of her three year old season...

I have withheld bestowing the "greatness" title on her --- though I have also compared her favorably to Beldame and other horses...

As far as Personal Ensign...and Rachel...I would clarify for you that she faced the males once...in the Whitney...where three or four of them took her on because -- like Rachel --- she scared other competitors away...

Personal Ensign also like Rachel defeated the Kentucky Derby winner -- though that winner was a female -- Winning Colors...and Rachel also defeated the Belmont Stakes winner.

So, I would suggest with her three year old season alone -- she compares very favorably to Personal Ensign...granted she does not have her 13 races in a row record...but she accumulated that record over three racing seasons and Rachel has only had two so far...though Rachel has won nine stakes races in a row dating back to her two year old season...which is pretty impressive...

So, I would suggest to you that Rachel has demonstrated that she is no "flash in the pan" -- a flash in the pan is a short lived winner...and she has raced from November through September...with a two month break...winning nine stakes races in a row...

Three against males...the first female to do that in decades... http://www.boards2go.com/smiley/rolleyes.gif

[Railbird]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.

[ManOTaz]

Personal Ensign, racing with surgical screws in her hind leg goes UNDEFEATED for two seasons several against the boys.


i adore Personal Ensign, and i'm not taking a thing away from her accomplishments, but she defeated the boys in ONE race, the Whitney. and only two showed up: Gulch and King's Swan. Rachel has run against boys on three separate occasions, and defeated over a dozen of them. it's not the same thing.


I do too.

I love Personal Ensign -- and she proved herself a "great" filly -- no doubt about it...but to call her a flash in the pan is to not deal with reality...IMHO....

She has defeated two American Classic winners...the winners of at least eight Grade I races...

[ManOTaz]

The history of racing glitters with GREAT STARS---from the time the first Kentucky Derby was run, there have been horses that capture the hearts of the public, not only with their talent, but with something else that is harder to put into words, heart, personality, magic, if you will. These horses never fade from the memory---for those who are fortunate to see them race, the memory of them grows brighter with each passing year and they share that with the generations who were not there. For those who did not see them in action, they still capture the hearts and minds of those people and that plants a love for the horse and the sport. The names are immortal, Aristides, Man O'War, All eleven Triple Crown Winners, (I saw Secretariat, Seattle Slew and Affirmed race--had to be on television, but I was there glued to the screen), Tanya, Regret, John Henry, Monarchos, Genuine Risk, Winning Colors-----I could go on for days, but here is my point----Rachel Alexandra in this short season has proven that her name will join this elite group. She has proven she has the stuff--she has mopped the track with her challengers, colt, filly or older male. She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse, just as these I have mentioned transcended it. Rachel is one for the ages, and in years to come, those of us who saw her race, up close or via television, will savour the memory, and the generations to come will sigh with envy that they were born so late.

Just my humble opion.


a pretty good opinion, if you ask me.


Indeed. Well said.

[zilzal]

Search the OVERALL hsitory of the sprot not just the last few decades as the MANY Johnny Come lately's are prone to do knowing nothing of greats like Pan Zareta (151 76-31-21), Reel, Miss Wooford, La Prevoyante, Lady Lightfoot, Imp (171 62-35-29), Haynie's Maria, Fashion (36 32-0-0), Busher, Cicada, even Bayakoa is light years ahead of this flash in the pan....

Quality over a period of time versus all comers and did not shy away from anyone. CONSISTENCY over time is quality and greatness.

Brilliance is not greatness or we would be talking about an Easy Goer as great or Talkin Man as great and they were NOT.

[ManOTaz]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens.

Can you read? The author you quoted stated that for him/her Rachel has captured the heart of the public...not that she/he has never known a horse to capture the heart of the public... http://www.boards2go.com/smiley/rolleyes.gif

A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care.

Is it only possible for one horse to capture the heart of the American public each year?

I can think of at least three this year...two you have reference...Rachel and Mine That Bird --- I would add Zenyatta...

The fact that you -- in YOUR world have not seen her capture the heart of the public does not mean that it has not happened...

I have seen and spoken to a number of people at the track who were there only because of Rachel.

I have had people at work who know I go to races and was going to see Rachel -- wish her luck...but who are not into racing at all...

Bah humbug...

Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


Yeah, some humble opinion... http://msnsmileys.net/r/smileys/ROFL/Rofl_3b.gif

[regret15]

Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.

[/quote]

My point.

[ManOTaz]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.



Well said.

How many trainers cry at races?

These are not marshmallows...

That was an amazing race and you are right -- many of the people there were not traditional race goers...

Many of the people cheering for Mine That Bird were not traditional race goers...and many of the people cheering for Zenyatta have not been traditional race goers IMHO...

I think this is a special year because at least three horses have captured the hearts of the public that I can see when often it is one...or none...

To try and diminish this reality is just plain silly in my humble opinion... (maybe mine is not that humble either :wink:)

[ManOTaz]

Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.



My point.
[/quote]

Not just YOUR point... THE POINT... :wink:

[Hermes Redux]

The Flash in the Pan ignited a blaze of glory and passionate fan base.

Also seemed to bring the negative types who cant talk about anything but Rachel to the fore as well...but so be it:)

[zilzal]

Would ANYONE outside of racing know this one if the papers had not gone gah gah over it?

Doubtful.

While it is a good shot in the arm for the sport, the emotional malarkey has no correlation with the reality of what greatness in a thoroughbred is all about.

Unlike the general media, thoroughbred literature is anchored in a history much like baseball that revers their real champions and makes little room for those highest accolades until a new one has earned the right to occupy the same stage as the best of all time. Superlatives today are a dime a dozen, shallow and irrespective of the real definition of the terms.

I love Whittingham's description of Cougar II; "He was a useful horse."

Flashes in the pan are what they are: brilliance without context.

[Ballerina]

It's easy for people to pooh pooh Rachel's accomplishments. Probably because they didn't pick up on her rare abilities early on. It's senseless to argue with anyone who has a negative opinion about her. I venture to say that even if she raced in the BCC on plastic and defeated the Big Z girl and all the other entrants, her detractors would still feel the same about her - negative. They'd pull up the fact that they don't like Jess Jackson or that Asmussen in a cheat or some other cockamammy reason.

One had to be at Saratoga for The Woodward. It's just plain indescribable. You had to be there. Every trainer I spoke to had nothing but deep respect and awe of Rachel and said "She's going to be hard to beat." I said it before. I'll say it again. I've been going to Saratoga races since 1958 - not every year, but a lotta, lotta different years. Never, ever in any of my experience did I witness anything like Rachel's Woodward. Not even Secretariat's Whitney attempt - which he lost.

The Travers which is classified as Saratoga's biggest race and biggest week at The Spa couldn't hold a candle to Rachel's Woodward.

It's all about savoring the moment, living in the here and now, embracing it and holding it in our hearts as a gift from the sport we all say we love so much. It's not a popular sport, but it's our sport and who cares if other people don't know what we know. Their loss!

[zilzal]

The Travers was at a distance this one will never attempt as it is very obvious from the 14 or so hard cracks that Borel laid across her butt, not once but twice down two lanes, over two tracks, along the non-response from the same punishment, and with his description that she was staggering at the end of 9 furlongs, that this oen,even with the large weight concession, was at the end of her tether.

One has to admire the scheduling however.... much like a boxer with limited skills has his manager stay away from those conditions that would expose the overt weaknesses. Smart scheduling to all who cannot see through the scam. The tyro's are having a field day with a phenomenon against a weak challenge.

[Ballerina]

^^^ If no one has ever told you this before now, let me be the first. You're a pompous, pontificating poop.

So, there!

[NTamm1215]

The Travers was at a distance this one will never attempt as it is very obvious from the 14 or so hard cracks that Borel laid across her butt, not once but twice down two lanes, over two tracks, along the non-response from the same punishment, and with his description that she was staggering at the end of 9 furlongs, that this oen,even with the large weight concession, was at the end of her tether.

One has to admire the scheduling however.... much like a boxer with limited skills has his manager stay away from those conditions that would expose the overt weaknesses. Smart scheduling to all who cannot see through the scam. The tyro's are having a field day with a phenomenon against a weak challenge.


Yeah, win 5 Grade I's, beat males three times, older ones once, win four of the most prestigious races in America and it's all a scam. You're absolutely right.

The "Rachel can't go 10 furlongs" crowd kills me in that you're basing this assumption on the raceflow from two atypical performances. Are you saying that if Rachel goes the same suicidal fractions in a 10 furlong race that she did in the Woodward then she wouldn't get that extra furlong? Sure, I'd agree, but find me horses who can go sub-:23 for an opening quarter at ten panels.

The funniest to me are the folks who think they "ducked" the Travers because it was 10 furlongs.

NT

[Ballerina]

The Travers was at a distance this one will never attempt as it is very obvious from the 14 or so hard cracks that Borel laid across her butt, not once but twice down two lanes, over two tracks, along the non-response from the same punishment, and with his description that she was staggering at the end of 9 furlongs, that this oen,even with the large weight concession, was at the end of her tether.

One has to admire the scheduling however.... much like a boxer with limited skills has his manager stay away from those conditions that would expose the overt weaknesses. Smart scheduling to all who cannot see through the scam. The tyro's are having a field day with a phenomenon against a weak challenge.


Yeah, win 5 Grade I's, beat males three times, older ones once, win four of the most prestigious races in America and it's all a scam. You're absolutely right.

The "Rachel can't go 10 furlongs" crowd kills me in that you're basing this assumption on the raceflow from two atypical performances. Are you saying that if Rachel goes the same suicidal fractions in a 10 furlong race that she did in the Woodward then she wouldn't get that extra furlong? Sure, I'd agree, but find me horses who can go sub-:23 for an opening quarter at ten panels.

The funniest to me are the folks who think they "ducked" the Travers because it was 10 furlongs.

NT



Yeah, and the trainers of the horses in The Travers who breathed a sign of relief when they learned she wasn't running in it.

She would love LOVED THE HELL out of that slop track.

[zilzal]

Then there are the tracks involved. Churchill usually runs balanced, but Pimlico (where speed is king), Monmouth and Saratoga favor front running styles.

The powers behind this one have been, at the least, quite intelligent in putting her where she can look better than other spots.

Put her at the Fair Grounds, Keeneland, Arlington, or on the Pro-Ride garbage at Santa Anita and this track aiding baloney will disappear in an instant, so the connections know where to go and where to stay away from.

[ManOTaz]

Would ANYONE outside of racing know this one if the papers had not gone gah gah over it?

http://msnsmileys.net/r/smileys/ROFL/Rofl_3b.gif

You act like its just the papers?

Its more than that...

Doubtful.

Have you forgotten Vogue...

http://www.jessicachapel.com/images/ra1-vogue-500x325.jpg

Have you forgotten her wine

http://www.kj.com/auction/images/RALabel.jpg

Have you forgotten Sports Illustrated

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lre-ATHefoo/SnulqDVLsHI/AAAAAAAAARU/p8LSvzQyq9w/s400/scan0001.JPG

While it is a good shot in the arm for the sport, the emotional malarkey has no correlation with the reality of what greatness in a thoroughbred is all about.

Emotional malarkey?

You are really providing a great deal of entertainment to many of us on this site... :laugh:

This is a horse that has made history ---

OVER by winning the Preakness...first time in 80 some years...

AND OVER By winning the Haskell...first time since 1995 and the second time in stakes history..

AND OVER By winning the Woodward...first filly ever...to win it...

AND OVER AGAIN first filly in decades to beat males in three years....

By setting a stakes record in the Mother's Goose stakes...

Unlike the general media, thoroughbred literature is anchored in a history much like baseball that revers their real champions and makes little room for those highest accolades until a new one has earned the right to occupy the same stage as the best of all time. Superlatives today are a dime a dozen, shallow and irrespective of the real definition of the terms.

Well, that is a brash statement to make on a site like this...are you a newcomer?

This site has some pretty incredible historians...and many of them have yet to declare this filly "great" yet.

I myself -- if you have bothered to even read my thoughtful responses to your posts...have merely said she has had one of the greatest three year old seasons ever for a filly...

But I have reserved decision as to whether or not she is one of the greatest fillies ever...

I love Whittingham's description of Cougar II; "He was a useful horse."

Flashes in the pan are what they are: brilliance without context.


You cannot defend your statement...

You seek to compare Rachel to not "flashes in the pan" but accepted "great" fillies and mares...

The fact that at this point in her career she may not match them (though a strong case has been made in this regard which you have not bothered to challenged at all)...does not mean that she is not great...since the names you listed are among the greatest fillies in history...

And who has said this? That she ranks at this level?

Not me...though as I have said she compares favorably with the likes of Ruffian, Beldame, and Personal Ensign...

[Railbird]

I think it's hilarious that people think a 3-year-old filly (who, if she were TYPICAL, would have run in the Alabama or Personal Ensign instead) is ducking ANYONE by skipping a Grade I against 3-year-old males and instead going to a Grade I against older males.

If a 3-year-old COLT had topped older males in the Woodward....I would have applauded him, because I think a good older horse will typically best a good 3-year-old. The fact that it's a 3-year-old FILLY beating older males....that makes it something above and beyond.

And it wasn't just one freak performance over the boys. Plenty of fillies can beat boys ONCE. For her to beat them three times, in three grade I's, on three different tracks....if a colt won the Preakness, Haskell and Woodward, that's a pretty good season for a 3-year-old colt. For it to be a FILLY doing this, and then add in the wins in the "traditional" filly races like the Oaks and Mother Goose....she's a champion. She's a deserving one.

I can't wait til she comes back next year and blows the doors off everything to shut the doubters up once and for all.

(PS...this comes from a lifelong racing fan who writes about the sport seven days a week and who has used the word "great" to describe exactly two American racehorses in her lifetime. I know the difference between a flash in the pan and the real deal)

[ManOTaz]

The Travers was at a distance this one will never attempt as it is very obvious from the 14 or so hard cracks that Borel laid across her butt, not once but twice down two lanes, over two tracks, along the non-response from the same punishment, and with his description that she was staggering at the end of 9 furlongs, that this oen,even with the large weight concession, was at the end of her tether.

One has to admire the scheduling however.... much like a boxer with limited skills has his manager stay away from those conditions that would expose the overt weaknesses. Smart scheduling to all who cannot see through the scam. The tyro's are having a field day with a phenomenon against a weak challenge.


Yeah, win 5 Grade I's, beat males three times, older ones once, win four of the most prestigious races in America and it's all a scam. You're absolutely right.

The "Rachel can't go 10 furlongs" crowd kills me in that you're basing this assumption on the raceflow from two atypical performances. Are you saying that if Rachel goes the same suicidal fractions in a 10 furlong race that she did in the Woodward then she wouldn't get that extra furlong? Sure, I'd agree, but find me horses who can go sub-:23 for an opening quarter at ten panels.

The funniest to me are the folks who think they "ducked" the Travers because it was 10 furlongs.

NT



Yeah, and the trainers of the horses in The Travers who breathed a sign of relief when they learned she wasn't running in it.

She would love LOVED THE HELL out of that slop track.


Oh yeah...

And those who suggest that she is a flash in the pan and then offer comparisons of her not to other supposed flashes in the pan, but rather among the greatest fillies to ever race... :laugh:

[ManOTaz]

I think it's hilarious that people think a 3-year-old filly (who, if she were TYPICAL, would have run in the Alabama or Personal Ensign instead) is ducking ANYONE by skipping a Grade I against 3-year-old males and instead going to a Grade I against older males.

If a 3-year-old COLT had topped older males in the Woodward....I would have applauded him, because I think a good older horse will typically best a good 3-year-old. The fact that it's a 3-year-old FILLY beating older males....that makes it something above and beyond.

And it wasn't just one freak performance over the boys. Plenty of fillies can beat boys ONCE. For her to beat them three times, in three grade I's, on three different tracks....if a colt won the Preakness, Haskell and Woodward, that's a pretty good season for a 3-year-old colt. For it to be a FILLY doing this, and then add in the wins in the "traditional" filly races like the Oaks and Mother Goose....she's a champion. She's a deserving one.

I can't wait til she comes back next year and blows the doors off everything to shut the doubters up once and for all.

(PS...this comes from a lifelong racing fan who writes about the sport seven days a week and who has used the word "great" to describe exactly two American racehorses in her lifetime. I know the difference between a flash in the pan and the real deal)


RB...

I think zilzal is offering something of a ruse here and cannot seriously be making the statements she/he has made... :wink:

[zilzal]

Try me

[Hermes Redux]

Try me


Have you gotten your fill of attention yet? Had to use Rachel;) Gawd, the weight she carries...

[Alex]

^^^ If no one has ever told you this before now, let me be the first. You're a pompous, pontificating poop.

So, there!


I'm pretty sure zilzal posts on another board I sometimes visit, and believe me...you're not the first to tell him! :)

[zilzal]

Newspapers, not the real thoroughbred press, went wild for Riva, Azeri, Arazi, Silent Screen, Talkin' Man etc. etc. even old Wichone the champ of 1929 who went bust the next year........

History repeats itself once again.

Now IF this one comes back with the same style and tries against the good ones again...No doubt at a place like Oaklawn (another speed favoring oval) it will add to her credentials.

The lofty heights of greatness are to be reserved for 10 furlong fractions like these: 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23...or races won on the clubhouse turn or track records broken by almost two full seconds

[Hermes Redux]

zilzal, you should start your own SOME HISTORY LESSON thread about Rachel since you only lengthen this one in celebration of her every time you post here :evil:

[zilzal]

zilzal, you should start your own SOME HISTORY LESSON thread about Rachel since you only lengthen this one in celebration of her every time you post here :evil:


Yes for those who have no idea about what real greatness in the breed is all about, the "pretty horsey" crowd duped by newspaper propaganda, sure

[Hermes Redux]

zilzal, you should start your own SOME HISTORY LESSON thread about Rachel since you only lengthen this one in celebration of her every time you post here :evil:


Yes for those who have no idea about what real greatness in the breed is all about, the "pretty horsey" crowd duped by newspaper propaganda, sure


Eh, I think it is pretty dang sweet of you to give the rest of us a reason to re-post re-list, and re-hash her historic season. We never get the chance to do that enough here. :shocked:

[PJMIII]

zilzal, you should start your own SOME HISTORY LESSON thread about Rachel since you only lengthen this one in celebration of her every time you post here :evil:


Yes for those who have no idea about what real greatness in the breed is all about, the "pretty horsey" crowd duped by newspaper propaganda, sure


Eh, I think it is pretty dang sweet of you to give the rest of us a reason to re-post re-list, and re-hash her historic season. We never get the chance to do that enough here. :shocked:

You know I was just going to say the samething. We certainly are blessed by his/her presence aren't we.

[zilzal]

Dissent with logic is something the emotional crowd never quite gets and rather than contradict with logical responses they make it personal......

You would never survive a debate in a scientific arena

[Railbird]

Tell you what. You go be scientific. I'll go enjoy a great racehorse.

[zilzal]

Tell you what. You go be scientific. I'll go enjoy a great racehorse.


No one is saying not to. Just move into the realms or reality with this one.

[Railbird]

Tell you what. You go be scientific. I'll go enjoy a great racehorse.


No one is saying not to. Just move into the realms or reality with this one.


Realistically, she belongs with the all-time greats.

[zilzal]

[
[/quote]

No one is saying not to. Just move into the realms or reality with this one.
[/quote]

Realistically, she belongs with the all-time greats.
[/quote]

Want to wager this one is not headed toward the Hall of Fame horses listed in the American Racing Manual anytime soon or at all for that matter.

[Rainyday]

There are a few people of my acquaintance whose usual participation in racing is limited to very patiently letting me talk and waiting until they can change the subject -- who are now actively interested in Rachel. That's something.

That said, I think it's folly to try to evaluate Rachel now, either positively or negatively. Perspective matters a great deal. One of my great non-horse interests is history, and one of the things I've learnt from studying history is that what actually happened -- and what the popular imagination believes happened are often very different, and often discovering the first is impossible. Over time, some little details get lost, and others loom large. A hint of a possibility becomes a full-fledged belief; an unpleasant fact gets swept under the carpet.

This happens with personal history, too. As time passes, what once seemed important may seem trivial. What was trivial may suddenly seem great. It takes the passage of time to have a clearer idea of context.

As we've gone over many, many times in these forum's discussions, there is no objective way to compare horses from vastly different eras. Tracks change, race conditions change, bloodlines change, the size of the foal crop varies, culture changes. Furthermore, when you look at any great horse from the past--as in really examine, close up, and don't brush aside anything that might interfere with your perception of that horse--pretty much all of them have some niggling flaw.

So, in the absence of objective, concrete ways to say 'this horse was better than this' when looking back on history, we have--well, mostly we have really bitter arguments, judging from this forum. We also have myth. The great horses become legends. That's not to imply that anything about their greatness is necessarily untrue, but that the history of horse racing is often more about stories and impressions than mere numbers. Fiery red stallions, little iron horses, tragic fillies. We talk about heart and the look of eagles. There is something majestic and wonderful about a horse, something that raises above stopwatches and past performances, that inspires so many to fall in love with the animal, to trudge out at an unearthly hour in the morning to feed or ride or scoop poop or to weep for the death of an animal they never knew. I saw it in the faces of little city kids this weekend, toddling about the racetrack, and calling out excitedly, "Mommy, mommy, look at the horses!" What other animals inspire such awe?

So, in the realm of legend, the older horses will generally have the advantage. Often their numbers will look more impressive, although a reasoned analysis can always come up with reasons to say 'but.' However, oil paintings, black and white photographs and grainy film will always make the subject look more exotic and romantic than a brand new, crisp, clear digital photograph. What is old usually looks to be of more weight than what is new. I know as a child of the '80s, all the horses I grew up reading about, over and over again, from Man o'War to the heroes of the '70s, will always be enshrined in my head as 'the greats,' and it is hard to think of horses I've actually seen as belonging to the same class. Man o' War in particular will always seem like the greatest of greats to me--because I grew up reading so many books that mythologized him so completely it seemed hard to believe he had ever been flesh and blood at all.
This, I think, is why there is such a backlash whenever anyone suggests Ruffian might be overrated or anyone might come close to her--Ruffian sealed her legend by dying young, flashing greatness and then tragically cut off in her prime like a Romantic poet. She was a perfect little tragedy in equine form.

I think we're all always waiting for a great horse. Not necessarily a Triple Crown winner, or a horse that wins certain races, or a certain number of races, or runs a certain time, but a horse that sweeps you away, blots out all the ugliness the sport can contain, and reminds you of the sheer beauty of horse in flight. Some see this in Rachel. Others don't. Perhaps they're too caught up in the glories of the past. Perhaps it's easier to feel good about yourself by mocking others, and the starry-eyed are always the easiest target. Perhaps it's just too difficult to fall in love again when so many others have disappointed or, worse, died.

In any case, give her the benefit of the doubt. Let her write her own legend. Perhaps in twenty years, she'll only be a footnote, and those of who loved her were wrong. Or perhaps in twenty years we'll all be reading books mythologizing the sleek dark bay filly with an odd blaze and one white eye and telling new young fans, "Well, the current horse is just a flash in the pan. I saw Rachel Alexandra."

(Either way, we won't know yet, will we? :) Why not enjoy the ride?)

[Rainyday]

And, just glancing over the posts written while I worked on my behemoth :laugh:, part of my point is I don't think you can strip the emotion from horse racing. There are things you can measure, and there are horses overhyped beyond their records, but I do think, at the very bottom of their heart, most die hard racing fans are racing fans because they love seeing a majestic animal in full flight, even if they won't admit it. You can argue that point with me if you wish; I'll just acknowledge you to be an exception!

I think horse racing, as a sport, also has a rich and vibrant mythology, and I think that's part of the appeal of the sport. It's also why racing, more than many other sports, really needs good sportswriters. Bards to sing of equine glory. :azn:

[Railbird]

Want to wager this one is not headed toward the Hall of Fame horses listed in the American Racing Manual anytime soon or at all for that matter.


Hahahaha

I ran into one of the directors of the Hall of Fame right after she won the Woodward. I joked, "think we're looking at one of your future inductees?" and he said "she's going in on the first ballot, and we're going to have to hold the induction at SPAC."

[zilzal]

Future, possibly, if this one continues, but that is banking on a lot that has not taken place yet

[Railbird]

Future, possibly, if this one continues, but that is banking on a lot that has not taken place yet


No, it's "banking" on exactly what has ALREADY happened.

She is already the stuff of legends. If she continues, it only adds to her legacy.

[Surfside]

Here - let me give you the short version of 95 pages of punditry:

Yes she is
No she's not
Yes she is
No she's not

For the record, I'm with the "yes she ises."

So to counteract the next five negative posts:

Yes she is
Yes she is
Yes she is
Yes she is
Yes she is

For those who don't agree with me, get back to moving those goal posts! :grin:

[zilzal]

The only legend is how thirsty people are for quality that they settle for this one. There has not been a horse even close to being great in quite some time so the void is filled with a flashy streaker

[Surfside]

Chris... is that you?

[PJMIII]

Chris... is that you?

Zilzal's posts do sound familiar don't they? :smiley:

[Railbird]

The only legend is how thirsty people are for quality that they settle for this one. There has not been a horse even close to being great in quite some time so the void is filled with a flashy streaker


Like I said, I've used the word "great" to describe exactly two American horses in my lifetime. I know the difference between the flashes in the pan that people jump all over every year and the real deal that we will remember decades from now. She is the real deal.

[zilzal]

[/quote]

Like I said, I've used the word "great" to describe exactly two American horses in my lifetime. I know the difference between the flashes in the pan that people jump all over every year and the real deal that we will remember decades from now. She is the real deal.
[/quote]

You must have had a very short lifetime

[Surfside]

Whether or not Railbird's lifetime has been short up till now, arguing with you has no doubt made it seem interminable.

[ManOTaz]

Like I said, I've used the word "great" to describe exactly two American horses in my lifetime. I know the difference between the flashes in the pan that people jump all over every year and the real deal that we will remember decades from now. She is the real deal.
[/quote]

You must have had a very short lifetime
[/quote]

Why -- to hear you tell it there hasn't been a great horse in decades...

Curlin was an impressive horse...was he great?

I would agree he was not great...but he was a two time horse of the year which is pretty impressive...

And Railbird, you need not defend yourself to anyone...zilzal, Quiet Chris...whoever...

[ManOTaz]

Newspapers, not the real thoroughbred press, went wild for Riva, Azeri, Arazi, Silent Screen, Talkin' Man etc. etc. even old Wichone the champ of 1929 who went bust the next year........

History repeats itself once again.

Now IF this one comes back with the same style and tries against the good ones again...No doubt at a place like Oaklawn (another speed favoring oval) it will add to her credentials.

Why would it add to her credentials if its a speed favoring track which you denigrated in an earlier post? It seems you are being a little inconsistent...running a speed favoring tracks and excelleing as a 4 year old is more notable than doing it as a three year old?

Now I think you are Quiet Chris... :laugh:

The lofty heights of greatness are to be reserved for 10 furlong fractions like these: 25 1/5, 24, 23 4/5, 23 2/5, and 23...or races won on the clubhouse turn or track records broken by almost two full seconds


Well, you brought up Personal Ensign zilzal...and Rachel compares quite favorably to her...in fact in her 13 wins in a row did she have a streak of 9 stakes win in a row like Rachel has?

We know she did not beat males three times as a three year old...like Rachel did...

We know she did not face 3 other Grade I winning males in the Whitney...like Rachel did...

We know that she did not defeat a Belmont Stakes winner...like Rachel did... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

Dissent with logic is something the emotional crowd never quite gets and rather than contradict with logical responses they make it personal......

You would never survive a debate in a scientific arena


Funny thing about your posts zilzal...sort of like that Shakespeare line...fully of sound and fury signifiying nothing...

I have challenged you with arguments regarding Rachel's record and I have seen no response from you...only drive by postings...

Any time you actually want to try and support your outrageous statements we're ready and waiting to take you on... :grin:

[ManOTaz]

Want to wager this one is not headed toward the Hall of Fame horses listed in the American Racing Manual anytime soon or at all for that matter.


Hahahaha

I ran into one of the directors of the Hall of Fame right after she won the Woodward. I joked, "think we're looking at one of your future inductees?" and he said "she's going in on the first ballot, and we're going to have to hold the induction at SPAC."



:grin:

[ManOTaz]

Try me


I have -- I have responded repeatedly to your posts offering facts...and analysis regarding your statements...and you have not made a counter argument at all to support any of your statements...

So anytime you want to make your case against Rachel go ahead...

She compares favorably as I have stated to Ruffian, Personal Ensign and Beldame...

Argue otherwise...

Time to put up, my friend... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

She's a great dirt horse, tbf instead of knocking everything lets all be chuffed that we are seeing two new greats this year. I only slag down RA's achievements when people do the same to STS, though i have no fallacies in mind that i believe RA has stamina worries at 10f like STS has them at 12f, also that RA's competition is as questionable as STS claim to greatness in 9/10 starts. Theres always going to be negatives but this is a stupid battle.


Fair points Eswarah...

We will never know until they do it...but someone suggested that STS has already raced near the distance in the Arc...

I had not known that...

[Suni]

Well, you brought up Personal Ensign zilzal...and Rachel compares quite favorably to her...in fact in her 13 wins in a row did she have a streak of 9 stakes win in a row like Rachel has?

We know she did not beat males three times as a three year old...like Rachel did...

We know she did not face 3 other Grade I winning males in the Whitney...like Rachel did...

We know that she did not defeat a Belmont Stakes winner...like Rachel did... :wink:

To play devil's advocate a little in this endless thread just for fun...

Personal Ensign, I believe, had a 10 stake win streak, eight of which were G1 level, from 8f-10f. Rachel's stakes wins have been 8.5f-9.5f, so PE has her at the bookends.

While it's unclear how the Whitney horses from Rachel's race will pan out long term, PE defeated a future BC winner while Rachel has not, and the other horse in her race would hypothetically have been a G1 winner had the races been graded at the time. You also might not disagree that Gulch was a higher class horse than any Rachel defeated.

I think we'd all forget that Da'Tara was a Belmont winner if given the choice, and is far from a compelling point to make your argument.

[Hermes Redux]

[


No one is saying not to. Just move into the realms or reality with this one.
[/quote]

Realistically, she belongs with the all-time greats.
[/quote]

Want to wager this one is not headed toward the Hall of Fame horses listed in the American Racing Manual anytime soon or at all for that matter.
[/quote]

Yes!

[Hermes Redux]

Whether or not Railbird's lifetime has been short up till now, arguing with you has no doubt made it seem interminable.


Post of the Week.

ps I don't think it is Chris.

[Rainyday]

Well, you brought up Personal Ensign zilzal...and Rachel compares quite favorably to her...in fact in her 13 wins in a row did she have a streak of 9 stakes win in a row like Rachel has?

We know she did not beat males three times as a three year old...like Rachel did...

We know she did not face 3 other Grade I winning males in the Whitney...like Rachel did...

We know that she did not defeat a Belmont Stakes winner...like Rachel did... :wink:

To play devil's advocate a little in this endless thread just for fun...

Personal Ensign, I believe, had a 10 stake win streak, eight of which were G1 level, from 8f-10f. Rachel's stakes wins have been 8.5f-9.5f, so PE has her at the bookends.

While it's unclear how the Whitney horses from Rachel's race will pan out long term, PE defeated a future BC winner while Rachel has not, and the other horse in her race would hypothetically have been a G1 winner had the races been graded at the time. You also might not disagree that Gulch was a higher class horse than any Rachel defeated.

I think we'd all forget that Da'Tara was a Belmont winner if given the choice, and is far from a compelling point to make your argument.


Just to nitpick a little...other than the fact we won't have any idea how the horses Rachel's beaten will do at the BC for another five weeks, PE beat a future BC Sprint winner at 9 furlongs. Not sure which way to look at that.

And I think when people bring up Rachel beating a Belmont winner, they're referring to Summer Bird. I think everyone's forgotten Da'Tara...at least, I have!

[Rick1323]

Whether or not Railbird's lifetime has been short up till now, arguing with you has no doubt made it seem interminable.


Post of the Week.

ps I don't think it is Chris.


It is not Chris...he writes in full sentences

[ManOTaz]

Well, you brought up Personal Ensign zilzal...and Rachel compares quite favorably to her...in fact in her 13 wins in a row did she have a streak of 9 stakes win in a row like Rachel has?

We know she did not beat males three times as a three year old...like Rachel did...

We know she did not face 3 other Grade I winning males in the Whitney...like Rachel did...

We know that she did not defeat a Belmont Stakes winner...like Rachel did... :wink:

To play devil's advocate a little in this endless thread just for fun...

Personal Ensign, I believe, had a 10 stake win streak, eight of which were G1 level, from 8f-10f. Rachel's stakes wins have been 8.5f-9.5f, so PE has her at the bookends.

I do not think so...

She broke her maiden before the Frizette in 1986....and that was not a stakes race...

She won 9 more stakes races...but there are two non stakes races in there somewhere since she had 13 wins in a row...and in order for your 10 stake win streak to be correct than those races would have to come after she won the Breeders Cup Distaff since that is one of the 10 stakes races she has won... :wink:

While it's unclear how the Whitney (Woodward?) horses from Rachel's race will pan out long term, PE defeated a future BC winner (a future Sprint winner in a 10 furlong route race) while Rachel has not, and the other horse in her race would hypothetically have been a G1 winner had the races been graded at the time. You also might not disagree that Gulch was a higher class horse than any Rachel defeated.

I think very highly of Gulch...but he was one horse in one race and given his proficiency was shown as a sprinter I think Rachel could have probably taken him as well... :grin:

I think we'd all forget that Da'Tara was a Belmont winner if given the choice, and is far from a compelling point to make your argument.


I would not like to forget Da' Tara...he won the Belmont Stakes...

[zilzal]

What makes a great one?
Adaptability, variation, weight carrying ability, overcoming the adversity of at surface they disliked, beating the best, not contending versus the also rans of a marginal year.

Look at one like Forego runs versus the best carrying huge weights on bad ankles while outgunning the best sprinting middle distance and routing YEAR IN YEAR OUT.

You set you sites far too low to understand what greatness really is.

[ManOTaz]

What makes a great one?
Adaptability, variation, weight carrying ability, overcoming the adversity of at surface they disliked, beating the best, not contending versus the also rans of a marginal year.

Look at one like Forego runs versus the best carrying huge weights on bad ankles while outgunning the best sprinting middle distance and routing YEAR IN YEAR OUT.

You set you sites far too low to understand what greatness really is.


You are really wild, man...I love how you keep using horses in the Bloodhorse to compare to Rachel...now you have one in the top 10 you are comparing her to...

Who are these flashes in the pan that supposedly resemble her?

There is no horse that has ever done what she has done this year... :grin:

[zilzal]

Blood Horse...While there are hundreds of them around it is the American Racing Manual's from 1966 to the current one that are my source material library.

[Hermes Redux]

Blood Horse...While there are hundreds of them around it is the American Racing Manual's from 1966 to the current one that are my source material library.




Look for Rachel Alexandra coming soon to an American Racing Manual near you!

[Miss Woodford]

Zilzal, I'm just as much a connoseur of racing history as you are, and I'm usually the most cynical one when it comes to modern-day "greats", but Rachel has erased nearly every doubt I've had about her. I judge female racehorses on their own merit, and even if she were a colt Rachel Alexandra would still be a great horse. Her race times, the level of comptetition, how she wins, they're all superb. The fact that she's a 3yo filly makes her all the more intriguing to the common fan. In my opinion, she compares favorably to Miss Woodford, although MW has her beat at 2 1/2 miles :smiley:.

[zilzal]

Every year since the 50's I have heard this same nonsense including the Mineshaft's and the Ghostzapper's of later day. Flash in the pan: One season wonder

The real Hall of Fame that the DRF considers has a few that make this one look silly. Best of all is Twilight Tear: At three, Twilight Tear won fourteen out of seventeen races including eleven straight, beating both fillies and colts. In the prestigious Pimlico Special she defeated a Devil Diver and Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pensive in a time that matched the record set by Seabiscuit in the 1938 race. Her dominating performance in 1944 earned her Horse of the Year honors, the first filly to do so in forty years.

Then there are Gallorette, Busher, Bewtich

Flashed in the pan are commonplace
Revidere
Eptome
Our Mims
Wayward Lass
Heartlight No 1
Outstandingly
Brave Raj
Turkish Trousers
Arazi
Azeri
Houston
Silent Screen
Regal Gleam
Eliza

The list is long

[regret15]

Rachel has made history this year--that is a given. Emotion is tied to this sport like stripes on a zebra, that is why racing fans are some of the most passionate people around. (My Irish still gets up when I think about the 1980 Preakness------deep breath). Rachel has proven herself to be an exceptional three year old filly---and I look forward to seeing her as a four year old, I believe we will see a more mature talent burst forth.

[Suni]

I do not think so...

She broke her maiden before the Frizette in 1986....and that was not a stakes race...

She won 9 more stakes races...but there are two non stakes races in there somewhere since she had 13 wins in a row...and in order for your 10 stake win streak to be correct than those races would have to come after she won the Breeders Cup Distaff since that is one of the 10 stakes races she has won... :wink:

I think very highly of Gulch...but he was one horse in one race and given his proficiency was shown as a sprinter I think Rachel could have probably taken him as well... :grin:

I would not like to forget Da' Tara...he won the Belmont Stakes...


You specifically meant a streak of races where no race in between was a non-stakes race, I see. I always thought that was a bit of an odd thing to have matter but then we could also argue about how much those G3s Rachel won were really separated from allowances.

Gulch is a horse I believe could run any distance. I don't know that he specialized as a sprinter or simply that he won the Sprint race because he was the best horse. He had won at 9f previously and placed in the Belmont at 12f.

Da' Tara's ability is forgotten though, which is why he is no consequence in this sort of discussion.

[zilzal]

Rachel has made history this year--that is a given. Emotion is tied to this sport like stripes on a zebra, that is why racing fans are some of the most passionate people around. (My Irish still gets up when I think about the 1980 Preakness------deep breath). Rachel has proven herself to be an exceptional three year old filly---and I look forward to seeing her as a four year old, I believe we will see a more mature talent burst forth.

IF that is the case, then maybe the mantle of greatness might be bestowed. TODAY there is just a quality void at the top, inhabited by a horse that is the best of a poor bunch.

Breeding speed to speed and offering no graded stakes at marathon distances (not to mention the liberal use of medications allowed NO WHERE ELSE ON THE PLANET) is ruining the breed anyway.

I see unraced babies leaded up on bute and lasix when there is no indication of it being necessary. Goons are ruing the

[Miss Woodford]

Every year since the 50's I have heard this same nonsense including the Mineshaft's and the Ghostzapper's of later day. Flash in the pan: One season wonder

The real Hall of Fame that the DRF considers has a few that make this one look silly. Best of all is Twilight Tear: At three, Twilight Tear won fourteen out of seventeen races including eleven straight, beating both fillies and colts. In the prestigious Pimlico Special she defeated a Devil Diver and Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pensive in a time that matched the record set by Seabiscuit in the 1938 race. Her dominating performance in 1944 earned her Horse of the Year honors, the first filly to do so in forty years.

Then there are Gallorette, Busher, Bewtich

Flashed in the pan are commonplace
Revidere
Eptome
Our Mims
Wayward Lass
Heartlight No 1
Outstandingly
Brave Raj
Turkish Trousers
Arazi
Azeri
Houston
Silent Screen
Regal Gleam
Eliza

The list is long

I don't think Azeri counts as a flash in the pan, she's the best older mare since Personal Ensign. Our Mims, Silent Screen, Arazi, all excellent horses, if not hall of famers.

I half expected you to put poor Hansel in there. Remember him?

[zilzal]

There wasn't enough room to put all the flashes that popped out of the pan, but I never considered that one even of quality status, other than in the newspapers and those fellows don't know squat about racing. I know, I work with a bunch of them

[Hermes Redux]

There wasn't enough room to put all the flashes that popped out of the pan, but I never considered that one even of quality status, other than in the newspapers and those fellows don't know squat about racing. I know, I work with a bunch of them


At this rate, you will put Rachel's thread over 100 pages all by yourself tonight! Yea!

BTW, where does Zilzal fit in the pantheon of pan flashing?

[Proud Appeal]

Personally, I would not be surprised if Zilzal and Quiet Chris were one and the same.

[Miss Woodford]

There wasn't enough room to put all the flashes that popped out of the pan, but I never considered that one even of quality status, other than in the newspapers and those fellows don't know squat about racing. I know, I work with a bunch of them

Sorry, any horse that is one of the top 2yos of his crop,wins two Triple Crown races and places in the Haskell and Travers (among other things) is worthy of being called quality. He was pretty darn fast, too-he still holds a stakes record or two.

[regret15]

Just one question--zilzal who licked all the red off your lolly pop?

[zilzal]

Personally, I would not be surprised if Zilzal and Quiet Chris were one and the same.



Guess again

[Hermes Redux]

Personally, I would not be surprised if Zilzal and Quiet Chris were one and the same.



Guess again


Your lollypop was green?

[Surfside]

Congaree. :grin:

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.

[zilzal]

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.


What logical? requiring data to anoint?

When you use the word greatest to an unproven commodity you cheapen the meaning.

Greatest this year? I'll give you that but in a year where that adjective is used within a void of talent, relatively that is not saying much.

[Hermes Redux]

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.


What logical? requiring data to anoint?

When you use the word greatest to an unproven commodity you cheapen the meaning.

Greatest this year? I'll give you that but in a year where that adjective is used within a void of talent, relatively that is not saying much.


Wait. I know. The lollypop was blue green?

[Hermes Redux]

Congaree. :grin:

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.


zilzal has broken my 50 posts per day record. Crap.

[zilzal]

Congaree. :grin:

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.


zilzal has broken my 50 posts per day record. Crap.


Maybe that is because he lots of provable data to present not just personal opinion.

[Surfside]

Hermes, sadly, the race is not always to the swift.

Sometimes it's to the not so swift.

[Rick1323]

Damn that was good. I did time in hell for less. Had to go straight there too

[Surfside]

I'm packing right now. Is there a weight limit on the bags?

[zilzal]

Hermes, sadly, the race is not always to the swift.

Sometimes it's to the not so swift.


In THIS year's HOY competition that is exactly right

[Rick1323]

First bag is free. Second bag is $30. No golf clubs. You won't need them anyhow.

[Surfside]

And I bet the drinks aren't free either.

[Rick1323]

No drinks. But all the fire roasted peanuts you want.

[Hermes Redux]

Hermes, sadly, the race is not always to the swift.

Sometimes it's to the not so swift.


In THIS year's HOY competition that is exactly right


In the BDH competition you are further in front than dear Rachel.

[Surfside]

I guess it's welcome to the Mile Low Club.

[WesternDreamer]

zilzal, you should start your own SOME HISTORY LESSON thread about Rachel since you only lengthen this one in celebration of her every time you post here :evil:


Yes for those who have no idea about what real greatness in the breed is all about, the "pretty horsey" crowd duped by newspaper propaganda, sure


Eh, I think it is pretty dang sweet of you to give the rest of us a reason to re-post re-list, and re-hash her historic season. We never get the chance to do that enough here. :shocked:


I love it, I was afraid her thread would disappear to *gasp* the 2ND page!

(Off to pop popcorn and catch up on the next 5 pages of thread)

[Minersmarq]

Whether you are or you aren't, you're the same basic type.


What logical? requiring data to anoint?

When you use the word greatest to an unproven commodity you cheapen the meaning.

Greatest this year? I'll give you that but in a year where that adjective is used within a void of talent, relatively that is not saying much.

geez, we reeaally need a frickin ignore feature.....

[regret15]

zilzal--I must thank you for the enlightening conversation that we have been engaged in with you. I was not aware that the part of a horse's anatomy that resides directly beneath his tail, was capable of spouting such a profusion of words, truly, I believed it to be incapable of speech....again I thank you for this newly acquired knowledge.

(my apologies to that particular part of the noble horse's anatomy for the comparison)

and yes, Minersmarq---we need an ignore button

[e-man]

Personally, I would not be surprised if Zilzal and Quiet Chris were one and the same.


I know Zilzal, I've talked horses with Zilzal, Zilzal is my friend -- Quiet Chris is no Zilzal.

Toodle-pip,
E-man

[e-man]

As I wrote before, "Zilzal" is a friend of mine. He holds strong opinions, sure -- but unlike many others in this forum, he has the knowledge and background to back it up.

In my experience he is very generous with his time and insights -- with those who are willing to listen and learn, and/or debate rationally. But not with those who have already made up their minds, and dismiss any opposing viewpoints in a fussy, frantic fury -- and I do mean you and you and especially you.

Warm fuzzies,
E-man

[Hermes Redux]

e-man, sticking up for your pal is swell and all, really. But what zilzal presented today was not rational thought or debate, just posturing and baiting anyone who has a positive outlook on Rachel. Someone who is truly reasonable would never present an argument the way he did today and pretend to be fair or interested in a valuable exchange.

Nor do I think someone who has to pull out an American Racing Manual to offer an opinion has deductive reasoning skill. I'd say the information is lost on him, just as he lost credibility with many of us today.

Read your own post again, then check out your friend's frantic postings today in a mighty effort to discredit a filly that has truly made history. Why?

[carbonite]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.


No, I was not.

And thank you: that's a pretty good illustration of my point. You were (understandably) caught up in the excitement of that day, as I think all of us were--even those who were watching on simulcast from another track. It was an excellent crowd. The attendance that day on closing weekend was 31,171; by comparison, last year's closing day crowd was 28,578, about 10% lower. There is--as the frenetic frenzy in here indicates--enormous excitement generated by this filly among those of us who already attend the races. For the hyperbole that prompted my original response about capturing the heart of the public, etc., that just isn't borne out. Some people here remember Secretariat or Ruffian and know what that kind of popular acclaim can feel like. A few, too young for that era, can at least remember when a horse named Cigar made fairly regular appearances on sports shows. Rachel has not reached even that level of popular acclaim yet. Perhaps she will, but she has a way to go.

I'm very impressed by her as a racehorse, but I don't see the case for cultural icon. Yet.

[Rainyday]

I'm very impressed by her as a racehorse, but I don't see the case for cultural icon. Yet.


Well, she did make Vogue! :azn:

[e-man]

e-man, sticking up for your pal is swell and all, really.


Awfully decent of you to say so, really.



But what zilzal presented today was not rational thought or debate, just posturing and baiting anyone who has a positive outlook on Rachel. Someone who is truly reasonable would never present an argument the way he did today and pretend to be fair or interested in a valuable exchange.


I got yer rational argument right here....



Historically there are many fillies much more impressive than this flash in the pan.

It takes understanding the pecking order of history.

Peck this, Zilzal.
[/quote]

Charming. Quite rational, too. But I guess that's just how you roll....

I'm done here for tonight. "Zilzal" can defend himself quite well, I'm sure -- if he can be bothered to do so....

Later... much,
E-man

[Hermes Redux]

e-man, roll this;)

Let me know when one of his esteemed fillies wins the Preakness and Woodward, too. Anyone who pisses on her repeated history making season is a blind man, the Ky Oaks by 20, Preakness first time since 1924, first time from the 13 hole on the pace, Mother Goose stakes record and by 19, Haskell by 6 going away a couple of ticks off the track record in slop over the top 3 yr old colt and a top 3 yr old sprinter, and then the Woodward - first filly to win the race in the 55 years it has been around, after running every step of the way.

Your pal can find the time, trust me, he broke my one day posting record today :evil:

Maybe he'll even give us an autographed copy of his tome, "American Racing's Flash In The Pan Manual."

[carbonite]

I certainly don't agree with everything zilzal has posted, and I can certainly understand anyone who believes that Rachel will, in time, force him to reverse his position. But I think this post is a fundamentally sound, tough-minded assessment of the limitations inherent in bestowing historical accolade based on only one dominant season--though I would point out that fragile as he was, Ghostzapper actually manifested his ability in three separate seasons and should not be lumped with Mineshaft.



Every year since the 50's I have heard this same nonsense including the Mineshaft's and the Ghostzapper's of later day. Flash in the pan: One season wonder

The real Hall of Fame that the DRF considers has a few that make this one look silly. Best of all is Twilight Tear: At three, Twilight Tear won fourteen out of seventeen races including eleven straight, beating both fillies and colts. In the prestigious Pimlico Special she defeated a Devil Diver and Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pensive in a time that matched the record set by Seabiscuit in the 1938 race. Her dominating performance in 1944 earned her Horse of the Year honors, the first filly to do so in forty years.

Then there are Gallorette, Busher, Bewtich

Flashed in the pan are commonplace
Revidere
Eptome
Our Mims
Wayward Lass
Heartlight No 1
Outstandingly
Brave Raj
Turkish Trousers
Arazi
Azeri
Houston
Silent Screen
Regal Gleam
Eliza

The list is long

[Songbird]

Azeri was a flash in the pan?

[ManOTaz]

I certainly don't agree with everything zilzal has posted, and I can certainly understand anyone who believes that Rachel will, in time, force him to reverse his position. But I think this post is a fundamentally sound, tough-minded assessment of the limitations inherent in bestowing historical accolade based on only one dominant season--though I would point out that fragile as he was, Ghostzapper actually manifested his ability in three separate seasons and should not be lumped with Mineshaft.



Every year since the 50's I have heard this same nonsense including the Mineshaft's and the Ghostzapper's of later day. Flash in the pan: One season wonder

The real Hall of Fame that the DRF considers has a few that make this one look silly. Best of all is Twilight Tear: At three, Twilight Tear won fourteen out of seventeen races including eleven straight, beating both fillies and colts. In the prestigious Pimlico Special she defeated a Devil Diver and Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes winner Pensive in a time that matched the record set by Seabiscuit in the 1938 race. Her dominating performance in 1944 earned her Horse of the Year honors, the first filly to do so in forty years.

Then there are Gallorette, Busher, Bewtich

Flashed in the pan are commonplace
Revidere
Eptome
Our Mims
Wayward Lass
Heartlight No 1
Outstandingly
Brave Raj
Turkish Trousers
Arazi
Azeri
Houston
Silent Screen
Regal Gleam
Eliza

The list is long



I would agree C...

He finally put some support to his blanket statements and makes a nice case...a case that will be full of holes when she races next year and continues to show improvement as we fully expect...but a case nonetheless...

Kudos zilzal -- didn't think you had it in you... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

Azeri was a flash in the pan?


That was the one I had a question about...

Azeri is not a horse I consider a flash in the pan...either...

And while some of these other horses he has mentioned like Mineshaft and Ghostzapper have only had one season of impressive racing...they -- unlike Rachel -- did so as older horses that were retired once they demonstrated their racing prowess -- they found an ability that was not exhibited as three year olds -- they were late bloomers --- whereas Rachel bloomed as a three year old...and I beleive there is more room for improvement with her than there was with Ghostzapper and Mineshaft...

How many of the horses in zilzal's list were three year olds?

Maybe he is willing to enlightten us in this regard....

[ManOTaz]

e-man, sticking up for your pal is swell and all, really. But what zilzal presented today was not rational thought or debate, just posturing and baiting anyone who has a positive outlook on Rachel. Someone who is truly reasonable would never present an argument the way he did today and pretend to be fair or interested in a valuable exchange.

Nor do I think someone who has to pull out an American Racing Manual to offer an opinion has deductive reasoning skill. I'd say the information is lost on him, just as he lost credibility with many of us today.

Read your own post again, then check out your friend's frantic postings today in a mighty effort to discredit a filly that has truly made history. Why?

e-man....HR -- is right on the money here...

I responded to his specious accusations and he offered nothing to buttress his arguments...

[Suni]

Just to nitpick a little...other than the fact we won't have any idea how the horses Rachel's beaten will do at the BC for another five weeks, PE beat a future BC Sprint winner at 9 furlongs. Not sure which way to look at that.

And I think when people bring up Rachel beating a Belmont winner, they're referring to Summer Bird. I think everyone's forgotten Da'Tara...at least, I have!


It was more a statement on Gulch's class, which got him all the way to 12f, more than anything else. Best as a sprinter is perhaps less debatable because he did win the BC Sprint, but I have a strong opinion that many routers could take down a race like the Sprint were they campaigned for it.

[zilzal]

"There is nothing more dangerous than IGNORANCE in action." Goethe

We see it displayed all the time.

Hofsteader, Jacoby and now Chris Mooney has written about it too.

[zilzal]

When people throw of the terms greatness when the there is NO substantiated qulaification other than the emotional frenzy of the "pretty horsey" mentality, those in the business have a hearty belly laugh.

DRF columnists, racing secretaries, prominent sports writers are only ones objectively capable of bestowing rational titles on thoroughbred greatness because only THEY have the historical understanding as to where that title should be pointed.

Caliing marginal animals great cheapens the word and does a complete disservice to those really great animals that competed for years against the best, not some 2nd rate competition to come out with credible performances that stay in the history books such as Robertson's The History of Thoroughbred Racing in America. The ones that impress the giants like Charles Hatton or Hirsch are the only ones that deserve being introduced to that lofty position not the short sighted fan who has no idea as to what true knock you socks off ongoing quality looks like.

Alone on the lead doesn't make it but represents pace favoritism....as regards the exhaustion at Saratoga. One race a champion does not make but the newspapers will go along way in promoting this one as this year, a truly feeble group made No headway, at least on dirt, to turn any heads so this one gets HOY by default.

If, and this is a very big IF, the connections should some intestinal fortitude and go out and try all comers with some weight on her shoulders, tries a foot beyond 9 furlongs, and continues this streak, then this one might move up close to the arena called greatness...but not yet.

[ManOTaz]

She has captured the heart of the public, she has that magic that transcends just being another race horse,


I just want to say that I share your appreciation of Rachel, and while I appreciate the lyrical flight of your enthusiastic prose, I am sorry you have not yet seen a horse capture the heart of the public, and I look forward to reading what you write when it happens. A pretty large number of people who do not follow racing have contact with me in the course of an ordinary day. A couple of them have even mentioned once or twice this year that, um, horse, what's her name? Most have not even registered her existence. For people who follow racing, this is a special year; but for the world at large, nothing much has happened. I am at least as likely to get a question about that little horse that won the Derby as about a filly, and if I try to outline what she's done, they uh don't really care. Maybe next year if she continues to be special she'll develop some popular traction, but I don't think she really caught on outside the racing world this year.

Just my humble opinion.


Were you at Saratoga for the Woodward? There is no way that every one of those people there is a diehard, dedicated racing fan like everyone on this board.....there were people there who literally had never seen a live race before in their lives, but they saw her win the Preakness on TV or they read about her Haskell and they came out to see HER, not because they were "normal" racing fans who would have watched the Woodward any other year. They were 10 deep around the paddock half an hour before the race, and they screamed her name and Calvin's name the whole time. It was amazing.


No, I was not.

And thank you: that's a pretty good illustration of my point. You were (understandably) caught up in the excitement of that day, as I think all of us were--even those who were watching on simulcast from another track. It was an excellent crowd. The attendance that day on closing weekend was 31,171; by comparison, last year's closing day crowd was 28,578, about 10% lower.

Let's try and compare apples and apples instead of apples with giveaway closing day oranges...

The Woodward attendance for 2008...was... 22,572
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2008-08-30-curlin-saratoga_N.htm

The Woodward attendance for 2009...was...31,171

I believe that's a 40% increase...not the 10% you suggested...on a weekend that was after school had restarted in many areas since Labor Day was so late this year...is a pretty impressive surge in traffic at track -- particularly when the Travers Stakes only drew slightly more the previous weekend (34,221) ... :wink:
http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/9987768/Summer-Bird-soars-in-Travers-Stakes

There is--as the frenetic frenzy in here indicates--enormous excitement generated by this filly among those of us who already attend the races. For the hyperbole that prompted my original response about capturing the heart of the public, etc., that just isn't borne out. Some people here remember Secretariat or Ruffian and know what that kind of popular acclaim can feel like. A few, too young for that era, can at least remember when a horse named Cigar made fairly regular appearances on sports shows. Rachel has not reached even that level of popular acclaim yet. Perhaps she will, but she has a way to go.

Well, you can dispute whether or not Rachel has captured the hearts of the public all you want...

I can tell you there are three horses that I have seen do that this year...Zenyatta, Mine That Bird, and Rachel Alexandra...

I saw people at the Preakness, Haskell, and Woodward that ordinarily would not go to see a horse race...but that were coming because of MTB and Rachel in the Preakness AND Rachel in the Haskell and Woodward...

Attendance at Monmouth was down because of the weather...but attendance at Saratoga Springs increased by almost 9,000 persons this year over Curlin's draw...that is significant if you really look at it...and realize that this was with a late Labor Day when many schools were in session as I mentioned...

No one is saying she is Secretariart...but a horse does not have to be Secretariat to capture the public's heart...

Smarty Jones and Barbaro recently captured their hearts...why can't three separate horses do it in one year?

I'm very impressed by her as a racehorse, but I don't see the case for cultural icon. Yet.


C --- When is the last time a horse got a feature story in Vogue magazine?

When is the last time you saw a horse trainer cry at a race?

[ManOTaz]

"There is nothing more dangerous than IGNORANCE in action." Goethe

We see it displayed all the time.

Hofsteader, Jacoby and now Chris Mooney has written about it too.


You have given us many good examples during the past few days...

[Hermes Redux]

So you are finally giving the nod to Rachel now after all? Since long time DRF columnists, even a publisher, Steve Crist, and DRF lead Handicapper Mike Watchmaker, among many other long time actual turf writers have agreed that the filly is one for the ages?

I have to give you credit. You can admit when you are wrong. Although, for many of us, we don't need someone else to tell us what we can see and interpret with our own eyes, or what we can feel, for that matter.

Dismissing any opinion that you disagree with as a "pretty horsy" point of view just reveals a bitter empty vessel from your side of the table. Listing a bunch of horses that no one here would equate with Rachel and then adding a horse like Azeri to THAT list, a HOY, and 3 time Champion Older Female tells the rest of us all we need to know about your lack of rational thought process or historical perspective. But listing Rachel as a "marginal animal" kind of puts it all over the top, don't you think? Almost leaves me thinking that you are just trolling with a complete lack of sincerity here? :wink:

[ManOTaz]

When people throw of the terms greatness when the there is NO substantiated qulaification other than the emotional frenzy of the "pretty horsey" mentality, those in the business have a hearty belly laugh.

Am I wasting my typing here -- or are you actually going to respond?

Rachel Alexandra is the second filly to win the Preakness Stakes...she made history here...

Rachel Alexandra is the second filly to win the Haskell Stakes...she made history there

Rachel is the first filly to win the Woodward Stakes...she made history there...

Rachel is the first three year old filly in decades to beat males three times in one year...

She won more stakes races in a row than Personal Ensign...one of the "great horses" that you have compared her to...

She set a stakes record at Belmont Park in the Mother Goose.

She has had one of best three year old seasons for a filly in horse racing history...comparable to that of Beldame and Ruffian...

DRF columnists, racing secretaries, prominent sports writers are only ones objectively capable of bestowing rational titles on thoroughbred greatness because only THEY have the historical understanding as to where that title should be pointed.

Well, we have something that we can agree on then...trusting the sports writers...now I am not yet ready to proclaim her "one of the greatest fillies ever" -- but some of them are...perhaps you should heed your own sentiments... :laugh:

?I have to give the nod to Rachel Alexandra over Ruffian,? said D. Wayne Lukas, who trained Winning Colors. ?Of the two, she?s the one who stepped up and won the type of races that matter most in this sport, classic races and races against the best males around. Ruffian was a brilliant, brilliant filly, but that?s something she never did.?

Dave Johnson, the veteran announcer who called 10 of Ruffian?s 11 races, agrees.

?Ruffian and Rachel Alexandra are the two best fillies I have ever seen in person or on film or video,? Johnson said. ?They are clearly the two best and whoever is No. 3 doesn?t even come close. The Haskell is what tipped me in favor of Rachel Alexandra over Ruffian. I know how great Ruffian was, but Rachel Alexandra?s win in the Haskell was that impressive.?

?Sure, they belong in the same breath,? said the trainer Barclay Tagg, who was Ruffian?s exercise rider during a portion of her 2-year-old year and who won the 2003 Kentucky Derby with Funny Cide. ?Ruffian set or equaled a track record every time she ran, from 5 ? furlongs to a mile and a half, so she was a pretty crafty filly. She did everything she was asked to do, and did it better than anybody else. Rachel?s beaten the Kentucky Derby winner and she beat the Belmont winner, and won the Preakness. Yes, you have to compare them.?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/05/sports/05racing.html?pagewanted=print

Summer Bird's trainer Tim Ice said he was proud of his colt for hanging in for second, but was impressed with the way Rachel took command in the stretch.

"That's Rachel Alexandra. That's what everyone came to see," Ice said. "We'll take a look at the Travers. If she's in there, she's in there. I'm not going to invite her."
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/aug/03/sports/sp-rachel-alexandra3?pg=2

Izenberg: Preakness greatness did not come easily to winner Rachel Alexandra
By Jerry Izenberg/Columnist Emeritus
May 16, 2009, 8:54PM
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/izenbergcol/index.ssf/2009/05/preakness_greatness_did_not_co.html

Rachel Alexandra romps in Haskell, stakes claim to title of greatest filly ever
By Colin S Stephenson
August 02, 2009, 8:15PM
http://njo.live.advance.net/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2009/08/rachel_alexandra_romps_in_hask.html

?Champions show different dimensions,? said Robby Albarado, who rode Macho Again. ?She is in a league of her own. She has beaten every top division we have in racing. Older horses, her age, it doesn?t matter. No matter what they throw at her, she?ll beat them.?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/sports/06racing.html?_r=1

Countdown to the Cup: Rachel Rocks the Spa
By Steve Haskin
Updated: Thursday, September 10, 2009 3:04 PM
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52476/countdown-to-the-cup-rachel-rocks-the-spa

Joan of Arc defeated the English in the Hundred Years? War. The Amazon queen Penthesileia killed hundreds of Greeks in the Trojan War. Zenobia, the Syrian queen, crushed the Roman legion. All three of these powerful and feared female warriors eventually succumbed to male foes.

So far, the same cannot be said of Rachel Alexandra, who has decimated both male and female opponents in routs, has tasted victory on many of the nation?s most storied battlefields, and now in the $750,000 Woodward Stakes (gr. I) Sept. 5 has shown she can conquer older males in hand-to-hand combat.

Rachel Alexandra adds to her greatness
Associated Press
Monday, August 3, 2009
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/03/SPOM1932SG.DTL&feed=rss.sports#ixzz0Sn5yCL3X

Rachel Alexandra is as close to greatness as we will see
Posted Thursday, Sep. 03, 2009
By GARY WEST
gwest@star-telegram.com
http://www.star-telegram.com/808/story/1586532.html#

Rachel Alexandra proves her greatness
TEXT SIZE By: JOE JONES
Bucks County Courier Times
http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/news_details/article/339/2009/september/14/rachel-alexandra-proves-her-greatness.html

Rachel Holds Off Macho Again in Woodward
by Jason Shandler
Date Posted: 9/5/2009 10:04:12 PM
Last Updated: 9/8/2009 4:40:12 PM
Rachel Alexandra cemented herself as one of the best fillies of all-time in a race for the ages, as she set a suicidal pace and then was all out under Calvin Borel to hold off a bold charge from Macho Again to win the $750,000 Woodward Stakes (gr. I) (VIDEO) by a head in electrifying fashion Sept. 5 at Saratoga.
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52440/rachel-holds-off-macho-again-in-woodward/print

And there are more.... :wink:

Caliing marginal animals great cheapens the word and does a complete disservice to those really great animals that competed for years against the best, not some 2nd rate competition to come out with credible performances that stay in the history books such as Robertson's The History of Thoroughbred Racing in America.

Tell that to your sportswriters...many of them were calling Big Brown one of the best ever...

I have said over and over and over again that I do not believe that she is one of the greatest fillies ever....yet...

Only that she has had one of the greatest three year old seasons of a filly in American thoroughbred racing history...

I would welcome you to demonstrate fillies that have had better three year old seasons...

I will grant you that Ruffian and Beldame come to mind...but I have also stated my belief that she compares favorably to both of those horses...

Comparing favorably does not mean that she is necessarily "better" or "greater" than these horses, but only that she has similar accomplishments...

I agree with you that throwing around "great" when it is not appropriate does diminish the term which is why I have limited my comments to what she has done as a three year old...

But, I believe your reluctance to recognize any of her historical achievements as meriting recognition...as a special filly is just as perverse as those who try to make the case at this stage that she is the greatest filly ever...IMHO...

The ones that impress the giants like Charles Hatton or Hirsch are the only ones that deserve being introduced to that lofty position not the short sighted fan who has no idea as to what true knock you socks off ongoing quality looks like.

Alone on the lead doesn't make it but represents pace favoritism....as regards the exhaustion at Saratoga. One race a champion does not make but the newspapers will go along way in promoting this one as this year, a truly feeble group made No headway, at least on dirt, to turn any heads so this one gets HOY by default.

She has more than one race...she was not on the lead in the Haskell...she showed she could rate there...

If, and this is a very big IF, the connections should some intestinal fortitude and go out and try all comers with some weight on her shoulders, tries a foot beyond 9 furlongs, and continues this streak, then this one might move up close to the arena called greatness...but not yet.


I agree...not yet...when comparing in the "ever" category to tall horses...

But her three year old season is undeniably one of the greatest ever...

If you dsiagree, please show me other three year old seasons which are superior to hers...

[ManOTaz]

So you are finally giving the nod to Rachel now after all? Since long time DRF columnists, even a publisher, Steve Crist, and DRF lead Handicapper Mike Watchmaker, among many other long time actual turf writers have agreed that the filly is one for the ages?

I have to give you credit. You can admit when you are wrong. Although, for many of us, we don't need someone else to tell us what we can see and interpret with our own eyes, or what we can feel, for that matter.

Dismissing any opinion that you disagree with as a "pretty horsie" point of view just reveals a bitter empty vessel from your side of the table. Listing a bunch of horses that no one here would equate with Rachel and then adding a horse like Azeri to THAT list, a HOY, and 3 time Champion Older Female tells the rest of us all we need to know about your lack of rational thought process or historical perspective.


Here, here. :grin:

[Railbird]

Do you consider John Nerud a "pretty pony" supporter?


?I think she?s the best I?ve ever seen,? said 96-year-old racing legend John Nerud. ?I don?t compare her to anyone. I?m not afraid to say she?s better than Ruffian, because she is. They sent two speed horses after her and made her go in :22 4/5, then they came after her one at a time and she put them all away. Those were tough older horses and they tried everything they could to get her beat and they couldn?t.?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52476/countdown-to-the-cup-rachel-rocks-the-spa

How about Barclay Tagg?


?Sure, they belong in the same breath,? said Tagg. ?Ruffian set or equaled a track record every time she ran, from 5? furlongs to a mile and a half, so she was a pretty crafty filly. She did everything she was asked to do, and did it better than anybody else. Rachel?s beaten the Kentucky Derby winner and she beat the Belmont winner, and won the Preakness ? you have to compare them.?

Tagg, who at the time worked for trainer Frank Whitely, galloped Ruffian as a 2-year-old during the winter in South Carolina, he said.

http://www.nyra.com/saratoga/stories/Notes09032009.shtml

Is Kiaran McLaughlin "blinded by the media" too?


?She?s beat everybody that?s gotten in the gate with her this year,? McLaughlin said. ?Luckily, I haven?t gotten in the gate with her and don?t look forward to getting in the gate with her with Asiatic Boy. She?s a great filly. The word ?great? is thrown around too often in our industry, but to me she?s one of the great ones and she?s great for the sport, and it's nice that Mr. (Jess) Jackson chose some of these spots to show how great she is. He said he?s hoping to run her next year as a 4-year-old, and that's nice to hear, but I don?t look forward to running against her ever, with anything.?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52274/rachel-may-send-asiatic-boy-to-del-mar

And I've seen, with my own eyes, Bill Mott, Wayne Lukas, and Nick Zito looking at her and shaking their heads in total admiration.

Do these guys have enough qualifications and expertise for you to respect their opinions?

[Hermes Redux]

Hey Railbird, zilzal is PUBLISHED. So HE knows more than that bunch of HOF'ers!

[Rick1323]

Hey Railbird, zilzal is PUBLISHED. So HE knows more than that bunch of HOF'ers!


To paraphrase a famous author....Publish this.

[Hermes Redux]

Hey Railbird, zilzal is PUBLISHED. So HE knows more than that bunch of HOF'ers!


To paraphrase a famous author....Publish this.


Rachel's thread is 100 pages now...thanks Rick, zilzal, and all the other prolific contributors to her legacy and fame! :kiss:

[ManOTaz]

Do you consider John Nerud a "pretty pony" supporter?


?I think she?s the best I?ve ever seen,? said 96-year-old racing legend John Nerud. ?I don?t compare her to anyone. I?m not afraid to say she?s better than Ruffian, because she is. They sent two speed horses after her and made her go in :22 4/5, then they came after her one at a time and she put them all away. Those were tough older horses and they tried everything they could to get her beat and they couldn?t.?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52476/countdown-to-the-cup-rachel-rocks-the-spa

How about Barclay Tagg?


?Sure, they belong in the same breath,? said Tagg. ?Ruffian set or equaled a track record every time she ran, from 5? furlongs to a mile and a half, so she was a pretty crafty filly. She did everything she was asked to do, and did it better than anybody else. Rachel?s beaten the Kentucky Derby winner and she beat the Belmont winner, and won the Preakness ? you have to compare them.?

Tagg, who at the time worked for trainer Frank Whitely, galloped Ruffian as a 2-year-old during the winter in South Carolina, he said.

http://www.nyra.com/saratoga/stories/Notes09032009.shtml

Is Kiaran McLaughlin "blinded by the media" too?


?She?s beat everybody that?s gotten in the gate with her this year,? McLaughlin said. ?Luckily, I haven?t gotten in the gate with her and don?t look forward to getting in the gate with her with Asiatic Boy. She?s a great filly. The word ?great? is thrown around too often in our industry, but to me she?s one of the great ones and she?s great for the sport, and it's nice that Mr. (Jess) Jackson chose some of these spots to show how great she is. He said he?s hoping to run her next year as a 4-year-old, and that's nice to hear, but I don?t look forward to running against her ever, with anything.?

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/52274/rachel-may-send-asiatic-boy-to-del-mar

And I've seen, with my own eyes, Bill Mott, Wayne Lukas, and Nick Zito looking at her and shaking their heads in total admiration.

Do these guys have enough qualifications and expertise for you to respect their opinions?


They have to be columnists in the DRF...as if none of these others have a clue... :grin:

Pletcher too said he was glad Rachel was not entered in the Travers Stakes...because if she was his horse would have finished out of the money...

[seahawkgal]

I have been following this sport since 1977. I have called very few horses "great"...She is one of them. I believe those trainers mean what they say. They see the same thing I and many others have. That's all I am going to say.

[ManOTaz]

Hey Railbird, zilzal is PUBLISHED. So HE knows more than that bunch of HOF'ers!


To paraphrase a famous author....Publish this.


Rachel's thread is 100 pages now...thanks Rick, zilzal, and all the other prolific contributors to her legacy and fame! :kiss:


I was just about to congratulate you HR... http://www.allemoticons.com/Avatars/clap2.gif

100 Pages of Rachel, Rachel, Rachel...

[regret15]

I have been following this sport since 1977. I have called very few horses "great"...She is one of them. I believe those trainers mean what they say. They see the same thing I and many others have. That's all I am going to say.



Ditto^---fan since 1966

[Surfside]

"There is nothing more dangerous than IGNORANCE in action." Goethe

We see it displayed all the time.

Hofsteader, Jacoby and now Chris Mooney has written about it too.


You have given us many good examples during the past few days...


Correction: You has given us many good examples during the past few days...that's how us published types write.

[Surfside]

Congrats, Hermes. Over a hundred pages served!

[zilzal]

There is a term, used in the military buid up to the debacle of Iraq, that describes whenerver a "closed" system re-inforces a conclusion called
n. The reinforcement of set beliefs among like-minded people, leading to miscalculations and errors in judgment.


Happens all the time in systems closed to logic

[carbonite]

Let's try and compare apples and apples instead of apples with giveaway closing day oranges...

The Woodward attendance for 2008...was... 22,572
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2008-08-30-curlin-saratoga_N.htm

The Woodward attendance for 2009...was...31,171

I believe that's a 40% increase...not the 10% you suggested...on a weekend that was after school had restarted in many areas since Labor Day was so late this year...is a pretty impressive surge in traffic at track -- particularly when the Travers Stakes only drew slightly more the previous weekend (34,221) ... :wink:
http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/9987768/Summer-Bird-soars-in-Travers-Stakes


MoT, I may not have been clear enough in my communication. Regret posted that this was a horse who generated excitement throughout the general public; I pointed out that that was hyperbole. Railbird contested my claim, citing the throngs at Saratoga that flocked to Rachel were so large that they had to be more than just regular racing fans. I posted attendance figures to indicate that, to the contrary, those are the kinds of numbers that show up at Saratoga on any major racing day. As your own post underlines, by pointing out that there were fewer people watching Rachel than there were in the same venue a few weeks earlier for the Travers. For anyone who recalls what it feels like when the non-racing public genuinely gets excited about a racehorse, it's easy to see that the passionate excitement that Rachel generates is hottest in enclaves like this one, and is relatively unnoticed by the world at large.



C --- When is the last time a horse got a feature story in Vogue magazine?

When is the last time you saw a horse trainer cry at a race?

What oddball questions. I have seen trainers do many things--including cry--at the races; I couldn't tell you when was the last time. I have no idea if Vogue has ever done a feature story on a racehorse--I heard that they had a photo shoot of her this year; I don't know if there was a feature story or not. I don't really read Vogue, nor do I think of it as the pulse of the people. I understand why people allude to Native Dancer on the cover of Time, or Secretariat's triple crown of Time, Newsweek and Sports Illustrated; I don't think a photo shoot in Vogue is anything comparable.



Rachel's thread is 100 pages now...thanks Rick, zilzal, and all the other prolific contributors to her legacy and fame! :kiss:

In all fairness, I think Man o Taz deserves most of the credit: about 38 pages are just that poster's quotations of previous posts.

[karmamaker]

If, and this is a very big IF, the connections should some intestinal fortitude and go out and try all comers with some weight on her shoulders, tries a foot beyond 9 furlongs, and continues this streak, then this one might move up close to the arena called greatness...but not yet.


Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't she already run (successfully) a bit more than a foot beyond 9F? :huh: :huh: :tongue:

[Railbird]

There is a term, used in the military buid up to the debacle of Iraq, that describes whenerver a "closed" system re-inforces a conclusion called
n. The reinforcement of set beliefs among like-minded people, leading to miscalculations and errors in judgment.

Happens all the time in systems closed to logic



Hey zilzal, I think you missed my post a little bit earlier in the thread, where I referenced a few comments that Hall of Famers and other professionals in the racing industry have made about Rachel. Would really like to know if you think they are living in a closed system as well, or if they just might know what they're talking about based on their hands-on experience with real champions. Thanks :)

ETA: Just in case you did miss it
http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=34061.msg815795#msg815795

[Ballerina]

If, and this is a very big IF, the connections should some intestinal fortitude and go out and try all comers with some weight on her shoulders, tries a foot beyond 9 furlongs, and continues this streak, then this one might move up close to the arena called greatness...but not yet.


Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't she already run (successfully) a bit more than a foot beyond 9F? :huh: :huh: :tongue:


Zilzal is full of misinformation. Not knowing the distance of the Preakness is a major, major mistake on his/her part. But, let's see what he/she does to wangle out of it. :cheesy:

[Hermes Redux]

Rachel wants to know about this Sea the Stars horse. Let's see him get to 100 pages :evil:

[PanZareta]

If Jess is serious about breeding a superhorse, he should cancel Rachel's date with Curlin and send her to Sea the Stars. He'd get a horse that could run on dirt, turf, plastic, shredded condoms, and broken glass and complete the impossible triple -- Derby/Arc/BCC -- then take the DWC the following year.

[zilzal]

There is a term, used in the military buid up to the debacle of Iraq, that describes whenerver a "closed" system re-inforces a conclusion called
n. The reinforcement of set beliefs among like-minded people, leading to miscalculations and errors in judgment.


Happens all the time in systems closed to logic



That term is alive and well here called INCESTUOUS AMPLIFICATION.

[Dance Fly]

If Jess is serious about breeding a superhorse, he should cancel Rachel's date with Curlin and send her to Sea the Stars. He'd get a horse that could run on dirt, turf, plastic, shredded condoms, and broken glass and complete the impossible triple -- Derby/Arc/BCC -- then take the DWC the following year.



Post of the day! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[terpsichorist]

If Jess is serious about breeding a superhorse, he should cancel Rachel's date with Curlin and send her to Sea the Stars. He'd get a horse that could run on dirt, turf, plastic, shredded condoms, and broken glass and complete the impossible triple -- Derby/Arc/BCC -- then take the DWC the following year.



Post of the day! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I agree great post , the only thing in the way of Rachel and SOS could be Zarkava though .

Now back to Rachel

[ShuveesGirl]

Rachel returns to Kentucky

Rachel Alexandra, the superstar filly who is through racing for the year, was scheduled to be vanned overnight Tuesday from her summer base in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., to Churchill.

The filly's connections have said they intend to ease her into a lengthy vacation before gearing her back up for a 4-year-old campaign in 2010.

[Surfside]

Rachel returns to Kentucky

Rachel Alexandra, the superstar filly who is through racing for the year, was scheduled to be vanned overnight Tuesday from her summer base in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., to Churchill.

The filly's connections have said they intend to ease her into a lengthy vacation before gearing her back up for a 4-year-old campaign in 2010.


I frankly think she should sun herself on the Riviera...

[regret15]

with perhaps a stop over in Monte Carlo--just for fun

[Ballerina]

with perhaps a stop over in Monte Carlo--just for fun


Maybe STS would show up, and they could break the bank.

[Slewbopper]

And thank you: that's a pretty good illustration of my point. You were (understandably) caught up in the excitement of that day, as I think all of us were--even those who were watching on simulcast from another track. It was an excellent crowd. The attendance that day on closing weekend was 31,171; by comparison, last year's closing day crowd was 28,578, about 10% lower. There is--as the frenetic frenzy in here indicates--enormous excitement generated by this filly among those of us who already attend the races. For the hyperbole that prompted my original response about capturing the heart of the public, etc., that just isn't borne out. Some people here remember Secretariat or Ruffian and know what that kind of popular acclaim can feel like. A few, too young for that era, can at least remember when a horse named Cigar made fairly regular appearances on sports shows. Rachel has not reached even that level of popular acclaim yet. Perhaps she will, but she has a way to go.


Bi-Carbonite...get your numbers straight. First , the Woodward is not run on closing day. Also Labor Day weekend always draws the lowest attendance for the 6 week meet because folks are doing other things. Last year Curlie drew 22,000 for the Woodward. Rachel drew 31,000. That is a 45% spike for that day. I was there for both Woodwards. Last year the overall aura was that it was just another day at the track. The excitement in the air this year was electric.

[ManOTaz]

Let's try and compare apples and apples instead of apples with giveaway closing day oranges...

The Woodward attendance for 2008...was... 22,572
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/horses/2008-08-30-curlin-saratoga_N.htm

The Woodward attendance for 2009...was...31,171

I believe that's a 40% increase...not the 10% you suggested...on a weekend that was after school had restarted in many areas since Labor Day was so late this year...is a pretty impressive surge in traffic at track -- particularly when the Travers Stakes only drew slightly more the previous weekend (34,221) ... :wink:
http://msn.foxsports.com/horseracing/story/9987768/Summer-Bird-soars-in-Travers-Stakes


MoT, I may not have been clear enough in my communication. Regret posted that this was a horse who generated excitement throughout the general public; I pointed out that that was hyperbole. Railbird contested my claim, citing the throngs at Saratoga that flocked to Rachel were so large that they had to be more than just regular racing fans. I posted attendance figures to indicate that, to the contrary, those are the kinds of numbers that show up at Saratoga on any major racing day. As your own post underlines, by pointing out that there were fewer people watching Rachel than there were in the same venue a few weeks earlier for the Travers. For anyone who recalls what it feels like when the non-racing public genuinely gets excited about a racehorse, it's easy to see that the passionate excitement that Rachel generates is hottest in enclaves like this one, and is relatively unnoticed by the world at large.

I respectfully disagree.

I think you are making inaccurate comparisons...

Travers Day annually gets the biggest crowd...at Saratoga...because of all the races running...

This is a fact...its one of the last weekends of summer, the best three year olds usually are running in the races, and the card for the rest of the day is big as well...

To ordinarily try and compare Travers Day crowds to Woodward day crowds is comparing apples and oranges since it does so much better attendance wise.

I offered the comparison to demonstrate just how extraordinary Rachel's crowd was...because it was only slightly less than the crowd on the biggest racing day at Saratoga which showed a lot...

You chose not to discuss the Woodward crowd last year vs. the Woodward crowd this year..for your comparison which would be a fairer contrast...instead you chose to compare the closing day numbers to the Woodward numbers -- when there are people going through the turnstiles just to get the giveaways...and these inflate the numbers...

There were 9,000 more people there for Rachel's race than Curlin's race...and the crowd was among the loudest I have heard at the track rivaling Belmont Stakes crowds for Smarty Jones and Big Brown...

Now, you also dismiss the reality that this year Labor Day was extremely late and school had already started in many places...when this was not the case last year for Curlin's race...which is another factor to consider...as well...


C --- When is the last time a horse got a feature story in Vogue magazine?

When is the last time you saw a horse trainer cry at a race?

What oddball questions. I have seen trainers do many things--including cry--at the races; I couldn't tell you when was the last time. I have no idea if Vogue has ever done a feature story on a racehorse--I heard that they had a photo shoot of her this year; I don't know if there was a feature story or not. I don't really read Vogue, nor do I think of it as the pulse of the people. I understand why people allude to Native Dancer on the cover of Time, or Secretariat's triple crown of Time, Newsweek and Sports Illustrated; I don't think a photo shoot in Vogue is anything comparable.

Nothing comparable?

Well, except for Larry Jones and others in response to tragic happenings at the track...I have rarely seen trainers cry tears of admiration...

After all, while they care for their horses...they are businessmen and women...which usually keep their emotions pretty close to the vest...

If you have seen so many show such emotion...then let me know when the last time you have seen them express such emotion...

Regarding teh Vogue spread, those were all male horses that you mentioned...that graced the pages of other magazines...

Rachel is a female after all -- and has to deal with the male vs. female thing...

None of those horses were featured in a fashion magazine...thus its one thing to be featured in a news magazine...or a sports magazine...but to go beyond that to a fashion magazine truly shows the breadth of attention being paid to her...by the mainstream public whether or not you are aware of it or not...



Rachel's thread is 100 pages now...thanks Rick, zilzal, and all the other prolific contributors to her legacy and fame! :kiss:

In all fairness, I think Man o Taz deserves most of the credit: about 38 pages are just that poster's quotations of previous posts.


Couldn't avoiod getting a little dig in there, eh? :grin:

[ManOTaz]

If, and this is a very big IF, the connections should some intestinal fortitude and go out and try all comers with some weight on her shoulders, tries a foot beyond 9 furlongs, and continues this streak, then this one might move up close to the arena called greatness...but not yet.


Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't she already run (successfully) a bit more than a foot beyond 9F? :huh: :huh: :tongue:


Zilzal is full of misinformation. Not knowing the distance of the Preakness is a major, major mistake on his/her part. But, let's see what he/she does to wangle out of it. :cheesy:


The same thing zilzal does with me...ignore it...

zilzal only responds to person zilzal thinks he can win an argument against... :laugh:

Railbird and I have offered multiple quotes from racing industry trainers and columnists regarding Rachel and he has been silent in response to them... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

If Jess is serious about breeding a superhorse, he should cancel Rachel's date with Curlin and send her to Sea the Stars. He'd get a horse that could run on dirt, turf, plastic, shredded condoms, and broken glass and complete the impossible triple -- Derby/Arc/BCC -- then take the DWC the following year.


Well, Rachel could do that too actually...but Jess wants to protect Curlin's reputation...so nix any racing on synthetic... :laugh: