Zenyatta News

[serenassong]

I enjoyed it as well. I actually saw it twice - the WCBS was delayed due to football, but the CT CBS started on time. Was worth seeing the second time. My husband actually sat down with me the first time and was totally into it. All he kept saying was "Holy crap, what a freaking monster!":becky:

[Whos the Cowboy]

Zenyatta saved the show-the other 2 segments were extremely depressing

[SoS]

It was an excellent piece and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

The one thing they missed that I thought needed explaining were the ever-present cottonballs in her ears. I'm sure more than a few wondered what that white was in her ears.

That and the blood-like sauce on her bandages. Surprised we haven't heard from PETA on that one yet, let alone that apparent alcohol abuse of hers.:bowl:

[Happy Endings]

I can totally sympathize with that, except I get a lot of sweat, anxiety, swearing, and yelling at the pets to get out of my way (as I run to the next room for something that MIGHT be the perfect fix). BTW, I read your post, then noticed your username. Had a chuckle over it.

Always happy to provide some comic relief! ;-)

I did manage to capture the show on tape and then I dubbed just the segment on Z to dvd. It is now in my dvd archives.

And I agree with SOS, they should have talked about her cottonballs...that is such an appealing part of the whole story.

[Man o' Taz]

This work clearly showed her vulnerability. All you have to do to beat her is jump in at the half mile pole with a 10 length lead, then outsprint her to the wire. :)

These people worrying about not getting by her work mate should just look at the splits. If she was not getting by with a 12.3 final furlong I might worry. Here, both horses were really moving.

Piece of cake. :becky:


OMG I'm ready to throttle the HRTV commentators this morning.

They basically trashed the work because she caught her workmate after the wire (which, from everything else I have read, WAS INTENTIONAL), basically saying, "Well, if she can't catch her workmate, how can she catch those males in the Classic?"

Oh, and apparently 1:11 and change is "slow".

One lady wondered allowed if they would even SHIP her after that work and predicted they would "not be happy" with that work back at the barn.

After I read quotes everywhere else that they thought it was "perfect".

HRTV hasn't shown the work itself yet.

Where's the smiley that is banging it's head against the wall?

Correct.

Her last two works they have wanted her to not pass the second horse in front because they say she gets distracted/unfocused once she passes horses and as a result they want to keep her working so they keep a horse in front of her...much ado about nothing by some folks here... :rolleyes:


Damn! I guess I was the only one who wasn't worried at all for a second of last year's BC Classic.

I was watching it at the track and the people around me were all freaking out at the start while Trevor was hamming up her traditional start in last style with his "Zenyatta is DEAD last!" quote ...

I told the people around me to relax and just watch and she'll blow right past them all ... When she did ... I was looking pretty sharp! ;-)

I honestly felt extremely confident throughout that entire race.

Before it started Gio worried me a little ... But once they left the gate, my confidence in Zenny was unwavered. Honestly.

Seemed to me she had it in hand the entire way.

:becky:

I never had a doubt about her in the Classic last year either and have not since.

Mike Smith put in his best ride and she won with relative ease...

[Spahny]

She posed like a statue for the closing of the segment. She must have been looking for the next visitor to come pet her, feed her, and tell her how special she is.

That long, elegant neck of hers was really highlighted in that shot.

Mike still insists she has another gear. He seemed to intimate that he will ask her for it. He's very emotional about her, isn't he? I hope he's in the moment once he gets tied on.

[Blue Jeans]

It was an excellent piece and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

The one thing they missed that I thought needed explaining were the ever-present cottonballs in her ears. I'm sure more than a few wondered what that white was in her ears.

I kept thinking surely someone is going to ask about her 'ear plugs' .... and the 'red stuff' on her front leg wraps! Nope! Not a word.

My sister called after the show and wanted to know about 'the red stuff' on her leg wraps; I had already told her about Z's ear plugs. She and others loved the 60 Minutes feature and are looking forward to Saturday's big race on TV.

Loved Andy Rooney's tribute to Secretariat ... and the movie. Cheers to 60 Minutes!

[Man o' Taz]

First off, I want to point out that what we're talking about is something that is entirely subjective and that I respect that there are going to be endless opinions about this, all based on differently weighed facts and criteria. So, I'm not *particularly* interested in arguing with anyone over the question of whether Zenyatta is one of the best, or THE best, horses ever. People can think what they want.

In any case, about the MS quote, "Better" in what way, is what I would want to know. Like I said earlier, I don't see the point of trying to figure out who was better based on who I think would win a match race, esp horses of different eras and different styles. I'm not Mike Smith, so I don't know what criteria exactly he is using to say she would be "better" than Secretariat if she wins the BCC, though the implication is that he thinks her RECORD would be better, or perhaps her consistency.

We should also think seriously about whether or not that clip was EDITED to make it look like Mike Smith was flat out saying she was "definitely" better than Secretariat.

Fair enough, I was only making the point based upon the clip there...that he did indicate that he thought she was BETTER than Secretariat. Others had made a different observation and my point was based upon the clip...there was no question that he thought that she was BETTER than Secretariat based upon her being undefeated...perfect..."you can't argue with perfection".


I disagree that she only ran 3 big races in her career. In her 4 yr old year she ran against the best mares there were out there. She ducked no one in the distaff division. Take a moment to remind yourself who she beat that year.

I agree that the Apple Blossom was an important race for her when she beat Ginger Punch. I actually thought that race was more important than the Distaff that year since while the competition might have been better, the race was on synthetic which was not the surface of choice for the best horses in that race.


I agree that at 5 and 6 her competition, save for the BC, was much less tough on paper--with a few exceptions (Life is Sweet, St Trinians, maybe Switch). At that point, she had scared away the tougher competition, added to the fact that she ran mostly in CA where many east coast horses refuse to ship. I am not going to get into an argument over whether or not she should have shipped more. They had their reasons and I take the stance that they were probably good ones, but I'm not in position to judge.

Well, I supported their shipping decisions this year. I know they wanted to ship her more, but if you are going to take her competitors to task for not shipping West you have to be similarly fair-minded and hold her to the same standard that you hold them to as far as her only shipping East once.

Also, Life Is Sweet and St. Trinians were Grade I winning mares. Impressive horses. But they were not world beaters.


I know you're implying that if she had run in tougher races at 5 and 6, she wouldn't have been undefeated. We'll never know--I don't agree, but it's a gut feeling. My only evidence is that she's sure as hell had plenty of excuses not to win over the years, but she never uses them. That, and she generally wins looking like she's not having to work that hard.

Did I imply that?

You may have inferred it, but I did not imply that. I stated that I believe that she could win two races in a year against older males. The point was that there was a reason that these other horses were defeated...they were facing the best of the best...racing in open company all year long instead of just one race a year.


It could be that if she had raced in tougher races, she might not have raced AS LONG. i.e. she may have worn out sooner and retired earlier.

True. But is this a defense of her "greatness" -- her not racing in that many tough races?


As to your question about whether I would consider Zenyatta to be one of the best ever for having only been tested 3 times, again, I disagree that she has only been "tested" 3 times, and again, I don't know if we mean the same thing by "best ever". I am thinking of the whole package--her race record, her competition, her consistency, her dominance, her running style, her personality, her physicality/conformation, etc. When I take that all into account, she is one of the "best ever" for me, though I refuse to "rank" horses like 1, 2, 3, etc...

I am talking the full package as well, and that is why the final entry even if she wins the BC Classic is a question mark because we do not know. We do not know a simple question whether or not she could beat older males more than once in a year. I believe she could as I have said. But we cannot know unless it has been done. Her connections, while they have given us a magical two years with the horse trained her up to the Breeders Cup Championships every year and did not believe in otherwise testing her.

Lady Secret bested older males more than once in a single year, so did Busher, so did many of the other great mare and horses.



The one thing I'm willing to say is that in watching her race, she gives me THE SAME FEELING as watching Secretariat. And that is entirely subjective and I don't think or expect anyone should agree with me.

Well, I never saw Secretariat race in person, though I have responded emotionally in subsequent airings of his races. I count myself fortunate that I WILL get to see Zenyatta race in person, and I have little doubt that I will have tears in my eyes as she comes home no matter the outcome.

I was only offering a little perspective before the hyperbole gets us carried away...

The only way I see that she could be BETTER than Secretariat is if she bested his winning time...

If she did that, she would have earned a favorable comparison...and I do not doubt that she can do it. She came close to the BC Classic record last year...with her record breaking BSF in that race. With even more pace up front, she could deliver a remarkable performance Saturday.

[EquineAnne]

I enjoyed it as well. I actually saw it twice - the WCBS was delayed due to football, but the CT CBS started on time. Was worth seeing the second time. My husband actually sat down with me the first time and was totally into it. All he kept saying was "Holy crap, what a freaking monster!":becky:

My husband was in awe as well. The size of her makes you go whoa!

[EquineAnne]

Mike still insists she has another gear. He seemed to intimate that he will ask her for it. He's very emotional about her, isn't he? I hope he's in the moment once he gets tied on.

I thought the same thing as he said, I think we'll see something special. I really hope she blows them away, once and for all. I know she can and I want to see it.

[Native Diver]

She posed like a statue for the closing of the segment. She must have been looking for the next visitor to come pet her, feed her, and tell her how special she is.

That long, elegant neck of hers was really highlighted in that shot.

Mike still insists she has another gear. He seemed to intimate that he will ask her for it. He's very emotional about her, isn't he? I hope he's in the moment once he gets tied on.

She has equine posing down to an art form, doesn't she? That closing shot looked just like a producer told her, "Now Z, stand stockstill, head high, looking to your right, right, that's it, ears way up, perfect! Yes, now don't move a hair until end of shot."

What a pro she is!

[second_glance]

The 60 Minutes segment is now online:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7009219n

[12 minutes and change]

[islandgirl45]

Fair enough, I was only making the point based upon the clip there...that he did indicate that he thought she was BETTER than Secretariat. Others had made a different observation and my point was based upon the clip...there was no question that he thought that she was BETTER than Secretariat based upon her being undefeated...perfect..."you can't argue with perfection".

I was only offering a little perspective before the hyperbole gets us carried away...


I watched Secretariat win the Triple Crown (on TV) as a teenager, and will never forget the stunning dominance of his Belmont.

But in the spirit of a little perspective, as you said, perhaps we can cut some slack to Mike Smith, who looks like he might cry when he talks about the legacy of a 6-year-old mare he loves like a member of his family.:)

[Secretariat Forever]

Zenyatta has cat fans!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF7DDcD6TzE

And a little into this video you'll see shots of Zenyatta stealing John's hat! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6efTmZGCQ

[The Tin Man]

And a little into this video you'll see shots of Zenyatta stealing John's hat! lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6efTmZGCQ

Great video!! I wish the Moss' would have been there when I was, but I came to her stable AFTER her work ... so I guess that's why.

[Horse's Rear]

I am apparently coming in late to this, since I can't even find the original post, but I saw this quote (quite possibly out of context):


In any case, about the MS quote, "Better" in what way, is what I would want to know. Like I said earlier, I don't see the point of trying to figure out who was better based on who I think would win a match race, esp horses of different eras and different styles. I'm not Mike Smith, so I don't know what criteria exactly he is using to say she would be "better" than Secretariat if she wins the BCC, though the implication is that he thinks her RECORD would be better, or perhaps her consistency.

We should also think seriously about whether or not that clip was EDITED to make it look like Mike Smith was flat out saying she was "definitely" better than Secretariat.
Just reading this quote, what I am reminded of right away were the debates at the time over who was "better," Secretariat or Forego. Those debates tended to go two ways, with Secretariat generally being given an edge because most people value more the factors where he proved superior to the factors where Forego proved superior. Clearly, Secretariat won their only meeting, though Forego proponents were quick to point out that that was also a matchup between an early developer at his peak and a late-developer who was still a good ways away from what he would become. I think most people who value a horse based on "how good was his greatest performance" would say that--at his best--Secretariat was better than Forego. Forego certainly won the longevity of accomplishment contest, and demonstrated an ability to carry and concede weight that Laurin kept off Secretariat's agenda.

I think Zenyatta is more reminiscent of Forego than of Secretariat, and probably is more valued by those who value that kind of performance relatively more than those who most highly value early-developers. But all that is just comparing relative valuations among a commonly conceded recognition of greatness.

[Horse's Rear]

I don't think anyone in racing cares if she was an early or late developer. We appreciate older horses who didn't participate in the TC, and the TC is even less of a concern for a filly who we don't expect to race in that series. I think most just wanted her A) on dirt, and B) against better competition.
I'm not sure why you are taking this to a position of someone not appreciating Zenyatta--I don't see how those opinions remain worth considering. But I am surprised to see you say that we appreciate older horses who didn't participate in the TC. Obviously, of course, "we" do--but just obviously, the "we" who value those horses as much as those who value 3yo Classic winners is much smaller than the "we" who don't. The evidence for that is everywhere, and while it includes attitudes toward Zenyatta, it is not in any way restricted to her; it's just a commonplace about what races matter most to racing fans.

[Kurenai]

The 60 minutes episode with zenyatta is now on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_JheDOcgQI

[second_glance]

And another 60 Minutes Extra -- a couple of minutes with John S.

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7009264n

[GinTalking]

Interesting that they had her wearing the 2010 Breeder's Cup Ladies' Classic Winner blanket after she took her bath. I guess they just proclaimed her that in advance, since she's skipping it. ;-)

Guess she just gets an honorary one ... I'm cool with that.

Last year she wore her 2008 Ladies Classic blanket. How could she possibly have one for 2010? Not even the BC is that stupid ... to give someone a blanket for a race they didn't win. Makes no sense. ??

[PJMIII]

I have to say that I've never enjoyed a 60 segment as much I did the one with Zenyatta last night. I thought it was so well done.

[janpal]

Agree, liked the segment very much! Really enjoyed seeing the camera shots taken from on her back by Mike Smith. This kind of coverage can only be good for racing! So hope we see more of this in the future.

[Giant Oak]

Wasn't it still properly named the Distaff in 08? I thought the ridiculous name change happened last year?

Hi SOS.

Actually, 2008 was the first year it was run as the Ladies' Classic.

[jbstevens8]

Her blanket reads "2010 Breeder Cup Challenge Winner"....Are some races "win and you are in" ?

[janpal]

To HR, ANYONE will greatly appreciate the accomplishments of an undefeated horse like Zen. Just the fact that she is on 60 Min. proves that a horse doesn't have to be in the TC to become a household name.;) As far as my personal feelings towards her achievements, I am one of those (as V. has pointed out) that will be reserving final judgment based on her performance against stiff competition on the Churchill dirt. I will be rooting for her!:)

[GinTalking]

Wasn't it still properly named the Distaff in 08? I thought the ridiculous name change happened last year?

I'm guessing no because she wore that blanket last year at Santa Anita and I was just told she wore it at Oaklawn last Spring too.

[GinTalking]

Her blanket reads "2010 Breeder Cup Challenge Winner"....Are some races "win and you are in" ?

Ah, thank you. I knew there was more to the story. :-)

[The Tin Man]

.

[The Tin Man]

Her blanket reads "2010 Breeder Cup Challenge Winner"....Are some races "win and you are in" ?

Yep ... Upon closer observation ... It says "2010 Breeder's Cup Callenge ... Win and you're in ... Winner" ... "Breeder's Cup Ladies' Classic" ...

Yet another example of why I wish we had a delete feature ... :(

[Whos the Cowboy]

Her blanket reads "2010 Breeder Cup Challenge Winner"....Are some races "win and you are in" ?

The Lady's Secret was a Win and You're In race for the Distaff, but not the Classic

[firehorse]

affected by the Fox NFL Overrun, but 10 million ain't shabby

Broadcast primetime ratings for Sunday, October 31, 2010:

Time Net Show 18-49 Rating/Share Viewers (Millions)
7:00 FOX NFL Overrun 8.1/26 23.13
NBC Football Night In America 2.0/6 5.60
CBS 60 Minutes 1.6/5 10.74
ABC America’s Funniest Home Videos 1.4/4 5.83

[Man o' Taz]

I watched Secretariat win the Triple Crown (on TV) as a teenager, and will never forget the stunning dominance of his Belmont.

But in the spirit of a little perspective, as you said, perhaps we can cut some slack to Mike Smith, who looks like he might cry when he talks about the legacy of a 6-year-old mare he loves like a member of his family.:)

I bet if I rode her and 4,000 other horses, I'd probably think she were the best too, particularly if I had not ridden or seen in person the other horses...

I am crossing my fingers and hoping Mike has another incredible ride like he did last year.

He made the difference going inside! ;)

[islandgirl45]

I don't know if this belongs in the Z thread or the Lucky thread, but it's too cute not to post somewhere.:smile: It's a brief look at all the Classic contenders.

"Lookin At Lucky – Lookin at Lucky walked the shedrow at Hollywood Park Monday morning after working 5f in 59 3/5 Sunday.
“I asked Bodie (his son), ‘Who is the fastest in the world?’ and he said, ‘Zenyatta,’ so I guess it’s all uphill,” said trainer Bob Baffert. “Seriously, he’s doing great. We just need some racing luck.....”

http://lanegold.blogspot.com/2010/11/zenyatta-defending-breeders-cup-classic.html

[Man o' Taz]

I don't know if this belongs in the Z thread or the Lucky thread, but it's too cute not to post somewhere.:smile: It's a brief look at all the Classic contenders.

"Lookin At Lucky – Lookin at Lucky walked the shedrow at Hollywood Park Monday morning after working 5f in 59 3/5 Sunday.
“I asked Bodie (his son), ‘Who is the fastest in the world?’ and he said, ‘Zenyatta,’ so I guess it’s all uphill,” said trainer Bob Baffert. “Seriously, he’s doing great. We just need some racing luck.....”

http://lanegold.blogspot.com/2010/11/zenyatta-defending-breeders-cup-classic.html

:lol:

[islandgirl45]

Some interesting factoids in a question/answer piece about Z in today's Courier-Journal. I've always wondered about her shoe size relative to other horses.:rolleyes:

Questions, answers about Zenyatta
BY ERIC CRAWFORD AND JENNIE REES • THE COURIER-JOURNAL • NOV. 1, 2010

Did Zenyatta run in the Kentucky Oaks or Kentucky Derby?
No. Because of her large size, her connections gave her time to mature and did not put her in a race until late November of her 3-year-old season. Restricted to 3-year-olds, the Derby is held the first Saturday in May; the Oaks is the preceding day.

How big is she?
She is 17.2 hands tall and weighs 1,217 pounds. The average thoroughbred is between 15.2 and 16 hands, weighing about 1,000 pounds; the average mare might be slightly smaller and a little lighter. She wears a size 7 shoe; the average horse wears a 5 or 6. She's definitely one of the largest thoroughbred mares you'll see.

Did she ever run at Churchill Downs?
No. She was entered to begin her 2009 season in the Louisville Distaff on the Kentucky Oaks undercard but was scratched because trainer John Shirreffs thought the track, which had been packed down because of rain, was too hard for her first race of the year.

How does she rank among horse racing greats?
It's impossible to compare horses of different generations and eras. But she can claim the greatest record for an unbeaten American horse of either sex. If she beats these top male horses on true dirt in the Breeders' Cup Classic, it will strengthen her case among both sexes, but she's already on the short list of all-time great female horses.

Has her streak been against good competition?
She has won 13 times in Grade I stakes, the highest level of stakes racing in North America. But all but one of those races was against other fillies and mares, so she has not faced the highest level of competition race-in, race-out.
In her one race against the males, however, she beat nine Grade I stakes winners, including Gio Ponti, the 2009 Older Horse and Turf champion, and Summer Bird, the 2009 champion 3-year-old. However, critics would say that she was running against very good horses who were not on their preferred surface — turf — and dirt horses running over a synthetic track.

Why did she run so many races in California?
Her owners, Jerry and Ann Moss, live in California and her trainer, Shirreffs, is based there. He credits her longevity, at least in small part, to not being shipped across the country often.

Did she ever beat Rachel Alexandra?
The two never raced against each other. Oaklawn Park offered a $5 million purse if Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra, the 2009 Horse of the Year, met in the Apple Blossom in April. Rachel Alexandra's connections pulled her out after she finished second to Zardana, Zenyatta's stablemate, in a race in New Orleans in March. Rachel Alexandra recently was retired from racing.

What is her running style?
Zenyatta is a closer. She generally is slow out of the starting gate because of her size. She usually is at the back of the field early in races and makes a huge run around the final turn, often circling the field from the outside.

What's her favorite treat?
Shirreffs tends to go the natural route, allowing her carrots and apples. She will fish in pockets and even purses to find munchies if not caught beforehand.

What's she like to be around?
She is sweet when she is resting or grazing. She gets aggressive only when she's on the track.

What's next for her after the Classic?
The Mosses have already announced she will return to California. They have not committed to anything else, saying they will make those decisions after the Classic.

[Dave in TJMex]

"This . . . is . . . un - bee - lee - vable, a performance we'll never forget." :)

Hey, where the heck are Secretariat and Spectacular Bid?????

Nonetheless, its pretty cool. I like the fact they got the silks right.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2010/november/01/zenyatta-beats-greats-in-computer-simulation.aspx

[islandgirl45]

"This . . . is . . . un - bee - lee - vable, a performance we'll never forget." :)

Hey, where the heck are Secretariat and Spectacular Bid?????

Nonetheless, its pretty cool. I like the fact they got the silks right.

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2010/november/01/zenyatta-beats-greats-in-computer-simulation.aspx

Really surprised they didn't include Secretariat, especially when the movie is still in theaters.

[Slewbopper]

"This . . . is . . . un - bee - lee - vable, a performance we'll never forget." :)

Hey, where the heck are Secretariat and Spectacular Bid?????



They are dead horses along with the other top 17 on the Bloodhorse list.

60 Minutes screwed up one thing big time. They should have mentioned that Jerry was the M in A & M Records (Herb Alpert being the A). They should have mentioned the Police being their top act and that Giacomo, a Derby winner, was named after Sting's son and Zenyatta after the Police's album Zenyatta Mondatta. If only 60 Minutes had given the 50 million people that watch the show this information........just sayin'

[Secretariat Forever]

They are dead horses along with the other top 17 on the Bloodhorse list.

60 Minutes screwed up one thing big time. They should have mentioned that Jerry was the M in A & M Records (Herb Alpert being the A). They should have mentioned the Police being their top act and that Giacomo, a Derby winner, was named after Sting's son and Zenyatta after the Police's album Zenyatta Mondatta. If only 60 Minutes had given the 50 million people that watch the show this information........

I was surprised about that too. And surprised they didn't interview..uh Steve Willard of course, ya know the guy who is on her more than even Mike is!

[Slewbopper]

Here is some great coverage of the best horse Mike Smith ever rode. Notice young Mike with hair.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTmeYaAFVAs

[islandgirl45]

I was surprised about that too. And surprised they didn't interview..uh Steve Willard of course, ya know the guy who is on her more than even Mike is!

They may well have, but each piece has to be edited down to a tight, cohesive segment. I'm sure they shot way more footage than was broadcast. And after all, Mike is the one who'll be riding her on Saturday, and the one who has more than 4,000 wins to his credit.

[Slewbopper]

They may well have, but each piece has to be edited down to a tight, cohesive segment. I'm sure they shot way more footage than was broadcast. And after all, Mike is the one who'll be riding her on Saturday, and the one who has more than 4,000 wins to his credit.

Give me a break. It would have taken 30 seconds to tell the world how she was named rather than Mikey saying she might be the greatest of all time when she isn't even the best horse he ever rode

[islandgirl45]

Mike Smith's ongoing blog this week on ESPN....

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5753212/hectic

[The Tin Man]

Give me a break. It would have taken 30 seconds to tell the world how she was named rather than Mikey saying she might be the greatest of all time when she isn't even the best horse he ever rode

You're funny Bopper and stubborn as hell ... You've now heard Mikey tell you multiple times that she's the best horse that he's ever ridden ... Yet you still try to tell Mikey that she's not. Who should know better ... you who have never touched or been on either of them or Mikey who has ridden them both for the majority of their careers?

And if you don't think he's sincere and he's just embellishing for the film crews ... Just try looking at the passion and emotion in his eyes as he says it next time. That's not faked ... He's sincere.

[EquineAnne]

Give me a break. It would have taken 30 seconds to tell the world how she was named rather than Mikey saying she might be the greatest of all time when she isn't even the best horse he ever rode

Give me a break. It's their segment. It's about Zenyatta not the M in A & M records. Quit your incessant bitching and get over the Bull.

[EquineAnne]

You're funny Bopper and stubborn as hell ... You've now heard Mikey tell you multiple times that she's the best horse that he's ever ridden ... Yet you still try to tell Mikey that she's not. Who should know better ... you who have never touched or been on either of them or Mikey who has ridden them both for the majority of their careers?

I don't think he's funny anymore. He's stubborn like an old lady. :sad:

[Slewbopper]

Give me a break. It's their segment. It's about Zenyatta not the M in A & M records. Quit your incessant bitching and get over the Bull.

Blah blah blah. Mikey is caught up in the moment. He sees nothing objectively. You probably think Vindication was a better horse than Bull.

[The Tin Man]

Blah blah blah. Mikey is caught up in the moment. He sees nothing objectively. You probably think Vindication was a better horse than Bull.

If that's true ... There's a pretty good chance he was caught up in the moment(not to mention much less experienced) when he was drooling all over the Bull like you are too Bopper. Dontcha think? ;-)

While I value your horse racing knowledge immensely my friend ... I value Mikey's just a tiny bit more. ;-)

[BARNFOUR]

You're funny Bopper and stubborn as hell ... You've now heard Mikey tell you multiple times that she's the best horse that he's ever ridden ... Yet you still try to tell Mikey that she's not. Who should know better ... you who have never touched or been on either of them or Mikey who has ridden them both for the majority of their careers?



Tinny,EVERY jockey says the best champion horse they have ever ridden is the one they are presently riding.Show me one instance otherwise....

[The Tin Man]

Tinny,EVERY jockey says the best champion horse they have ever ridden is the one they are presently riding.Show me one instance otherwise....

Well ... He sure seems to get a bit emotional about it ... And claiming no male is good enough for her ... And did he ever say he thought the Bull might be the best horse ever? Seems he's pouring it on a bit more than he did the champion Bull ... eh BF?

[Slewbopper]

Tin Man. I think Zen is the most magnificant mare I have ever seen. Bottom line...She has beaten one very good dirt male in her 19 races.....Summer Bird when running on a surface he probably did not care for.....

I will be the first in line to praise her if she wins on Saturday. The odds ARE in her favor. But the race still has to be run. The problem is that unlike the Bull in the '94 Woodwqrd, she will not be facing a Derby winner (Go For Gin), a Belmont winner (Colonial Afair), a two time Pac Classic winner (Tinners Way), a horse that won the Pac Classic, Woodward, Goodwood, and was 5 lengths clear of every horse but Arazi in the '91 Juvy (Bertrando), a two time Suburban winner (when it was G1 and 1 1/4) and Pim Special winner (Devil His Due). When she can beat a field like that by 5 lengths, then we can talk about her being as good as the Bull.

[Horse's Rear]

I will be the first in line to praise her if she wins on Saturday. The odds ARE in her favor. But the race still has to be run. The problem is that unlike the Bull in the '94 Woodwqrd, she will not be facing a Derby winner (Go For Gin), a Belmont winner (Colonial Afair), a two time Pac Classic winner (Tinners Way), a horse that won the Pac Classic, Woodward, Goodwood, and was 5 lengths clear of every horse but Arazi in the '91 Juvy (Bertrando), a two time Suburban winner (when it was G1 and 1 1/4) and Pim Special winner (Devil His Due). When she can beat a field like that by 5 lengths, then we can talk about her being as good as the Bull.

First of all, there is absolutely NO WAY you will make it to the front of the line. You are so far back now that you would need Zenyatta pulling your lame ... to even get in sight of the front of the line.

But what are you talking about. IF she wins her next start--and that seems a big "if"--she will, in fact, do so by beating a Preakness winner (Lookin at Lucky) in a year when the Derby winner (Super Saver) and Belmont winner (Drosselmeyer) both retired early due to injury; she will be beating a two-time Pac Classic winner (Richard's Kid); your next choice is an odd one ("Pac Classic, Woodward, Goodwood, and was 5 lengths clear of every horse but Arazi in the '91 Juvy") but Lookin at Lucky was the runner-up in last year's Juvenile, so she would be beating him, Richard's Kid has won the last two Pac Classics and she would be beating him, Quality Road won the Woodward and she would be beating him, and Richard's Kid also won the Goodwood, and she would be beating him; the Suburban winner (Haynesfield) also won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, and she would be beating him as well; she would also be beating the winner of the Stephen Foster and Whitney Stakes (Blame); there was no Pimlico Special this year, so I guess that's what's wrong with this field.

[The Tin Man]

Tin Man. I think Zen is the most magnificant mare I have ever seen. Bottom line...She has beaten one very good dirt male in her 19 races.....Summer Bird when running on a surface he probably did not care for.....



Wow! A really low opinion of Einstein, Gio Ponti and Colonel John I guess then Bopper ...

And before you pull out the old "They weren't synth horses" ... Check out Colonel John and Einstein's performances on the synth ... While Colonel John may have been better on dirt ... He was pretty damn good on synth also ...

Colonel John, Gio and Einstein ran their best Beyers of the year on synth and Einstein won the Santa Anita Handicap on synth and lost the Pacific Classic by a head in his 2 tries ... He loved the synth obviously.

Richard's Kid is a pretty damn good synth horse too ... And Twice Over is just a damn good horse period.

I'll give you that Rip either had issues or just didn't like the synth at all.

Two things also Bopper ... I honestly feel this field is weaker than last year's. I also feel the long stretch run will benefit her greatly. I expect she will win easier than last year even. At that point, IF she does, I guess you'll be first in line to praise her as you've stated.

As far as the winning by 5 lengths ... I guess somehow you still don't understand she's at the mercy of the pace being as she's a deep closer. I feel quite confident that had they wanted to run her differently ... They could have gotten you more than a sufficient amount of 5 length wins to sate your hunger Bopper. But alas ... She plays to the pace ... So she's not likely to be set up for blowout wins. Add to that that she knows where the wire is too ... And she's just timing herself to hit the wire first. Sometimes I think she just likes pulling it close to tease the other horses and jockeys. ;-)

[MonmouthGuy]

He clearly stated she only beat one good dirt horse. Your response is long but unresponsive.

[Uh-oh Bango]

First of all, there is absolutely NO WAY you will make it to the front of the line. You are so far back now that you would need Zenyatta pulling your lame ... to even get in sight of the front of the line.

But what are you talking about. IF she wins her next start--and that seems a big "if"--she will, in fact, do so by beating a Preakness winner (Lookin at Lucky) in a year when the Derby winner (Super Saver) and Belmont winner (Drosselmeyer) both retired early due to injury; she will be beating a two-time Pac Classic winner (Richard's Kid); your next choice is an odd one ("Pac Classic, Woodward, Goodwood, and was 5 lengths clear of every horse but Arazi in the '91 Juvy") but Lookin at Lucky was the runner-up in last year's Juvenile, so she would be beating him, Richard's Kid has won the last two Pac Classics and she would be beating him, Quality Road won the Woodward and she would be beating him, and Richard's Kid also won the Goodwood, and she would be beating him; the Suburban winner (Haynesfield) also won the Jockey Club Gold Cup, and she would be beating him as well; she would also be beating the winner of the Stephen Foster and Whitney Stakes (Blame); there was no Pimlico Special this year, so I guess that's what's wrong with this field.
Thank you.

[The Tin Man]

He clearly stated she only beat one good dirt horse. Your response is long but unresponsive.

And yours is exceedingly predictable and boring as usual MG ... At least you're consistent. Nice to hear from you again my friend ... I've missed you! ;-)

[Curlin]

He clearly stated she only beat one good dirt horse. Your response is long but unresponsive.
Zenyatta beat a Belmont winner, and a Travers winner. That would qualify both horses IMO as "good." Awesome Gem at that point had won a G2 on dirt (Hawthorne Gold Cup), he's now a G1 winner (Hollywood Gold Cup); Regal Ransom had won the UAE Derby and the Super Derby (both G2). I'd say both of them were ok dirt horses too.

An interesting stat is that 6 of the members of that Classic field (besides Z) have returned this year to win G1s - Twice Over, Girolamo, Gio Ponti, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and Awesome Gem. This would make that 2009 field, in hindsight, pretty darn "good."

[The Tin Man]

Zenyatta beat a Belmont winner, and a Travers winner. That would qualify both horses IMO as "good." Awesome Gem at that point had won a G2 on dirt (Hawthorne Gold Cup), he's now a G1 winner (Hollywood Gold Cup); Regal Ransom had won the UAE Derby and the Super Derby (both G2). I'd say both of them were ok dirt horses too.

An interesting stat is that 6 of the members of that Classic field (besides Z) have returned this year to win G1s - Twice Over, Girolamo, Gio Ponti, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and Awesome Gem. This would make that 2009 field, in hindsight, pretty darn "good."

And 3 retired ... (Einstein, Colonel John and Summer Bird) ... That covers 9 of the 11 she faced ...

So only 2 of the horses she faced out of the 8 that are still running haven't won Grade 1's this year ... Sounds like a pretty damn good field to me.

Now for the "but she beat them on synthetics" retort ... ;-)

[Curlin]

And 3 retired ... (Einstein, Colonel John and Summer Bird) ... That covers 9 of the 11 she faced ...

So only 2 of the horses she faced out of the 8 that are still running haven't won Grade 1's this year ... Sounds like a pretty damn good field to me.

Now for the "but she beat them on synthetics" retort ... ;-)

Of the 2 remaining, one never made it in the gate, and the other, well, D Wayne worked him outta the gate the other day, poor guy.

[Happy Endings]

Well, if she wins the BCC this year she will defeat the winners of these G1 races. There may be more, but I stopped here. Doesn't seem too shabby to me. I purposely left out Paddy's G1 on turf because it wasn't on the magic surface. Good god, what does this mare have to do?

Stephen Foster
Whitney
Japan Cup Dirt + 2 other Jpn-G1 races
Jockey Club Gold Cup
Preakness
Haskell
Florida Derby
Donn
Metropolitan
Woodward

And then there's that record for 1 1/4 miles that has stood since 1973. It may take getting close to that to win this race...I think she can do it. If she does, what then?

[Horsebagger]

An interesting stat is that 6 of the members of that Classic field (besides Z) have returned this year to win G1s - Twice Over, Girolamo, Gio Ponti, Richard's Kid, Rip Van Winkle and Awesome Gem. This would make that 2009 field, in hindsight, pretty darn "good."

If, as Tinny continues to tell us, this year's field isn't as good as last year's, why aren't any of these that are still in training back for a second shot at the big money?

[The Tin Man]

Good god, what does this mare have to do?



Stop our progression to a Fascist government, erase the National Debt and bring jobs back to this country. And I still think detractors would detract. ;-)

[Uh-oh Bango]

Stop our progression to a Fascist government, erase the National Debt and bring jobs back to this country. And I still think detractors would detract. ;-)

:)

[The Tin Man]

If, as Tinny continues to tell us, this year's field isn't as good as last year's, why aren't any of these that are still in training back for a second shot at the big money?

OK guys ... Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not positive ... Just going from memory ... Don't feel like researching it ...

But aren't Richard's Kid and Twice Over going to The Dubai World Cup ... And Girolamo, Rip Van Winkle, Gio Ponti, Mine That Bird and Awesome Gem are all going to be in Breeder's Cup races ...

So 7 of the 8 she faced last year that are still running will be in either Breeder's Cup races or The Dubai World Cup ... And 6 of those 7 have won Grade 1 races this year ...

All done AFTER she beat them in The Classic ... So the "They were on their downside" defense doesn't work this time kids. ;-)

Sounds like it was a pretty good cast to me and MUCH more experienced at the Classic distance too!

Hmmmmm .... Sounds pretty good ... I wonder what THIS year's cast will be doing next year at this time?

[islandgirl45]

Stop our progression to a Fascist government, erase the National Debt and bring jobs back to this country. And I still think detractors would detract. ;-)

I'd vote for that!:nod:

[The Tin Man]

I'd vote for that!

Heh Heh Heh ... You and I both IG!! :becky:

[Allspice]

OK guys ... Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not positive ... Just going from memory ... Don't feel like researching it ...

But aren't Richard's Kid and Twice Over going to The Dubai World Cup ... And Girolamo, Rip Van Winkle, Gio Ponti, Mine That Bird and Awesome Gem are all going to be in Breeder's Cup races ...

So 7 of the 8 she faced last year that are still running will be in either Breeder's Cup races or The Dubai World Cup ... And 6 of those 7 have won Grade 1 races this year ...

Sounds like it was a pretty good cast to me and MUCH more experienced at the Classic distance too!

Hmmmmm .... Sounds pretty good ... I wonder what THIS year's cast will be doing next year at this time?

Girolamo-Sprint

Rip Van Winkle-retired earlier this month. But he was going to run in the Breeder's Cup (Mile or Classic).

Gio Ponti- Classic/Mile

Mind that Bird-Dirt Mile

Awesome Gem-Dirt Mile/Marathon

[The Tin Man]

Rip Van Winkle was retired earlier this month. But he was going to run in the Breeder's Cup (Mile or Classic).

That's right AS! ... I forgot ... But he did pocket a couple more G1s AFTER getting smoked by Zenny ... And WAS supposed to be Breeder's Cup bound again. ;-)

[Allspice]

^ Yep. Poor Rip Van Winkle. He was a nice horse, just injury prone.

Edit: BTW Tinny, check the edit of my previous post if you didn't see it already. :)

[Curlin]

Girolamo-Sprint

Rip Van Winkle-retired earlier this month. But he was going to run in the Breeder's Cup (Mile or Classic).

Gio Ponti-Mile

Mind that Bird-Dirt Mile

Awesome Gem-Dirt Mile

I heard that AG opted for the marathon, which this year is actually turning into a halfway interesting race!

[Allspice]

^ Opps, I only saw his name on the Dirt Mile list. I'll fix it. Thanks Curlin. :)

The Marathon is turning out to be pretty interesting.

[Curlin]

Out of the mouths of babes....

"I asked Bode 'Who is the fastest in the world?' and he said 'Zenyatta,' so I guess it's all uphill."

-- Bob Baffert

(smart kid!)

[The Tin Man]

Out of the mouths of babes....

"I asked Bode 'Who is the fastest in the world?' and he said 'Zenyatta,' so I guess it's all uphill."

-- Bob Baffert

(smart kid!)

Yeah ... He's said before the little one will be quite upset with him if he beats Zenyatta ... He'd better give special instructions to Garcia to come up just short unless he wants to face the wrath ...

I just realized I have a pic of Baffy and Bode ... Here they are at Del Mar on September 4th ...

[Curlin]

Yeah ... He's said before the little one will be quite upset with him if he beats Zenyatta ... He'd better give special instructions to Garcia to come up just short unless he wants to face the wrath ...

I just realized I have a pic of Baffy and Bode ... Here they are at Del Mar on September 4th ...

You could make a funny caption with that one ... hehehe!

[islandgirl45]

You could make a funny caption with that one ... hehehe!

But Daddy, I want to go see Zenyatta!

[The Tin Man]

But Daddy, I want to go see Zenyatta!

Now THAT would actually REALLY fit with that particular picture!

Get your butt out to vote tomorrow IG!! ;-)

P.S. - I know I don't really have to tell you ... You're all over it! :becky:

[islandgirl45]

Now THAT would actually REALLY fit with that particular picture!

Get your butt out to vote tomorrow IG!! ;-)

P.S. - I know I don't really have to tell you ... You're all over it! :becky:

Already got my sample ballot filled out. I meant to vote early but didn't get around to it. Praying our next governor won't be the guy who defrauded Medicare.

[The Tin Man]

Already got my sample ballot filled out. I meant to vote early but didn't get around to it. Praying our next governor won't be the guy who defrauded Medicare.

I'm pulling for Crist for you! :)

[islandgirl45]

I'm pulling for Crist for you! :)

Crist, our current governor, is running for Senate...and likely headed for a big loss. Latest polls have Marco Rubio (R) with a 45-to-31 percent lead over (Independent) Charlie Crist, with Kendrick Meek (Dem) trailing way behind at 18%.

The governor's race is neck and neck. Could go either way. One poll has the Democrat Alex Sink ahead by 44-to-33 percent over Republican Rick Scott; another shows her with just a 1 point lead.

[The Tin Man]

Crist, our current governor, is running for Senate...and likely headed for a big loss. Latest polls have Marco Rubio (R) with a 45-to-31 percent lead over (Independent) Charlie Crist, with Kendrick Meek (Dem) trailing way behind at 18%.

The governor's race is neck and neck. Could go either way. One poll has the Democrat Alex Sink ahead by 44-to-33 percent over Republican Rick Scott; another shows her with just a 1 point lead.

Yeah ... I remember now ... It looks like Meek is gonna cost Crist a chance and you're gonna get stuck with that nutjob Rubio since he won't drop out. :(

At least Sink is looking better.

I think Cali is gonna do the right thing and Whitman and Fiorina won't be outsourcing our jobs in the near future. Whew!

[Curlin]

Back to the topic guys! :evil:

[The Tin Man]

Back to the topic guys! :evil:

Heh Heh Heh ... You've got it! Got sidetracked ... ;-)

[The Colonel]

I'd ask what the f**k a fascist government has to do with anything but that would be derailing the topic...except I still really want to know why the hell that cropped up in the Zenyatta thread.

Seriously, she's the only constant and consistent bright spot in this tipsy turvy timey wimey world right now.

[Brooklyn Cowgirl]

Yeah ... I remember now ... It looks like Meek is gonna cost Crist a chance and you're gonna get stuck with that nutjob Rubio since he won't drop out. :(

At least Sink is looking better.

I think Cali is gonna do the right thing and Whitman and Fiorina won't be outsourcing our jobs in the near future. Whew!


Hey, aren't you guys supposed to be talking about that other sport where big beautiful creatures with small brains run around in circles guided by midgets?

Of course most horses are really quite intelligent--wish I could say the same about most politicians.:evil:

[Blue Jeans]

Hey, aren't you guys supposed to be talking about that other sport where big beautiful creatures with small brains run around in circles guided by midgets?

Of course most horses are really quite intelligent--wish I could say the same about most politicians.:evil:

Finally, a post worth reading. Thank you, BC. :)

[Spahny]

I think a lot you are missing the story on Zenyatta's last race. There aren't very many available examples of a jockey with so much extra weight to carry on his shoulders than Mike Smith. And some of that weight is of his own doing. He talks about Zenyatta as if she is his daughter. "No man is worthy of her"?

When he says that she means more to him than any other horse I don't know why anyone would doubt him. He said it with tears in his eyes.

He's a great big race rider but you have to wonder if any of this emotion could effect his decision making in the big race. I hate to bring it up, and I'm not picking on him, but Stuart Elliot carried a similar weight in Smarty's Belmont. That was his horse of a lifetime and so many people, even those who should have known better, were telling him he could win by 20 lengths. I personally believe that is how he rode the race. He moved too early to put away Eddington and Rock Hard Ten and I think he had convinced himself that Smarty could do anything. I think it cost him a race that I felt there was no way he could lose.

They are human. Mike Smith probably has methods of relaxation and clearing the mind before a big race. I hope they work for him this time. On Saturday he is having his Neil Armstrong moment. He'll be in a place few have been. He'll be there only one time and never again. Sometimes that alone can bring a certain calm. I'll probably be watching his actions in the post parade as closely as Zenyatta's.

[Starine]

I think a lot you are missing the story on Zenyatta's last race. There aren't very many available examples of a jockey with so much extra weight to carry on his shoulders than Mike Smith. And some of that weight is of his own doing. He talks about Zenyatta as if she is his daughter. "No man is worthy of her"?

When he says that she means more to him than any other horse I don't know why anyone would doubt him. He said it with tears in his eyes.

He's a great big race rider but you have to wonder if any of this emotion could effect his decision making in the big race. I hate to bring it up, and I'm not picking on him, but Stuart Elliot carried a similar weight in Smarty's Belmont. That was his horse of a lifetime and so many people, even those who should have known better, were telling him he could win by 20 lengths. I personally believe that is how he rode the race. He moved too early to put away Eddington and Rock Hard Ten and I think he had convinced himself that Smarty could do anything. I think it cost him a race that I felt there was no way he could lose.

They are human. Mike Smith probably has methods of relaxation and clearing the mind before a big race. I hope they work for him this time. On Saturday he is having his Neil Armstrong moment. He'll be in a place few have been. He'll be there only one time and never again. Sometimes that alone can bring a certain calm. I'll probably be watching his actions in the post parade as closely as Zenyatta's.

Those are really interesting observations; thanks for sharing.

[Man o' Taz]

I think a lot you are missing the story on Zenyatta's last race. There aren't very many available examples of a jockey with so much extra weight to carry on his shoulders than Mike Smith. And some of that weight is of his own doing. He talks about Zenyatta as if she is his daughter. "No man is worthy of her"?

When he says that she means more to him than any other horse I don't know why anyone would doubt him. He said it with tears in his eyes.

He's a great big race rider but you have to wonder if any of this emotion could effect his decision making in the big race. I hate to bring it up, and I'm not picking on him, but Stuart Elliot carried a similar weight in Smarty's Belmont. That was his horse of a lifetime and so many people, even those who should have known better, were telling him he could win by 20 lengths. I personally believe that is how he rode the race. He moved too early to put away Eddington and Rock Hard Ten and I think he had convinced himself that Smarty could do anything. I think it cost him a race that I felt there was no way he could lose.

They are human. Mike Smith probably has methods of relaxation and clearing the mind before a big race. I hope they work for him this time. On Saturday he is having his Neil Armstrong moment. He'll be in a place few have been. He'll be there only one time and never again. Sometimes that alone can bring a certain calm. I'll probably be watching his actions in the post parade as closely as Zenyatta's.

Not missing the story at all, I read it in the sports section of today's paper... :becky:

Breeders' Cup: Waiting is the hardest part for Zenyatta's jockey Mike Smith
By BETH HARRIS
The Associated Press
Monday, November 1, 2010; 1:39 PM


INGLEWOOD, Calif. -- The nights before Zenyatta races are the toughest times for Mike Smith.
The Hall of Fame jockey usually tries to occupy himself with a glass of his favorite wine or by watching his beloved sport of football, anything to quiet his frantic mind. He doesn't want to think about Zenyatta's winning streak, now 19-0.
But eventually he caves and opens the Daily Racing Form, the industry's bible of past performances and handicapping.
"Then the floodgates open. What if this happens, what if this happens. It just never stops," he said recently. "As blessed believe me as I am, and I'm not complaining by no means, to ride her also becomes a lot of responsibility."
Smith will feel the pressure again Saturday, when Zenyatta enters the starting gate for the $5 million Breeders' Cup Classic at Churchill Downs.
"If we're blessed enough to finish this thing 20-0, how do you even describe it?" he said. "It would just be incredible."
Last year, she beat the boys to become the first female to win the Classic.
Now she'll take on the best male horses in the world again. A victory would likely make Zenyatta Horse of the Year, an honor she lost out on last year when Rachel Alexandra won.
"It's the first Classic ever that everybody is going to be rooting for one horse," said trainer Bob Baffert, who will saddle Preakness winner Lookin At Lucky in the race.
Zenyatta has that effect on people, making her a huge star in a battered industry desperate to attract new fans, especially women.
She drew the largest crowd in nine years - 25,837 - to Hollywood Park for her most recent race last month. They held up homemade posters and paintings, snapped photos and cheered for the 6-year-old mare whose come-from-behind style creates drama almost every time.
She rewards them with a show, too, high-stepping around the paddock, bowing her head and pawing the ground. Trainer John Shirreffs told Smith after Zenyatta wins to stop her along the grandstand so fans can get a closer look.
"I'm crazy about her," declared Penny Chenery, who owned Triple Crown winner Secretariat.
"She's like Secretariat in that she's a great show. He'd kind of blow himself up to intimidate the competition. With her dance, it's like her opening number to prance into the walking ring."
Unlike most high-strung thoroughbreds, Zenyatta is fan friendly. Shirreffs allows barn visitors to stroke the white blaze on her head and pose for photos with the richest female horse in history.
Owners Jerry and Ann Moss bought her for the bargain price of $60,000 (she had an unsightly skin rash) and she's rewarded them with earnings of more than $6.4 million.
"She's a great star," said Jerry Moss, who had big names on his old A&M Records label. "It's just a beautiful thing to be part of."
Heck, she's down to earth, too, lapping up an occasional Guinness in her stall.
Zenyatta has made her mark in pop culture with her own Twitter account, YouTube videos, Facebook friends in the thousands, an appearance in Oprah's magazine and a "60 Minutes" profile.
"People really watch her now," Smith said. "The fans that adore her. I feel the pressure for them, too. I got to get it right, at least do my part."
That includes keeping his 45-year-old body in peak condition despite constant back pain from riding accidents that sidelined him earlier.
Smith is most often asked what it's like to ride Zenyatta, who is no dainty gal. She's taller than most of the boys and weighs 1,100 pounds.
"It's like laying in a king-sized bed. It's just comfortable," he said. "The great horses are easy to ride."
As beloved as she is, Zenyatta has detractors. They point out that 17 of her 19 wins have come on the controversial synthetic surfaces at Southern California's tracks. Critics have called her out for not racing more often outside her home state. She won easily in her two races on dirt at Oaklawn Park in Arkansas, and Saturday's Classic is on dirt.
"She beats them in the big one and they still want to complain," Smith said dismissively. "Thirty-three months, she's still running this way, that's incredible. No one's ever done this."
Her winning times have been criticized since she hasn't blown away the competition, which isn't as stiff as what she'll face in the Classic. Smith has an answer for that, too.
"People don't understand. She just runs as fast as she has to," he said. "They go faster, she runs faster. They go slower, she'll run slower."
So far, Zenyatta hasn't run as fast as she can and Smith says, "I hope we never find that out."
In the two hours after Zenyatta notched her 19th win - the longest streak in stakes-level modern racing - Smith's cell phone exploded with 88 congratulatory text messages. In a nod to his self-described obsessive-compulsiveness, he responded to them all, even those he didn't know.
"I text whoever it is and if I know them I personalize it just so they know I'm not pushing the 'all' button," he said, smiling.
It's his focus on the smallest details that has propelled Smith to the brink of what could be his greatest moment in the sport. Now if only he can keep his mind off the race the night before.
"It's just the wait and the unknown," he said. "Once you get on, then God, finally I can breathe."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/01/AR2010110103390_pf.html

[Man o' Taz]

OK guys ... Correct me if I'm wrong here because I'm not positive ... Just going from memory ... Don't feel like researching it ...

But aren't Richard's Kid and Twice Over going to The Dubai World Cup ... And Girolamo, Rip Van Winkle, Gio Ponti, Mine That Bird and Awesome Gem are all going to be in Breeder's Cup races ...

So 7 of the 8 she faced last year that are still running will be in either Breeder's Cup races or The Dubai World Cup ... And 6 of those 7 have won Grade 1 races this year ...

All done AFTER she beat them in The Classic ... So the "They were on their downside" defense doesn't work this time kids. ;-)

Sounds like it was a pretty good cast to me and MUCH more experienced at the Classic distance too!

Hmmmmm .... Sounds pretty good ... I wonder what THIS year's cast will be doing next year at this time?

True...if she were actually going to face them all... :becky:

Gio Ponti going to the Turf Mile...
Awesome Gem I think is heading to the Dirt Mile...
Girloamo going to the BC Sprint...
Rip Van Winkle was retired...
Twice Over is not showing up...
Mine That Bird has not returned to form and is being considered for the Dirt Mile and not the Classic...

So, how does the fact that this year those horses are in form, but Zenyatta will not face them figure in at all? ;)

[Dave in TJMex]

I think a lot you are missing the story on Zenyatta's last race. There aren't very many available examples of a jockey with so much extra weight to carry on his shoulders than Mike Smith. And some of that weight is of his own doing. He talks about Zenyatta as if she is his daughter. "No man is worthy of her"?

When he says that she means more to him than any other horse I don't know why anyone would doubt him. He said it with tears in his eyes.

He's a great big race rider but you have to wonder if any of this emotion could effect his decision making in the big race. I hate to bring it up, and I'm not picking on him, but Stuart Elliot carried a similar weight in Smarty's Belmont. That was his horse of a lifetime and so many people, even those who should have known better, were telling him he could win by 20 lengths. I personally believe that is how he rode the race. He moved too early to put away Eddington and Rock Hard Ten and I think he had convinced himself that Smarty could do anything. I think it cost him a race that I felt there was no way he could lose.

They are human. Mike Smith probably has methods of relaxation and clearing the mind before a big race. I hope they work for him this time. On Saturday he is having his Neil Armstrong moment. He'll be in a place few have been. He'll be there only one time and never again. Sometimes that alone can bring a certain calm. I'll probably be watching his actions in the post parade as closely as Zenyatta's.

Fortunately for Zenyatta fans, the long, long stretch at CD will make Mike Smith's job a lot easier.

That fully quarter-mile long stretch will allow Z a LOT more time than usual to catch all the horses in front of her. Meaning that Smith will have to take less chances on the far turn (either going 4-5 wide, losing lots of ground in the process, or staying closer to the rail, hoping for a seam to run through at the top of the stretch, but running the risk he will run into traffic problems and get her blocked) before asking Zenyatta for her best run.

I fully expect Smith to ride a conservative, somewhat risk-averse race on Saturday. His goal should simply be to try and make sure that at the top of the stretch, Zenyatta has a clear lane to run in. Toward that end, I suspect he will lose a little ground if he has to going wide (if the field is bunched) rather than take a chance keeping her inside and getting her blocked.

Late in Cigar's career, Jerry Bailey seemed to ride this way. He always had Cigar very wide, as if Bill Mott had told him, "whatever you do, make sure Cigar has clear lane to run in during the stretch run." As a result, Bailey and Cigar lost a few races late in Cigar's career that, if Bailey had saved more ground on the turns, Cigar might have won.

I think Smith will give Z her best chance to finish her career unbeaten by avoiding traffic and running wide, if necessary. The long stretch at CD, however, means that Zenyatta may be able to gallop up and close ground on the pack on the far turn by staying on the rail, then swing outside for the stretch run.

So, my long-winded post is to make the point that the long CD stretch will relieve some of the pressure that might otherwise be on Mike Smith he if were riding at a track with a significantly shorter stretch.

[PONYRCR]

TVG is reporting (via Facebook) that Zenyatta has landed in Louisville. Next stop Churchill Downs.

[drjohnh]

TVG is reporting (via Facebook) that Zenyatta has landed in Louisville. Next stop Churchill Downs.

thank you! the news i wanted to see

[StarGirl11]

Just bought a copy of the SI issue with Z in it at Pheonix airport. Have not read it yet fully at least but looks good and the pictures are great.

[islandgirl45]

thank you! the news i wanted to see

Lookin At Lucky was on the same plane, I believe.

[ricquelle]

Zenyatta has arrived at Churchill Downs.

http://ttimesflash.tumblr.com/

[DesertHeat]

I just got back to the hotel after watching her unload from the van. It was so gratifying to see the mass swarm of people there for her, and hear the gasping comments from those who had never seen her. "She's huge!" and "Look at her dapples!" and all that. Real gasps of admiration.

She wasn't worked up, really, but she did do her walk while "grazing" (aka not grazing, but strutting and posing until they gave up). Especially fun was Ann Moss following her everywhere with a little hand held camera, snapping photo after photo. Cars driving past on the street stopped to take cell phone shots of her through the fence...

[My Flag]

http://www.whas11.com/news/Undefeated-Zenyatta-arrives-in-Louisville-106525774.html

Photos and video of her arrival.

[gravano]

Jane Smiley has a nice article on legendary racemares here, in case you need more Zenyatta articles. It's really good though.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/zenyatta-shows-old-ways-still-work/?scp=6&sq=smiley&st=cse

[Uh-oh Bango]

TVG is reporting (via Facebook) that Zenyatta has landed in Louisville. Next stop Churchill Downs.

The Zeagle has landed!

...I wonder if she was trash-talking Lucky on the trip over.

[islandgirl45]

Jane Smiley has a nice article on legendary racemares here, in case you need more Zenyatta articles. It's really good though.

http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/30/zenyatta-shows-old-ways-still-work/?scp=6&sq=smiley&st=cse

I absolutely love that photo of her overtaking Switch. She looks cool, calm and collected, while Switch appears to be screaming, "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[serenassong]

The Z is in the house!

[islandgirl45]

Alex Brown weighs in on The Rail blog with....
http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/why-retire-zenyatta/
(http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/why-retire-zenyatta/)
November 2, 2010, 10:42 am Why Retire Zenyatta?

By ALEX BROWN (http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/author/alex-brown/) "Zenyatta is a perfect 19 and 0. On Saturday she will attempt to win her 20th race and continue her march to history. I don’t think anyone, bar the connections of each of her foes on Saturday, will be rooting against her. And if Bob Baffert is correct, even those with horses in the race will start rooting for her when she overtakes their horse.
Not only is Zenyatta undefeated, but she has charisma. We enjoy watching her dance in the paddock and post parade; she seems to be playing to the crowd (http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/04/08/multimedia/1247467565220/zenyatta-struts-her-stuff.html) and enjoying what she is doing.
So why retire her? If she is perfectly healthy, as we are led to believe, she can make more money on the track than in the breeding shed (unlike a colt). If she keeps winning for fun, and enjoys herself, this is simply a tremendous opportunity to continue to showcase a true star; a star that can become inspirational to a much wider audience........."

[StarGirl11]

On the lines of the AB article it is interesting that the SI article says that Jerry still won't commit to retiring her after the BC. I mean I an pretty sure she will retire but who knows?

[Curlin]

Alex Brown weighs in on The Rail blog with....
http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/why-retire-zenyatta/
(http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/why-retire-zenyatta/)
November 2, 2010, 10:42 am Why Retire Zenyatta?

By ALEX BROWN (http://therail.blogs.nytimes.com/author/alex-brown/) "Zenyatta is a perfect 19 and 0. On Saturday she will attempt to win her 20th race and continue her march to history. I don’t think anyone, bar the connections of each of her foes on Saturday, will be rooting against her. And if Bob Baffert is correct, even those with horses in the race will start rooting for her when she overtakes their horse.
Not only is Zenyatta undefeated, but she has charisma. We enjoy watching her dance in the paddock and post parade; she seems to be playing to the crowd (http://video.nytimes.com/video/2010/04/08/multimedia/1247467565220/zenyatta-struts-her-stuff.html) and enjoying what she is doing.
So why retire her? If she is perfectly healthy, as we are led to believe, she can make more money on the track than in the breeding shed (unlike a colt). If she keeps winning for fun, and enjoys herself, this is simply a tremendous opportunity to continue to showcase a true star; a star that can become inspirational to a much wider audience........."

I was going to post the link to this blog post until I saw your post, IG. I sure hope the Mosses don't see this post and are swayed to keep her on the track as a 7 year old. Though the prospect of her running in the Dubai World Cup, or at Royal Ascot sounds very tantalizing indeed. ;)

[islandgirl45]

On the lines of the AB article it is interesting that the SI article says that Jerry still won't commit to retiring her after the BC. I mean I an pretty sure she will retire but who knows?

I wish she could run in a prep for the Dubai World Cup, the DWC, then retire afterward. However, I recognize that's unlikely to happen.

[The Tin Man]

Damn! Talk about some serious talent on that flight!!



Also aboard the Tex Sutton charter flight from California were 10 other horses that are scheduled to compete in the Breeders’ Cup, including Preakness (gr. I) winner Lookin At Lucky (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/lookin-at-lucky/2007?source=BHonline), who will face Zenyatta in the Classic. Others included A Z Warrior (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/a-z-warrior/2008?source=BHonline) and Gabby's Golden Gal (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/gabbys-golden-gal/2006?source=BHonline) for trainer Bob Baffert; Champ Pegasus (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/champ-pegasus/2006?source=BHonline) and Crown of Thorns (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/crown-of-thorns/2005?source=BHonline) for Richard Mandella; Awesome Gem (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/awesome-gem/2003?source=BHonline) and Tropic Storm (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/tropic-storm/2004?source=BHonline) for Craig Dollase; Unzip Me (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/unzip-me/2006?source=BHonline) for Martin Jones; Jaycito (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/jaycito/2008?source=BHonline) for Mike Mitchell; and J P's Gusto (http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/thoroughbred/j-ps-gusto/2008?source=BHonline) for David Hofmans.

[personalensign79]

PP#8!

[Secretariat Forever]

Alright! She looks amazing and so alert and already she started doing her signature moves!

[The Tin Man]

I think a lot you are missing the story on Zenyatta's last race. There aren't very many available examples of a jockey with so much extra weight to carry on his shoulders than Mike Smith. And some of that weight is of his own doing. He talks about Zenyatta as if she is his daughter. "No man is worthy of her"?

When he says that she means more to him than any other horse I don't know why anyone would doubt him. He said it with tears in his eyes.

He's a great big race rider but you have to wonder if any of this emotion could effect his decision making in the big race. I hate to bring it up, and I'm not picking on him, but Stuart Elliot carried a similar weight in Smarty's Belmont. That was his horse of a lifetime and so many people, even those who should have known better, were telling him he could win by 20 lengths. I personally believe that is how he rode the race. He moved too early to put away Eddington and Rock Hard Ten and I think he had convinced himself that Smarty could do anything. I think it cost him a race that I felt there was no way he could lose.

They are human. Mike Smith probably has methods of relaxation and clearing the mind before a big race. I hope they work for him this time. On Saturday he is having his Neil Armstrong moment. He'll be in a place few have been. He'll be there only one time and never again. Sometimes that alone can bring a certain calm. I'll probably be watching his actions in the post parade as closely as Zenyatta's.

Fantastic post Spahny! :)

[islandgirl45]

Fantastic post Spahny! :)

Mike is a complete professional. He'll be fine.

[The Tin Man]

True...if she were actually going to face them all... :becky:

Gio Ponti going to the Turf Mile...
Awesome Gem I think is heading to the Dirt Mile...
Girloamo going to the BC Sprint...
Rip Van Winkle was retired...
Twice Over is not showing up...
Mine That Bird has not returned to form and is being considered for the Dirt Mile and not the Classic...

So, how does the fact that this year those horses are in form, but Zenyatta will not face them figure in at all? ;)


Taz my friend ... You missed my point. ;-)

My point is that LAST year's group was a tougher group than THIS year's Classic group IMHO. I can't see how the group she faces this year goes on to accomplish as much as last year's group did in the following year. Last year's group was a damn good group ... This year's group is lesser IMHO ...

Hence ... I'm more confident in her ability to win The Classic this year than I was last year ... And I singled her in my trifecta last year ... So guess what I'm gonna do this year? :evil:

And if she loses ... Oh well ... I wouldn't lose much because I singled her. But singling her allows me to backload my trifecta heavily so I'll likely hit it if she wins.

I feel the competition is MUCH more heated for 2nd and 3rd this year than it will be for first. So I'll take my chances for better back end coverage.

I expect she'll win ... But I could see scenarios where Haynesfield, QR, Lucky or Blame could too ... But I fear that group less than I feared last year's. :)

[islandgirl45]

True...if she were actually going to face them all... :becky:

Gio Ponti going to the Turf Mile...
Awesome Gem I think is heading to the Dirt Mile...
Girloamo going to the BC Sprint...
Rip Van Winkle was retired...
Twice Over is not showing up...
Mine That Bird has not returned to form and is being considered for the Dirt Mile and not the Classic...

So, how does the fact that this year those horses are in form, but Zenyatta will not face them figure in at all? ;)

Awesome Gem is in the Marathon, instead of the Dirt Mile.

[GinTalking]

Taz my friend ... You missed my point. ;-)

My point is that LAST year's group was a tougher group than THIS year's Classic group IMHO.

I don't know how you can say that. For turf horses and AW runners, they were a fine bunch, but this is a dirt race and there were no real honest to gosh dirt horses (except Summer Bird) running last year.

This year, it's a different scenario ... top to bottom, these are dirt horses, and they are better than average dirt horses. If and when she beats this group, she will have accomplished a lot more than she did last year ... IMHO.

As Bob Baffert so eloquently put it earlier this morning ... "the Classic this year is like a horse going for the Triple Crown." He pointed out that for the most part, most times, that's not the case although it has been like that in some Classics ... the Lone Star Classic certainly was, as was the one Awesome Again won here. Hmmm ... both those races were won by Stronach. Good thing he doesn't have a runner in this year's edition.

[GinTalking]

After the initial onslaught of folks when Zenyatta arrived, they put her in her stall. However, about a half hour later, she was back out much to the delight of a much much much smaller crowd ... maybe 10-12 folks?

She stayed out for quite a long time. They have barriers up to keep everyone back, but she wanders around a lot so she made it back and forth across the grazing area several times, standing like a statue, posing, looking around. I'm going to guess she was out close to an hour the second time. The first time, maybe about 15-20 minutes.

The cool thing was that people would drive by and see people standing around photographing this horse, and they'd pull over and get out to see Zenyatta. Even some folks who live across the street came over to see her .. they all had to peek through the chain link fence. At one point, there might have been about six cars pulled over so maybe 6-8 people standing on the street side of the fence. She did wander over to them too. It's a little tough to get a shot through chain link, but it can be done. :-)

[The Tin Man]

I don't know how you can say that. For turf horses and AW runners, they were a fine bunch, but this is a dirt race and there were no real honest to gosh dirt horses (except Summer Bird) running last year.



Gin ... I'm talking solely 1 race versus the other race. In other words, I was more worried about her chances last year st Santa Anita on AWS against that bunch than I am worried about her at Churchill against this bunch on dirt.

I think last year's race was more challenging to her. That's all I'm saying. I feared her chances in the race last year more than I do this year. I felt last year's group was a much better group on AWS than this year's group is on dirt.

One thing SO many people don't seem to be figuring in here is LAST year's group was a MORE experienced bunch with MUCH more experience at the CLASSIC distance and MOST of the horses in that field were coming into the race off of their HIGHEST Beyers of the year ... Aka ... PRIMED!

I don't see that with this year's bunch and for those who just want to predictably say the horses she faced were at a disadvantage because of the surface ... You just might want to take a look at their historical performances on synthetics and you'd be quite surprised. ;-)

But whoever differs with MY opinion ... That's great! No problem ... It's just my opinion and we're all entitled to differing opinions. I have no issue with that. Just stating mine. :)

[Curlin]

I don't know how you can say that. For turf horses and AW runners, they were a fine bunch, but this is a dirt race and there were no real honest to gosh dirt horses (except Summer Bird) running last year.

This year, it's a different scenario ... top to bottom, these are dirt horses, and they are better than average dirt horses. If and when she beats this group, she will have accomplished a lot more than she did last year ... IMHO.

As Bob Baffert so eloquently put it earlier this morning ... "the Classic this year is like a horse going for the Triple Crown." He pointed out that for the most part, most times, that's not the case although it has been like that in some Classics ... the Lone Star Classic certainly was, as was the one Awesome Again won here. Hmmm ... both those races were won by Stronach. Good thing he doesn't have a runner in this year's edition.

Why does this keep being brought up, I wonder? There was Girolamo, now a G1 winner, Colonel John, winner of the Travers, and Regal Ransom, the Super Derby winner. Granted, CJ ran more on synthetics, but he was a G1 winner on both surfaces. Awesome Gem won the G2 Hawthorne Gold Cup on dirt. Surface, as an argument about her level of competition, for me at least, has become completely irrelevant.

Let's not forget the Euros in the past who've performed well on dirt who were primarily raced on turf - Archangues, Arazi, Johannesburg, Sakhee and Giant's Causeway in particular. With the exception of Archangues, they were considered some of the top runners of their generation.

Stakes winners are stakes winners, regardless of surface. It assumes a level of quality of competition, and it's not as if the Euros / turfers ran at Turf Paradise or Beulah Park. Her competition have included winners at Ascot, Newmarket, amongst the Euros, and Belmont and Saratoga, to name a few high-level tracks.

People are still bringing up Tiznow's courageous wins against 2 stellar Euros in Sakhee and Giant's Causeway. Why not, in hindsight, say how crappy his competition were because he beat Euro turfers? (perhaps, had this forum been here in 2001, this would have been argued ad nauseum like this is being done here)

Ok rant over ;)

[GinTalking]

http://www.theshedrow.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=29&pos=21

This is maybe half to two-thirds of the crowd that was there to greet Zenyatta this morning, sometime after noon today.

[islandgirl45]

Why does this keep being brought up, I wonder? There was Girolamo, now a G1 winner, Colonel John, winner of the Travers, and Regal Ransom, the Super Derby winner. Granted, CJ ran more on synthetics, but he was a G1 winner on both surfaces.

And let's not forget the Euros who've performed well on dirt who were primarily raced on turf - Archangues, Arazi, Johannesburg, Sakhee and Giant's Causeway in particular.

Using surface as an argument about her level of competition, for me at least, has become completely irrelevant. Stakes winners are stakes winners, regardless of surface. It assumes a level of quality of competition, and it's not as if the Euros ran at Turf Paradise or Beulah Park. These are winners at Ascot, Newmarket, Belmont and Gulfstream, to name a few high-level tracks.

People are still bringing up Tiznow's courageous wins against 2 stellar Euros in Sakhee and Giant's Causeway. Why not, in hindsight, say how crappy his competition were because they were Euros on grass? (perhaps, had this forum been here in 2001, this would have been argued ad nauseum like this is being done here)

Ok rant over ;)

People who detest synthetic tracks often seem to think horses that primarily race over them are inferior to horses that primarily race on dirt. I've read this same viewpoint over and over on a variety of different Web sites.

[serenassong]

Great pic and look at how dappled she is! :photo: Pretty much the view of her the other horses will be seeing as she hits the line.

[Blue Jeans]

http://www.theshedrow.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=29&pos=21

This is maybe half to two-thirds of the crowd that was there to greet Zenyatta this morning, sometime after noon today.

Here's another article ... with video of her arrival:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59635/top-mare-zenyatta-arrives-at-churchill-downs

[GinTalking]

Ok rant over ;)

Colonel John should have spent his racing career in the East. I know I am not alone in thinking he wasn't really suited for synthetic surfaces. Yes, he ran credibly on the West Coast, but I think most folks thought he was a DIRT horse who for some silly reason spent most of his time running on a surface he didn't prefer. Why people do that with a good horse, I don't know ... but they do. Tiago was another who probably would have preferred to run elsewhere.

Dirt horses don't necessarily transfer their form to synthetics just as not all horses run well on turf. That's the only point here. Maybe that's why we appreciate what Summer Bird was able to do at Santa Anita. He was a dirt horse, but he ran a good solid race.

I've not figured out why this is such a sore subject with so many people. Well, maybe it's just a certain group of people. There are always going to be horses who prefer one surface over another ... and only a handful of horses for whom surface is not an issue. Some horses are mudlarks; others despise it. That's just the way it works. It's a fact. We may not like it, but we need to learn to deal with it.

It's unfortunate when a horse like Forego, for instance, doesn't like mud ... but the facts are, he didn't like it and didn't run well on it. So what. Doesn't take away from his career.

[islandgirl45]

I saw this on another Web site about Z's arrival at Churchill. It's kinda small, but her height in relation to people is part of her mystique, I think.

275

[PONYRCR]

More from Facebook: From Backside55 "I tweeted this, but: "Jerry moss said "not necessarily zenyattas last race" in the post draw press conference." @TVG"

[islandgirl45]

More from Facebook: From Backside55 "I tweeted this, but: "Jerry moss said "not necessarily zenyattas last race" in the post draw press conference." @TVG"

Hmm. Do you suppose Sheikh Mohammed has been courting the Mosses and Shirreffs?

[The Tin Man]

Colonel John should have spent his racing career in the East. I know I am not alone in thinking he wasn't really suited for synthetic surfaces. Yes, he ran credibly on the West Coast, but I think most folks thought he was a DIRT horse who for some silly reason spent most of his time running on a surface he didn't prefer. Why people do that with a good horse, I don't know ... but they do. Tiago was another who probably would have preferred to run elsewhere.



Colonel John's record on synthetics was 12-4-3-1 ... That's 7 of 12 in 1st or 2nd ... Including a win in the Santa Anita Derby and 2nd place finishes in the Cash Call Futurity and The Goodwood ... Plus his career high Beyer was set on synth ...

Yet everybody likes to act like he was notably inferior on synthetics and that's simply NOT the case.

He ran TWO races on dirt in his ENTIRE career ... One of them was a nose win in The Travers and the other was a 14 1/4 length butt whipping in The Kentucky Derby ...

How that equates to better on DIRT ... I have NO idea ...

Makes ZERO sense to me.

His record would back that he was NOTABLY better on SYNTH.

SO many people who down last year's field just haven't actually researched the prowess of last year's group on SYNTH ... They just suppose. I find that funny.

I think the reason this is a "sore" subject is because SO many people just assume that the major players in last year did not translate well to synth and that's simply untrue ... Most of these horses year high Beyers were set on synth and most of the major players did VERY well on synth PRIOR to running in that race. Einstein was awesome in his 2 prior synth races.

I happily challenge anyone to check on the synth performances of last year's field PRIOR to the race. You'd be surprised with how efficient they were on it. I checked in great detail ... It appears many who criticize last year's field have not.

Gin ... I promise you this is not directed at you specifically. It's just kind of a blanket statement. No offense meant at all. Just speaking to the masses ... Not you directly. :)

[The Tin Man]

More from Facebook: From Backside55 "I tweeted this, but: "Jerry moss said "not necessarily zenyattas last race" in the post draw press conference." @TVG"

I pray this is her LAST race and she retires healthy.

As great as she is and as much as I love watching her ... I'm not for tempting fate with her health any longer. After this Cup, she's done enough(Win or lose) ... I want her out of the game safely.

[GinTalking]

People who detest synthetic tracks often seem to think horses that primarily race over them are inferior to horses that primarily race on dirt. I've read this same viewpoint over and over on a variety of different Web sites.

That's not true at all. It's a matter of preference and running your horse on the surface it prefers. When they make you run your dirt horse on a synthetic surface, then you have two choices ... bite the bullet and take a shot or skip the race altogether.

It would be the same thing if the Classic suddenly became a turf race. There would be an entirely different group of horses entered. That only makes sense.

Informed Decision, for instance, seems to prefer synthetic surfaces. She is a Champion because they kept her on the surface she wants to run over. If they'd kept running her on dirt or turf, she likely wouldn't have been named Champion. She puts some holes in your argument that synthetic horses aren't respected. ;-)

[Secretariat Forever]

Love this.



http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=459234893330&set=a.111163953330.95867.100801093330


276

[GinTalking]

I pray this is her LAST race and she retires healthy.

As great as she is and as much as I love watching her ... I'm not for tempting fate with her health any longer. After this Cup, she's done enough(Win or lose) ... I want her out of the game safely.

She's their horse and they can do whatever they want ....

BUT if she's going to run next year, then for heaven's sake, do something out of the box with her. No one is ever going to beat 20-for-20 (or 19 of 20?) so as a friend just said, "Have some fun with her". Run her around the country, show her off, challenge her ..." and if she loses, NO ONE WILL REALLY CARE. I think they would be ecstatically happy to just see her.

See, I don't understand why her most devout fans don't want that of her. I guess I'm a loon, but I like to see my favorites challenged and if they lose, sure, it's a little sad, but it's not the end of the world. I appreciate them just as much, maybe even more. I don't jump from the bandwagon though. A real fan would never not still appreciate a horse, win or lose.

[Happy Endings]

Here's another article ... with video of her arrival:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59635/top-mare-zenyatta-arrives-at-churchill-downs

I haven't been able to get the bloodhorse site to load all day. Think they are a little busy over there?

[Curlin]

Here's another article ... with video of her arrival:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59635/top-mare-zenyatta-arrives-at-churchill-downs

I would have enjoyed the article more had the writer used "horde" instead of "hoard."

Does the BH edit its articles before the writers post them for public view? It doesn't seem like it lately. Ok, that's my grammar police commentary for the day. :evil:

[The Tin Man]

She's their horse and they can do whatever they want ....

BUT if she's going to run next year, then for heaven's sake, do something out of the box with her. No one is ever going to beat 20-for-20 (or 19 of 20?) so as a friend just said, "Have some fun with her". Run her around the country, show her off, challenge her ..." and if she loses, NO ONE WILL REALLY CARE. I think they would be ecstatically happy to just see her.

See, I don't understand why her most devout fans don't want that of her. I guess I'm a loon, but I like to see my favorites challenged and if they lose, sure, it's a little sad, but it's not the end of the world. I appreciate them just as much, maybe even more. I don't jump from the bandwagon though. A real fan would never not still appreciate a horse, win or lose.

If she loses The Classic, I'll love and respect her just as much as I do now. She did enough for me a long, long time ago.

As far as MY not wanting her to run next year ... It's solely about not risking injury to me. I'm really paranoid about that.

IF they run her next year ... I have to imagine it will ALL be either for ultimate tests or showing her off to the rest of the country. I. E. ... The Dubai World Cup ... A New York race ... And maybe even a turf one. WELL spaced out too. Like 2 or 3 months in between. It's gravy time if they run her. Because if she wins The Classic again, she's more than proved her greatness. Anything more is just gravy time.

That being said ... I sure as hell hope that she retires after this next race ... Happy and healthy. I don't wanna risk injury with her by taking on another year. She will have done enough. :)

[The Tin Man]

I would have enjoyed the article more had the writer used "horde" instead of "hoard."

Does the BH edit its articles before the writers post them for public view? It doesn't seem like it lately. Ok, that's my grammar police commentary for the day. :evil:

Maybe SOTS is their editor ... Just sayin' ... ;-)

[EquineAnne]

I would have loved to see her run in the Arc or in GB. I don't want her running in Dubai.

[bare it all]

Maybe SOTS is their editor ... Just sayin' ... ;-)


:bounce:

[Commentator]

I'm perfectly okay with her retiring after the Classic, should she win. 20-0 will do more for her legend than 25-2, even if those wins include the DWC. Undefeated horses have a certain mystique that resonate through the ages, and I totally understand why they would want to preserve it. Heck, I would have retired her after the Classic last year. I'm glad they chose to race her instead, but doing it a second time doesn't seem mandatory.

There's also the fact that it's unrealistic to think that she can carry her extraordinary form across four years. She's not invincible, as much as we like to believe it :)

[Horse's Rear]

There's also the fact that it's unrealistic to think that she can carry her extraordinary form across four years. She's not invincible, as much as we like to believe it :)

Another reminder of the extraordinary achievement of Kincsem, going undefeated at 2, 3, 4, and 5, while making more than twice as many starts as Zenyatta will compile.

[Ingrid]

Another reminder of the extraordinary achievement of Kincsem, going undefeated at 2, 3, 4, and 5, while making more than twice as many starts as Zenyatta will compile.

Yeah, but it's not an absolute guarantee that it was Kincsem in all those races. There's a pretty legit rumor that a stablemate double took her place in some of them.

[Secretariat Forever]

Yeah, but it's not an absolute guarantee that it was Kincsem in all those races. There's a pretty legit rumor that a stablemate double took her place in some of them.

Huh? That's odd!

[Horse's Rear]

Yeah, but it's not an absolute guarantee that it was Kincsem in all those races. There's a pretty legit rumor that a stablemate double took her place in some of them.
I hope that that's a lame attempt at a joke, because it's a total crock. There was never a hint of a ringer scandal with Kincsem.

[Secretariat Forever]

I hope that that's a lame attempt at a joke, because it's a total crock. There was never a hint of a ringer scandal with Kincsem.

Either way, people are so quick to knock Zenyatta's record saying she hasn't faced open company enough, or great competition. But those same people are even quicker to say Kincsem has the better record, etc. A horse that raced way over 100 years ago. We all actually know VERY little about her and her record. I also remember reading somewhere that a few of her races were walkovers and a few had VERY small fields...like 2-3 horse fields including her. We don't know what kind of horses she was facing. For all we know they were no better than a maiden claimer.

[Happy Endings]

Holy moley...the dapples go up her neck!???

In this video she stops at one point while the camera is pretty close and it looks like the dappling extends most of the way up her neck.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/5BCC2CE6-8C0F-4154-B141-F304812C98EA

[islandgirl45]

That's not true at all. It's a matter of preference and running your horse on the surface it prefers. When they make you run your dirt horse on a synthetic surface, then you have two choices ... bite the bullet and take a shot or skip the race altogether.

It would be the same thing if the Classic suddenly became a turf race. There would be an entirely different group of horses entered. That only makes sense.

Informed Decision, for instance, seems to prefer synthetic surfaces. She is a Champion because they kept her on the surface she wants to run over. If they'd kept running her on dirt or turf, she likely wouldn't have been named Champion. She puts some holes in your argument that synthetic horses aren't respected. ;-)

No, not really. TBC isn't the only site I browse. I didn't hallucinate reading a Bloodhorse writer say only dirt tracks are the "true test" of a horse, nor did I hallucinate reading derogatory comments about "Polyatta" and more of that ilk.

I do get what you're saying, though, as it applies to Informed Decision.

[The Tin Man]

I'm perfectly okay with her retiring after the Classic, should she win. 20-0 will do more for her legend than 25-2, even if those wins include the DWC. Undefeated horses have a certain mystique that resonate through the ages, and I totally understand why they would want to preserve it. Heck, I would have retired her after the Classic last year. I'm glad they chose to race her instead, but doing it a second time doesn't seem mandatory.

There's also the fact that it's unrealistic to think that she can carry her extraordinary form across four years. She's not invincible, as much as we like to believe it :)

I agree with this ... It's HIGHLY unlikely that even she would be able to maintain her level of excellence at age 7 ... That REALLY pushing it.

[islandgirl45]

She's their horse and they can do whatever they want ....

BUT if she's going to run next year, then for heaven's sake, do something out of the box with her. No one is ever going to beat 20-for-20 (or 19 of 20?) so as a friend just said, "Have some fun with her". Run her around the country, show her off, challenge her ..." and if she loses, NO ONE WILL REALLY CARE. I think they would be ecstatically happy to just see her.

See, I don't understand why her most devout fans don't want that of her. I guess I'm a loon, but I like to see my favorites challenged and if they lose, sure, it's a little sad, but it's not the end of the world. I appreciate them just as much, maybe even more. I don't jump from the bandwagon though. A real fan would never not still appreciate a horse, win or lose.

I can't imagine the Mosses and John Shirreffs would take her through a year-long campaign. As TTM said, maybe they would just aim her at a few big targets. If she did go to Dubai, for example, would she still be back in time for the breeding season?

[The Tin Man]

Either way, people are so quick to knock Zenyatta's record saying she hasn't faced open company enough, or great competition. But those same people are even quicker to say Kincsem has the better record, etc. A horse that raced way over 100 years ago. We all actually know VERY little about her and her record. I also remember reading somewhere that a few of her races were walkovers and a few had VERY small fields...like 2-3 horse fields including her. We don't know what kind of horses she was facing. For all we know they were no better than a maiden claimer.

BINGO!!

And who knows how precise Hungarian horse racing statistics are. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her races were not documented. I think it's highly likely she lost multiple times. I don't have a ton of faith in 1800's Hungarian horse racing statistics.

I'm NOT saying she lost or that the statistics are incorrect. I'm just saying I have no faith that they would be precise from that time period and that country in that time period. They could be correct, I don't know. I have no way of truly knowing.

It, however, doesn't have any bearing on my thoughts of Zenyatta's prowess. I can only judge based on statistics in which I have faith.

[dustino140]

Kincesm is as talented as Bambera, which the last time I looked, means 'American allowance horse' in Spanish.

[dustino140]

BINGO!!

And who knows how precise Hungarian horse racing statistics are. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her races were not documented. I think it's highly likely she lost multiple times. I don't have a ton of faith in 1800's Hungarian horse racing statistics.

I'm NOT saying she lost or that the statistics are incorrect. I'm just saying I have no faith that they would be precise from that time period and that country in that time period. They could be correct, I don't know. I have no way of truly knowing.

It, however, doesn't have any bearing on my thoughts of Zenyatta's prowess. I can only judge based on statistics in which I have faith.

Isn't that just a convenient cop-out? Why single out Hungary? Why not doubt any statistic from the pre-Youtube days? And even those ones, partymanners could have just doctored the footage, right?

[The Tin Man]

Isn't that just a convenient cop-out? Why single out Hungary? Why not doubt any statistic from the pre-Youtube days? And even those ones, partymanners could have just doctored the footage, right?

Germany, France, Brazil ... Wherever in the world of 1800's horse racing. How confident are you in their statistics Dustino?

In all honesty ... I have NO idea if Kincsem was better than Zenyatta or even the best horse ever. How could I possibly know? I don't know a single horse she beat ... Do you Dustino? Just curious. If your answer is no, then how can you proclaim her greatness when you have no idea who she beat?

[The Tin Man]

Just for the record Kincsem experts ... I'm sure she was a great horse in her time. But how we can deign to proclaim she's the best ever when we really know so little about her compared to modern horses, I have no idea. We're talking over 100 years between horses ... How the heck are we supposed to be able to make a realistic comparison? I mean ... really?

[islandgirl45]

Kincesm is as talented as Bambera, which the last time I looked, means 'American allowance horse' in Spanish.

Is this your opinion? Or just a tongue-in-cheek comment?

[dustino140]

Germany, France, Brazil ... Wherever in the world of 1800's horse racing. How confident are you in their statistics Dustino?

In all honesty ... I have NO idea if Kincsem was better than Zenyatta or even the best horse ever. How could I possibly know? I don't know a single horse she beat ... Do you Dustino? Just curious. If your answer is no, then how can you proclaim her greatness when you have no idea who she beat?

I've never been given a reason to question the statistics.

[dustino140]

Is this your opinion? Or just a tongue-in-cheek comment?

Let's go with fact.

[islandgirl45]

Let's go with fact.

How can anyone today know that for certain?

[dustino140]

How can anyone today know that for certain?

Oh that part is a joke. I thought you were referring to the Bambera part.

[Miss Woodford]

BINGO!!

And who knows how precise Hungarian horse racing statistics are. I wouldn't be surprised if some of her races were not documented. I think it's highly likely she lost multiple times. I don't have a ton of faith in 1800's Hungarian horse racing statistics.

I'm NOT saying she lost or that the statistics are incorrect. I'm just saying I have no faith that they would be precise from that time period and that country in that time period. They could be correct, I don't know. I have no way of truly knowing.

It, however, doesn't have any bearing on my thoughts of Zenyatta's prowess. I can only judge based on statistics in which I have faith.
It isn't the Hungarian statistics that puts her on the official record books. She was a celebrity and raced throughout Europe, so we have records of her form from the UK and French racing publications, too. And her Goodwood Cup win made news in the US, as did the news of her retirement.
An article from the New York Times, August 1878
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C00E7DB143EE63BBC4A53DFBE668383669FDE

[Kurenai]

The ringer comments about Kincsem are laughable. Riiiight, find easily another horse than can win at the highest level and looks exactly the same. (But we had this discussion before iirc).

Here's some more info about her if you want: http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Kincsem.html

I don't have a list of names she beat, but could request the charts of the Austrian derby, just would have to call the racing secretary I guess, they all have that stored there. I can only tell you that back in that time, the Austrian derby was a race for absolute top level horses, she didn't beat up a cheap bunch of claimers, but the best the other countries had to offer.

Anyhow, back to Zenyatta and sorry for the off topic. :becky:

I would love to see her go to the DWC and then they can breed her afterwards (would still be enough time for a foal, would be a late foal but still enough time). Don't even want another full season, especially if she has another campaign like this year. Just the DWC would be enough.

[islandgirl45]

It isn't the Hungarian statistics that puts her on the official record books. She was a celebrity and raced throughout Europe, so we have records of her form from the UK and French racing publications, too. And her Goodwood Cup win made news in the US, as did the news of her retirement.
An article from the New York Times, August 1878
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C00E7DB143EE63BBC4A53DFBE668383669FDE

Interesting, the NY Times article calls Kincsem a "he.":)

[Ingrid]

I know I personally read the ringer rumors on TBC itself, back when there was the profiles of various horses.

[MonmouthGuy]

For all we know they were no better than a maiden claimer.

A disgraceful post, and another example of how our education system has failed in teaching the younger generation to understand and respect history.

[The Tin Man]

Miss Woodford and Kurenai ...

Thank you for taking my posts in the proper context. I appreciate that. You know how SO many here take things out of context and get overly defensive. I appreciate that you too understand that my thoughts of accuracy and competition level faced in ALL 54 races ... Not to mention comparing 2 time periods so damn far apart are sincere.

I really couldn't begin to compare the 2 even were I an expert on both. Just too many variables. Really apples and oranges. Two different eras and how much can we trust statistics compiled over 100 years ago. Even were I to know every horse she ever faced names, I'd still have no realistic way of gauging how good they were.

Just to hard to really tell IMHO ... But thanks for the info. I appreciate it. :)

[MonmouthGuy]

How the heck are we supposed to be able to make a realistic comparison? I mean ... really?


the same way that you make realistic comparisons day after day about how Zenyatta would fare on dirt against male horses over the last 40 years at a Classic distance on dirt.

[The Tin Man]

A disgraceful post, and another example of how our education system has failed in teaching the younger generation to understand and respect history.

Good one Gramps! How about, without looking anything up, you tell us about your vast knowledge of Kincsem! :evil:

And that she was 54 and 0, retired undefeated, was from Hungary and ran all over Europe doesn't count. Even we uneducated ones know that. Impress us without looking info up. I'd love to credit you for adding something positive to this forum for once my friend. ;-)

[The Tin Man]

the same way that you make realistic comparisons day after day about how Zenyatta would fare on dirt against male horses over the last 40 years at a Classic distance on dirt.

Got enough qualifiers in there buddy ... I see you added "males" on dirt ... To take away the fact that she has excelled on dirt. Pretty sneaky ... Are you a politician? :evil:

[Uh-oh Bango]

Thanks, Kurenai---what an interesting story. She must have been a superhorse. She and Zenyatta seem to be soul mates in the prima donna department. I must have my stout. I must have my cat. I must have my bouquet of flowers. I must have my "public."

The great ones know it, don't they? They know exactly who they are.

[Miss Woodford]

Germany, France, Brazil ... Wherever in the world of 1800's horse racing. How confident are you in their statistics Dustino?

In all honesty ... I have NO idea if Kincsem was better than Zenyatta or even the best horse ever. How could I possibly know? I don't know a single horse she beat ... Do you Dustino? Just curious. If your answer is no, then how can you proclaim her greatness when you have no idea who she beat?
At age 2 (1876) - 10 starts - 10 wins

21-Jun GER-Berlin Ertes Criterium 1000m (5f)
KINCSEM (118 lb) - Boreas - Alpenstock 4 lengths

02-Jul GER-Hannover Vergleichspreis 1000m (5f)
KINCSEM (118 lb) - Hamburg - Double Zero 1 length

09-Jul GER-Hamburg Hamburger Criterium 950m (~4½f)
KINCSEM (124 lb) - Adelaide - Hamburg 1½ lengths

29-Jul GER-Bad Doberan Erinnerungs Rennen 947m (~4½f)
KINCSEM (129 lb)- Blucher - Miss Harriet 1½ lengths

20-Aug GER-Frankfurt Louisa Rennen 1000m (5f)
KINCSEM (128 lb) - Regimenstochter 10 lengths

31-Aug GER-Baden-Baden Zukunfstpreis 1000m (5f)
KINCSEM (123 lb) - Criterium - Miss Harriet distance

02-Oct HUN-Sopron Polgárok Dija 1200m (6f)
KINCSEM (114 lb)- Little Luder - Der Landgraf distance

15-Oct HUN-Budapest Ketévesek Versenye 948m (~4½f)
KINCSEM (124 lb) - Csalogany - Little Luder ½ length

22-Oct AUT-Vienna Kladruber Preis 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (121 lb) - Der Landgraf - Hamburg 10 lengths

29-Oct CZE-Prague Kladruber Criterium 1400m (7f)
KINCSEM (123 lb) - Criterium - Hilda distance



At age 3 (1877) 17 starts - 17 wins

27-Apr HUN-Pozsony Trial Stakes 1800m (9f)
KINCSEM (115½ lb)- Blucher - Erbprinz 1 length

06-May HUN-Budapest Egyesult Nemzeti Dij 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (114½ lb)- Camillo - Csalogány distance

08-May HUN-Budapest Hafazi Dij 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (114½ lb)- Bimbó - Légyott 1½ lengths

21-May AUT-Vienna Austrian Derby 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (119 lb)- Tallós - Pfeil distance

24-May AUT-Vienna Trial Stakes 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (125 lb)- V Secko Jedno - Hamburg 2 lengths

27-May AUT-Vienna Kaiserspreis Erster Classe 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (110 lb)- Hírnök - Talisman 10 lengths

24-Jun GER-Hannover Grosser Preis von Hannover 3000m (15f)
KINCSEM (123 lb)- Konotoppa - Double Zero 6 lengths

09-Jul GER-Hamburg Renard Rennen 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (121 lb)- Pirat - Konotoppa 4 lengths

02-Sep GER-Baden-Baden Grosser Preis von Baden 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (112 lb)- Konotoppa - Mambrin 3 lengths

08-Sep GER-Frankfurt Waldchens Preis 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (121 lb)- Pfeil - Schnell 10 lengths

29-Sep HUN-Sopron Allami Dij (open stakes) 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (130 lb)- Prince Grégoire 3 lengths

30-Sep HUN-Sopron Allami Dij (open stakes) 2000m (10f)
KINCSEM (114½ lb)- Blankensee 1 length

07-Oct HUN-Budapest Pesti St. Leger 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (114½ lb)- Prince Giles the First - Lörincz 10 lengths

10-Oct HUN-Budapest Kancadij (Oaks) 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (133 lb)- Konotoppa - Erzsi 3 lengths

14-Oct AUT-Vienna Freudenauer Preis 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (133 lb) walk-over

21-Oct CZE-Prague Kaiserspreis Dritter Classe 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (135 lb)- Prince Giles the First - Héléne 1 length

23-Oct CZE-Prague Kaiserspreis Zwetter Classe 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (134 lb) walk-over



At age 4 (1878) 15 starts - 15 wins

22-Apr AUT-Vienna Eröffnungs Rennen 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (144 lb)- Wold Rover - Achilles 2 lengths

25-Apr AUT-Vienna Prater Preis 2000m (10f)
KINCSEM (148½ lb)- Oroszvár - Tharak 3 lengths

05-May HUN-Pozsony Allami Dij (open stakes) 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (152 lb)- Prince Giles the First 5 lengths

14-May HUN-Budapest Másodosztályú Allami Dij 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (148½ lb)- Prince Giles the First - Gondolat 5 lengths

16-May HUN-Budapest Kisberi Dij 2000m (10f)
KINCSEM (153 lb)- Prince Giles the First 3 lengths

19-May HUN-Budapest Elsö Osztályú Allami-Dij 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (153 lb)- Altona - Konotoppa distance

26-May AUT-Vienna Staatspreis Zweiter Classe 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (153 lb)- Erzsi - Rococo 1 length

28-May AUT-Vienna Trial Stakes 1600m (8f)
KINCSEM (143 lb)- Prince Giles the First - Mlle Buccaneer distance

30-May AUT-Vienna Staatspreis Erster Classe 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (153 lb)- Rococo - Herodes 5 lengths

01-Aug ENG-Goodwood The Goodwood Cup 4000m (2½ miles)
KINCSEM (119 lb)- Pageant - Lady Golightly 2 lengths

18-Aug FRA-Deauville Grand Prix de Deauville 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (135 lb)- Fontainebleu - Cift ½ length

09-Sep GER-Baden-Baden Grosser Preis von Baden 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (137½ lb)- PRINCE GILES THE FIRST (122 lbs) - Purple Dead-Heat

29-Sep HUN-Sopron Allami Dij (open stakes) 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (152 lb)- Lörincz distance

20-Oct HUN-Budapest Ritter Dij 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (134 lb) walk-over

22-Oct HUN-Budapest Kanca-dij 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (148½ lb)- Altona ½ length



At age 5 (1879) 12 starts - 12 wins

28-Apr HUN-Pozsony Alami Dij (open stakes) 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (158 lb)- Tallós - Myrtle 8 lengths

04-May HUN-Budapest Gróf Károlyi Dij 3600m (18f)
KINCSEM (136 lb) walk-over

06-May HUN-Budapest Osztályú Allami Dij 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (160½ lb)- Nil Desperandum - Tallér 2 lengths

08-May HUN-Budapest Osztályú Allami Dij 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (168 lb)- Harry Hall - Clarisse 2 lengths

18-May AUT-Vienna Staatspreis Zweiter Classe 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (159½ lb)- Prince Giles the First 10 lengths

20-May AUT-Vienna Staatspreis Erster Classe 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (160½ lb)- Bolygó - Prince Giles the First 2 lengths

17-Jun GER-Berlin Silberner Schild Ks. Wilhelm I 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (160½ lb)- Altona - Vitus 3 lengths

25-Aug GER-Frankfurt Ehrenpreis Landgrafen von Hessen 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (139 lb)- Blue Rock - Little Digby 4 lengths

02-Sep GER-Baden-Baden Grosser Preis von Baden 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (141 lb)- Kunstlerin - Hessenpreis 3/4 length

29-Sep HUN-Sopron Allami-Dij (open stakes) 3200m (16f)
KINCSEM (158 lb) walk-over

19-Oct HUN-Budapest Ritter Dij 2800m (14f)
KINCSEM (139 lb) walk-over

21-Oct HUN-Budapest Kanca-dij 2400m (12f)
KINCSEM (159½ lb)- Ilona - Dagmar 10 lengths

Just looking at that she beat a German Oaks winner, two Germany Derby winners, a Brighton/Chester/Doncaster Cup winner, a French 2000 Guineas winner, and a Yorkshire Oaks winner. And that's just what I can glean from Pedigree Query.

[The Tin Man]

One thing I can certainly give you is that she could certainly win at ANY distance and obviously traveled extremely well. That in and of itself is very impressive. As far as competition, regardless of what races some of her defeated won, I have no idea how tough the competition was that they defeated ... Nor do I have any idea how that competition would have fared against today's horses.

I'm sure she was the greatest of her era, but how her greatness would have translated were she running against today's stars, I have no idea. We're talking over 100 years.

Would Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb have been the greatest players in baseball were they playing in today's game? Who the heck knows? Different eras, different competition, advancements, etc ... No way of knowing.

But what we DO know is that they were the greatest players of their era ... As Kincsem obviously was the greatest racehorse of hers.

[Happy Endings]

It isn't the Hungarian statistics that puts her on the official record books. She was a celebrity and raced throughout Europe, so we have records of her form from the UK and French racing publications, too. And her Goodwood Cup win made news in the US, as did the news of her retirement.
An article from the New York Times, August 1878
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9C00E7DB143EE63BBC4A53DFBE668383669FDE

Well that was an interesting article. It refers to Kincsem repeatedly as a HE.
Even describes him at the bottom thusly: "ch. m. Kincsem, 4 years"
His opposition: "b. g. Pageant, aged" and "b. f. Lady Golightly, 4 years"
It appears they were making due note of the sex of the participants in the race. Doesn't seem like a casual mistake.

[Rick1323]

While in Vegas last week, I saw Mike Smith being interviewed on a local TV station. I have no doubt Mike thinks Zenyatta is the best horse he ever rode.

Keep in mind this is not a 20 something Smith, not even close to a 30 something version. This is a jock who has been at the very top of the game. He has riden some really tough customers over the years. He has a perspective that comes from a lot of rides.

His emotions surrounding her are legit. The weight he will be carrying is enormous, I hope he is still up to one last good ride. I for one don't expect him to circle. I think he will cut the corner if he possibly can. He saved some ground last year, I expect a similar ride.

[Secretariat Forever]

A disgraceful post, and another example of how our education system has failed in teaching the younger generation to understand and respect history.


Yes, you've made it pretty clear you hate woman and dispise those younger than you. We get it.


I can't "respect" facts about history that aren't necessarily all there with hard proof.

[Miss Woodford]

Well that was an interesting article. It refers to Kincsem repeatedly as a HE.
Even describes him at the bottom thusly: "ch. m. Kincsem, 4 years"
His opposition: "b. g. Pageant, aged" and "b. f. Lady Golightly, 4 years"
It appears they were making due note of the sex of the participants in the race. Doesn't seem like a casual mistake.
I'll forgive the NYT for making that mistake in the commentary on a foreign horse race.

Here's the article from the Daily Telegraph of London about the race.

UNVANQUISHED HUNGARIAN MARE
WINS AT GOODWOOD

A tamer Goodwood Cup has never been known, as of the nine coloured on the card, only three went to post. Betting at the outset had been 7-to-4 against Pageant and 3-to-1 each against Kincsem and Lady Golightly; but when the fact became known that they alone would form the field, layers reduced the prices 5-to-4 against Pageant and 2-to-1 against Lady Golightly, the Hungarian mare being the worst favoured at 3-to-1 (offered freely). She was not liked when stripped, good judges pronouncing her too lengthy, but she looked very hard and well.

Pageant settled down with the lead a couple of lengths in advance of Lord Falmouth's mare, the foreigner lying off. In this way they ran round the loop, but about six furlongs from home Kincsem began to close up, and as Archer was hard at work on Lady Golightly before entering the straight, the contest reduced to a match.

Half-way down the hill, 10-to-1 was freely offered on Pageant, on whom Cannon was sitting still, whilst Madden was asking Kincsem, and the Kingsclere horse appeared to be having it all his own way. The mare however stuck to her work and when finally called upon Pageant proved unequal to the effort of drawing away, Kincsem, amidst the cheering of the fielders, won in a canter by two lengths. She is obviously a rare animal, and little need be said to recommend her further than that she has now won 37 consecutive races.

Mr. E. Blaskovitz purchased her at the break-up of Prince Esterhazy's stud, and has been amply repaid by her unprecedented success. Her stamina is undoubtedly her strong point, and in a fast-run race she would have won by a hundred yards.

[StarGirl11]

Holy moley...the dapples go up her neck!???

In this video she stops at one point while the camera is pretty close and it looks like the dappling extends most of the way up her neck.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/videos/watch/5BCC2CE6-8C0F-4154-B141-F304812C98EA

The photo of her in the SI issue makes it look like her dapples may go all the way up her neck.

[Kurenai]

As far as competition, regardless of what races some of her defeated won, I have no idea how tough the competition was that they defeated ... Nor do I have any idea how that competition would have fared against today's horses.

Back in that day Austrian/Hungarian racing did have as good horses as England/France. Horse racing was HUGE back then. As I said before: she run against the BEST that other countries had to offer at that time.

Diminishing Kincsem's accomplishments would be like saying "oh I don't know about Man O'War, whom did he beat and how would those horses fared against today's horses, it's been 90 years ago."

I am NOT arguing that Zenyatta isn't one of the best female horses of all time. But THE best? C'mon, there's Goldi, there's Zarkava, Makybe Diva etc etc. One doesn't even have to look back so far in years! Unless of course you are only talking US horses. I would say she's the best female in the US EVER if she can win this (and yes many people will disagree about that too). Yet I still believe Secretariat would run circles around her on his best day. She wouldn't even have him as a target in front of her, cause he would cross the finish line while she is still in the last turn. I would rank her amongst the top 25 US thoroughbreds of all time though.

I'm a big Zenyatta fan but I won't forget the horses who run before her. :)

[Uh-oh Bango]

Well I thank Kurenai and Miss Woodford for educating me on Kincsem. I knew about her, but really, after seeing her record, she's left me gobsmacked.

There have been great horses in our past. It's impossible to rank them (look what a hash Bloodhorse did of it).

We've got one of the best race horses ever right now. Let's enjoy her, as we did Rachel last year. Right now I'm rereading Nack's SECRETARIAT, and I have to say I get the same feeling for Zenyatta that I felt back when Secretariat was running.

This is a difficult, uncertain, miserable time right now. There's one way I can compare Zen to Secretariat and Seabiscuit - she raises my spirits like nothing else.

[The Tin Man]

Back in that day Austrian/Hungarian racing did have as good horses as England/France. Horse racing was HUGE back then. As I said before: she run against the BEST that other countries had to offer at that time.

Diminishing Kincsem's accomplishments would be like saying "oh I don't know about Man O'War, whom did he beat and how would those horses fared against today's horses, it's been 90 years ago."

I am NOT arguing that Zenyatta isn't one of the best female horses of all time. But THE best? C'mon, there's Goldi, there's Zarkava, Makybe Diva etc etc. One doesn't even have to look back so far in years! Unless of course you are only talking US horses. I would say she's the best female in the US EVER if she can win this (and yes many people will disagree about that too). Yet I still believe Secretariat would run circles around her on his best day. She wouldn't even have him as a target in front of her, cause he would cross the finish line while she is still in the last turn. I would rank her amongst the top 25 US thoroughbreds of all time though.

I'm a big Zenyatta fan but I won't forget the horses who run before her. :)

Yeah Kurenai ... My only claim is for her possibly nbeing the greatest U.S. FEMALE ever ...

But as far as Secretariat beating her by the 80 lengths or so you predict ... No chance at all of that happening on his BESt day. I think you exagerrated just a bit there. ;-)

In the hypothetical showdown, he just might win ... But by a full stretch run? Methinks you exagerrate a wee bit there. She may not be the best horse ever, but only a pack mule would finish a race healthy and lose by 80 lengths(or however many lengths make up an entire stretch run). ;-)

Now I'm curious ... Does anyone have an idea of about how many lengths make up your standard stretch run? Just for curiosity's sake?

[The Tin Man]

Well I thank Kurenai and Miss Woodford for educating me on Kincsem. I knew about her, but really, after seeing her record, she's left me gobsmacked.

There have been great horses in our past. It's impossible to rank them (look what a hash Bloodhorse did of it).

We've got one of the best race horses ever right now. Let's enjoy her, as we did Rachel last year. Right now I'm rereading Nack's SECRETARIAT, and I have to say I get the same feeling for Zenyatta that I felt back when Secretariat was running.

This is a difficult, uncertain, miserable time right now. There's one way I can compare Zen to Secretariat and Seabiscuit - she raises my spirits like nothing else.

Beautifully stated UOB ... I concur wholeheartedly! :)

[Kurenai]

Haha yeah I did exaggerate, but you get my point, right? He was so far in front of the field in his Belmont, so I don't think she even would have recognized him as a "target", since she always starts to run around the turn.

[Uh-oh Bango]

Haha yeah I did exaggerate, but you get my point, right? He was so far in front of the field in his Belmont, so I don't think she even would have recognized him as a "target", since she always starts to run around the turn.

EUREKA!!!!! Kurenai, you've found a way to beat this mare. All we need is another super horse who can open up 31 lengths on her!

[Miss Woodford]

We also have to make a distinction between the best (fastest) racehorse and the most accomplished racehorse. When ranking racehorses from different generations you can't just say "who would beat who?" because in that case you shortchange horses like Citation, Exterminator, Equipoise, even Seabiscuit. Ghostzapper could probably crush all of the aformentioned horses, but I'd be hesitant to rank him over them. Same goes for comparing Zenyatta to Miss Woodford, Lady's Secret, Shuvee, Firenzi, Imp, and Gallorette. With the obvious exception of Miss Woodford, those horses all lost more races than they won. So it makes more sense to compare the magnitude of careers rather than the perceived talent of the horses themselves. In which case Kincsem and Zenyatta obviously stand out. Beyond that there's arguments to be made for many other fillies and mares.

[The Tin Man]

Haha yeah I did exaggerate, but you get my point, right? He was so far in front of the field in his Belmont, so I don't think she even would have recognized him as a "target", since she always starts to run around the turn.

I figured ... ;-)

I think you and I BOTH know they'd quicken her pace, if need be, to keep her from being a gazillion lengths behind. They keep her closer when they need to.

Not debating that she would beat him. Truth to tell, I haven't even thought about it ... Nor will I. But hypothetically, they'd alter her style if needed don't you think?

Gotta keep a target in sight in order to aim for it. ;-)

[a Flying Brick]

Someone sent this to me thought I would pass it on. 60 Minutes on Zenyatta.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_162-20021187-10391709.html?tag=component.0

[Ezariah]

After she went back in the second time and you, I and the others left, I walked down to check to see how the WP horses were settling in, then left the track. I drove past where Zen had been grazing and there was still 3 cars and about a half dozen people standing near the fence talking. I'm not sure if they were waiting to see if she was coming back out, but it's possible.


The cool thing was that people would drive by and see people standing around photographing this horse, and they'd pull over and get out to see Zenyatta. Even some folks who live across the street came over to see her .. they all had to peek through the chain link fence. At one point, there might have been about six cars pulled over so maybe 6-8 people standing on the street side of the fence. She did wander over to them too. It's a little tough to get a shot through chain link, but it can be done. :-)

[Slewbopper]

The trend toward speed had already started in Kincsem's day. In 1823, American Eclipse beat Henry in three 4 mile heats (12 miles of racing) in America's first great sporting event. The Goodwood article from the 1878 NY Times had Kincsem winning one heat at 2 1/2 miles. The way things are going, the Classic will be a mile in 50 more years. Hehehe

[GinTalking]

Haha yeah I did exaggerate, but you get my point, right? He was so far in front of the field in his Belmont, so I don't think she even would have recognized him as a "target", since she always starts to run around the turn.

I certainly think this scenario has some merit. Not by the imaginary 80 lengths, of course. But just look to her works and that they usually have a target in place for her to lock on. Since her running style takes her some 10-15 lengths out of it, and Secretariat could put on that move whenever it was needed, he'd have the upper hand in that kind of a match up.

It's a shame that common sense is left in a ditch when it comes to this horse. I mean, seriously.

As far as being the female of all time, I have to think she's already gotten that title. In fact, who IS the highest ranked (generally speaking) female to date? I pay very little attention to that kind of thing so I haven't a clue who it would be.

But all-time is another story. IF she'd raced several more times against males, or done at least a little more traveling, I think there'd be no doubt, even before the BC. As it is, her connections have made it difficult to get a real gauge on her. I hope she wins on Saturday because after a while, there won't be all this wringing of hands ...

but if she loses, I hope it's not a flukey horse who does it. Yesterday, a few of us were discussing the possiblities and we kind of decided that a First Dude/Fly Down exacta would really send everyone into a raging tizzy. LOL It's happened before though .. Skywalker upset the strong Older Males. Arcangues did the same thing. Volponi was an upset, but he didn't have the strength behind him. This is a strong field. If she wins this, she's certainly in the top 5 of all-time greats. But I still think if they'd been a bit more aggressive with her, she'd have that top spot NOW, instead of having to wait until Saturday night to even rethink the situation.

Polls are odd and I'd bet that if you asked the same people who voted for all-time greats a second time, they'd have a lot of horses in different positions. It's like they say on that "Top 100 NFL players" list .... what really is the difference between number 5 and number 35? Probably not a lot. Vote a second time, and 5 drops to 7, and 35 might become 29. At this level, it's a very tough call.

Sorry for the reality check, but that's the way I am about most things and I guess if I've made it this long thinking like that, it's not likely I will change. ;-)

[MonmouthGuy]

I can't "respect" facts about history that aren't necessarily all there with hard proof.


Ignorance is bliss.

[Slewbopper]

Gin .....Ruffian is the highest female at 35 followed by Busher at 40, Gallorette at 45, PE at 48, Dahlia at 50, and Susan's Girl at 51.

[Happy Endings]

That list is of the top 100 horses of the 20th Century, no? They left off horses of the 19th Century, so it is not a list of the best of all time. Even Man O War wasn't given that distinction, so I don't really see the point of discussing it in terms of Zenyatta. We are in a new Century now. Zenyatta may well turn out to be the best of the 21st Century. She certainly is so far. I'd settle for that.

However, regardless where Bloodhorse ranks her...and keep in mind that not everyone on this planet cares what Bloodhorse publishes...if Zenyatta wins on Saturday and retires 20-0, there is no doubt in my mind that she will become the Best KNOWN horse of all time. The story of an undefeated mare who beat males in the biggest race of the year two years in a row and won all her races coming from the back of the pack in exciting fashion is the kind of stuff that legends are made of. So it doesn't matter what Bloodhorse thinks or what anyone on here thinks. History will take care of itself. If she wins, she will become a legend. Plain and simple. I'd rather see her name on the lips of tens of millions of people from all walks of life than worry about where she is ranked by a marginalized industry.

[Blue Jeans]

I would have enjoyed the article more had the writer used "horde" instead of "hoard."

Does the BH edit its articles before the writers post them for public view? It doesn't seem like it lately. Ok, that's my grammar police commentary for the day. :evil:

Apparently not. Just be glad the word wasn't spelled with a "w". They use that "w" word a lot in CA. Ask Meg Whitman, huh? :evil:

[Horse's Rear]

Sorry for the reality check, but that's the way I am about most things and I guess if I've made it this long thinking like that, it's not likely I will change. ;-)
If that mish-mash of inconsistencies constitutes reality, you need to drink more or less.

[second_glance]

From Mike Smith's ESPN blog:

I've got a business manager, a publicity manager and a production crew in tow. They need to invent a new word for this kind of hectic.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5753212/hectic

[islandgirl45]

Here's the latest blog from Mike Smith, published Tuesday.

Let's do it one more time

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5757548/let-do-one-more-time

[Slewbopper]

That list is of the top 100 horses of the 20th Century, no? They left off horses of the 19th Century, so it is not a list of the best of all time. Even Man O War wasn't given that distinction, so I don't really see the point of discussing it in terms of Zenyatta. We are in a new Century now. Zenyatta may well turn out to be the best of the 21st Century. She certainly is so far. I'd settle for that.

However, regardless where Bloodhorse ranks her...and keep in mind that not everyone on this planet cares what Bloodhorse publishes...if Zenyatta wins on Saturday and retires 20-0, there is no doubt in my mind that she will become the Best KNOWN horse of all time. The story of an undefeated mare who beat males in the biggest race of the year two years in a row and won all her races coming from the back of the pack in exciting fashion is the kind of stuff that legends are made of. So it doesn't matter what Bloodhorse thinks or what anyone on here thinks. History will take care of itself. If she wins, she will become a legend. Plain and simple. I'd rather see her name on the lips of tens of millions of people from all walks of life than worry about where she is ranked by a marginalized industry.

How can I be polite when responding to this ludicrous sentence? Secretariat is far and away the best known horse of anyone alive today in America. I would guess that Man O War and Seabiscuit would be 2 and 2A.

I would give odds that Diana Taurasi is known by 5 times more people than Zenyatta? Do you know who she is?

[Spahny]

Here's the latest blog from Mike Smith, published Tuesday.

Let's do it one more time

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5757548/let-do-one-more-time

Mike has 2 more live mounts on Saturday in Jaycinto and Proviso to think about.

[islandgirl45]

Mike has 2 more live mounts on Saturday in Jaycinto and Proviso to think about.

As well as (perhaps a little less live) mounts on Mine That Bird and Izshelegal.:)

[Happy Endings]

How can I be polite when responding to this ludicrous sentence? Secretariat is far and away the best known horse of anyone alive today in America. I would guess that Man O War and Seabiscuit would be 2 and 2A.

I would give odds that Diana Taurasi is known by 5 times more people than Zenyatta? Do you know who she is?

You are too hopelessly mired in this marginal industry to have a clue. Should Zenyatta win this Saturday, the landscape will change considerably.

And with your mention of Seabiscuit as third best known you unwittingly support my comment. Why is he third best known over Kelso or others in the top 10? Because of the movie? Exactly the reason I think Zenyatta will be so well known. Because of her story.

I am not so concerned about those just alive today. I thinking of those who come after us. Who will they remember most? That type of legacy is far more important.

[breezing]

big girl looked good this morning taking a little jog around the track........i think steve willard gave up trying to hold her back......was doing a good job and then with one stride she was off. it was funny watch people run up to the rail to see her :)

[Secretariat Forever]

Zenyatta now has 32,749 fans on facebook. Just the other day she had a little over 30,000. So about 2,000 more fans within a few days!

[Secretariat Forever]

big girl looked good this morning taking a little jog around the track........i think steve willard gave up trying to hold her back......was doing a good job and then with one stride she was off. it was funny watch people run up to the rail to see her :)

thanks! Hopefully we'll see some photos up!

[Secretariat Forever]

278
Floating over the Churchill track.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=459599963330&set=a.111163953330.95867.100801093330&pid=5334221&id=100801093330


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyS0ka4ZKgI

[islandgirl45]

big girl looked good this morning taking a little jog around the track........i think steve willard gave up trying to hold her back......was doing a good job and then with one stride she was off. it was funny watch people run up to the rail to see her :)

And to see other exercise riders turn around in their saddles to see her as she came up behind them.:)

[Slewbopper]

[QUOTE=Happy Endings;131364]You are too hopelessly mired in this marginal industry to have a clue. Should Zenyatta win this Saturday, the landscape will change considerably.

QUOTE]

You said it, not me. Horse racing is now a marginal industry. Joe the Plumber knows who Smarty Jones, Barbaro, and Big Brown is. Why? Because only horses that are vying for a TC are known to the general public. He does not know who Zenyatta is and will not know even if she wins on Saturday.

You didn't answer my question about who Diana Taurasi is. No googling. I said she is known by 5 times more people than Zenyatta

MG....you are right...fish in a barrel

[drjohnh]

Here's the latest blog from Mike Smith, published Tuesday.

Let's do it one more time

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5757548/let-do-one-more-time

interesting that he is talking about kickback, as that is a worry for me. she didn't like the kickback at oaklawn this year according to mike and there were only a few horses in front of her in that race.

[Secretariat Forever]

interesting that he is talking about kickback, as that is a worry for me. she didn't like the kickback at oaklawn this year according to mike and there were only a few horses in front of her in that race.

She might not have liked it. But she still ran like it wasn't a problem...that's the important part. She's run and won twice on dirt...which means twice she's handled the kickback without a problem.

Which brings me to this...Smith did say she didn't like the kickback at Oaklawn which is why he began to move her closer earlier than usual, leading to two of her largest margins of victory. Now add in the longer Churchill stretch.


Just something for you handicappers to look at.

[drjohnh]

i am thinking that she is likely to use up more energy running in a propped position than she would use just galloping along and that she is likely to need it more in this race.
i can already tell it is going to be a lot more difficult to stop worrying about her race when i am not there watching her in the mornings as i have been the last two years!

[Slewbopper]

She might not have liked it. But she still ran like it wasn't a problem...that's the important part. She's run and won twice on dirt...which means twice she's handled the kickback without a problem.

Which brings me to this...Smith did say she didn't like the kickback at Oaklawn which is why he began to move her closer earlier than usual, leading to two of her largest margins of victory. Now add in the longer Churchill stretch.


Just something for you handicappers to look at.

Trevor: And down the stretch it is Swain 18 wide and Zenyatta scraping the paint on the grandstand rail......hahaha

Seriously....she will take the Calvin route and bull her way through at some point turning for home. Just like last year, Mikey ain't going to be Mr. Timid in this race.

[Songofthesword]

She is about to school in a few mintues

[Songofthesword]

Too cute, she was doing her little dance like she was getting ready to race

[raven]

she looks great!

[Uh-oh Bango]

As well as (perhaps a little less live) mounts on Mine That Bird and Izshelegal.:)

Hey! Stableboy likes her chances!

[Uh-oh Bango]

And with your mention of Seabiscuit as third best known you unwittingly support my comment. Why is he third best known over Kelso or others in the top 10? Because of the movie? Exactly the reason I think Zenyatta will be so well known. Because of her story.



Which leads me to think that there will be a movie.

[second_glance]

A little bit of video from her tour of the track this morning:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/racing/video.aspx

The video that comes up in the box after the page loads is of her.

[Secretariat Forever]

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59670/all-zenyatta-all-the-time-at-churchill




"She did fine," Shirreffs said with big smile on his face. "She seems very happy and really got over the track good."

"She’s terrific," added Willard. "She couldn’t be training any better. She loves the dirt. I knew it two years ago, and I knew it going into Hot Springs (for the Apple Blossom at Oaklawn Park). She drives off it. It doesn’t have the trampoline effect like the synthetics. The crowd was great. They were mostly quiet, a couple yelled, but for the most part very accommodating."

[second_glance]

7' x 40' banner hanging in downtown Louisville -- this is the one the fans signed out at SA.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=446791921909&set=a.126818326909.115149.51125691909

[The Tin Man]

7' x 40' banner hanging in downtown Louisville -- this is the one the fans signed out at SA.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=446791921909&set=a.126818326909.115149.51125691909

Cool! I signed it. Right between the 2 "O's" in "Good" ... I may not have been able to get there, but at least my ink did! :becky:

[Slewbopper]

Cool! I signed it. Right between the 2 "O's" in "Good" ... I may not have been able to get there, but at least my ink did! :becky:

Cool Tinny..... I am looking to bet against her. but you know what? On more than a few occasions I have bet on one horse and rooted another one home. Coastal over Bid comes to mind. Money doesn't matter when you are dealing with what should be.

BTW....John Henry does not apply. I never ever bet against him. Only a fool would have done that.

[Happy Endings]

[QUOTE=Happy Endings;131364]You are too hopelessly mired in this marginal industry to have a clue. Should Zenyatta win this Saturday, the landscape will change considerably.

QUOTE]

You said it, not me. Horse racing is now a marginal industry. Joe the Plumber knows who Smarty Jones, Barbaro, and Big Brown is. Why? Because only horses that are vying for a TC are known to the general public. He does not know who Zenyatta is and will not know even if she wins on Saturday.

You didn't answer my question about who Diana Taurasi is. No googling. I said she is known by 5 times more people than Zenyatta

MG....you are right...fish in a barrel

Joe the Plumber doesn't have a clue about Big Brown. Smarty Jones and Barbaro, maybe, but mostly due to their STORIES. Barbaro's well publicized injury, and Smarty Jones trainer dying, Smarty himself almost killing him self by bashing his head, and oh, yeah that little bit of trivia about being UNDEFEATED going into the TC series. Does he know the names of Giacomo, or Mine that Bird, or Street Sense, or even Super Saver?
Undefeated horses draw attention, just like no-hitters in baseball, or undefeated teams. Everybody likes a winner.

And I see you have no answer regarding Seabiscuit. I figured as much.

Hey, I don't feel compelled to make you agree with me. I really don't care if you do. I'm happy to just sit back and let time prove me right. If she wins Saturday, just watch and remember who told you so.

Yeah.

[Secretariat Forever]

Cool! I signed it. Right between the 2 "O's" in "Good" ... I may not have been able to get there, but at least my ink did! :becky:


LOL!!

[EquineAnne]

Cool Tinny..... I am looking to bet against her. but you know what? On more than a few occasions I have bet on one horse and rooted another one home. Coastal over Bid comes to mind. Money doesn't matter when you are dealing with what should be.

BTW....John Henry does not apply. I never ever bet against him. Only a fool would have done that.

I think Zen is the same. Only a fool will bet against her.

[The Tin Man]

Cool Tinny..... I am looking to bet against her. but you know what? On more than a few occasions I have bet on one horse and rooted another one home.

I've done it too Bopper. I've bet with and against Zenny a few times in her races.

It's kind of an IF I'm gonna be bummed out, then at least making some money will ease the disappointment move.

But regardless of whether I'd have made more by her loss or not, I've always WANTED her to win.

No "reasonable" amount of money is worth her losing to me. But sometimes I put covers against her. Last year I had a side cover bet with GIio Ponti against her. I'm thinking of maybe covering with Haynesfield, QR, Lucky or Balme this time too. But I WILL single her in my trifecta, so I can load up behind her. My coveres would only be enough to pay for my trifecta cost should she somehow not win.

[The Tin Man]

I think Zen is the same. Only a fool will bet against her.

Agreed ... I do covers sometimes just in case, but I NEVER leave her out of my MAIN bet.

She's raced 19 times and never lost. Until she loses, how could one bet against her. She hasn't proven she knows what losing is.

[Happy Endings]

Which leads me to think that there will be a movie.

Yeah, and we may be surprised how soon it happens if she wins on Saturday.

[The Tin Man]

Yeah, and we may be surprised how soon it happens if she wins on Saturday.

I 'm so sure a movie will be forthcoming, but if it were to be ... I'd hope they'd get right on it ... So she could playe herself! How awesome would that be?

[Citation07]

She looks amazing. Like she's about ready to jump out of her skin.

[second_glance]

Haskin on Z's arrival:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59674/haskins-bc-report-hello-zenyatta

[Happy Endings]

Haskin on Z's arrival:

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/59674/haskins-bc-report-hello-zenyatta

Nice article. I wish he would have talked more about how he thinks she looks like he did in the section about Lucky. I value his impressions on the condition of horses. A lot of people have said she looks great. I'd like to hear what he thinks. Maybe he'll address that in his next installment.

[Slewbopper]

She is about to school in a few mintues

School? She is 6. She should be teaching others at this point.

[Diver52]

No movie for one reason. Who would play Zenyatta? With all due regard to Secretariat, its a lot easier to find a muscular good-sized chestnut colt (or two or three or four) than to find a 17.2 Amazon like Zenny. And as her unreplaceable charisma is a huge part of her appeal, not going to happen.

The only thing I could see would be maybe using Mike Smith's story--jazzing it up a bit, with his broken back, his struggle to get back to the top, the strain on his relationship with Chantal, etc.

[Uh-oh Bango]

I 'm so sure a movie will be forthcoming, but if it were to be ... I'd hope they'd get right on it ... So she could playe herself! How awesome would that be?

Heck, she could star in her own reality show. They could parade the horses in front of her and she could paw at the one she thinks will win. Kind of a cross between American Idol and Horsewives of Hollywood Park.

[Uh-oh Bango]

Nice article. I wish he would have talked more about how he thinks she looks like he did in the section about Lucky. I value his impressions on the condition of horses. A lot of people have said she looks great. I'd like to hear what he thinks. Maybe he'll address that in his next installment.

Haskin's description would be nice, but I think his photos (and everyone else's) pretty much tell us everything we need to know about how she's coming into this race. The way she tries to pull her exercise rider's arms off, parades around like a runway model, strikes poses, that conformation and those dapples. If you look up "imposing" in the dictionary, you'll see a picture of Zen. I know if I were another horse, I wouldn't want to face her.

[Man o' Taz]

Which leads me to think that there will be a movie.

I hope its realistic...

Told in the Hillenbrand mold...

The best thing would be for it to be done 20 years from now...allow some separation from actual events...

Make it a major motion picture and not a TV movie... :)

[islandgirl45]

Nice article. I wish he would have talked more about how he thinks she looks like he did in the section about Lucky. I value his impressions on the condition of horses. A lot of people have said she looks great. I'd like to hear what he thinks. Maybe he'll address that in his next installment.

I'd love to see some current pictures of the older, bigger Lucky 2.0. Whenever you read articles about him they usually run the photo from the Preakness or Haskell.

[Man o' Taz]

Taz my friend ... You missed my point. ;-)

My point is that LAST year's group was a tougher group than THIS year's Classic group IMHO. I can't see how the group she faces this year goes on to accomplish as much as last year's group did in the following year. Last year's group was a damn good group ... This year's group is lesser IMHO ...

Hence ... I'm more confident in her ability to win The Classic this year than I was last year ... And I singled her in my trifecta last year ... So guess what I'm gonna do this year? :evil:

And if she loses ... Oh well ... I wouldn't lose much because I singled her. But singling her allows me to backload my trifecta heavily so I'll likely hit it if she wins.

I feel the competition is MUCH more heated for 2nd and 3rd this year than it will be for first. So I'll take my chances for better back end coverage.

I expect she'll win ... But I could see scenarios where Haynesfield, QR, Lucky or Blame could too ... But I fear that group less than I feared last year's. :)

Ah, so its not how a horse is performing in the year that she races them, its how they perform the next year when she doesn't face them...

Thanks for that clarification...it explains everything. ;)

I tend to evaluate horses based upon the competition they face coming into a race, not the following year...but we all have our ways of evaluating horses...

She faced 11 last year...she faces 11 this year...

The best BSF by a horse she faced last year coming into the race was the 111 by Summer Bird in the JCGC.

This year facing Quality Road she will be facing a horse that put in the highest BSF of the year....a 121.

There was more experience at 10 furlongs in last year's race, but 9 horses in the race have run at the distance...2 have won at it on dirt...3 others have had figures of 107 or higher. So, I think there is much more speed in this race than in last year's.

There is much more experience on the Churchill Downs track and surface than there was at Santa Anita...

Blame has a Grade I win on the surface. Only Einstein had a Grade I win over Santa Anita. 5 other horses have run over it.

And these are dirt horses. All of these horses have won stakes races on dirt.

I think the field is just as impressive as last year.

I believe she bests this field. I do not think there is anyone who can close like she can. Someone could get loose on the front, but I believe her jock when he says he has never seen her bottom.

I think we get a pace at 23.6 -- 48 -- 1:11 -- 1:36 and come home in 2:00 or less...with Zenyatta taking it all. I think her BSF could be a 115 or better in this race.

As for fearing last year's group...on paper they looked daunting but who I expected to give her the toughest test...the Ripper, Einstein and Richard's Kid...it never materialized...and two turf horses ended up doing it... :becky:

[islandgirl45]

I have a question for WestCoast, DesertHeat or anyone else who has seen Z work or gallop. The DRF clocker at Churchill, Mike Welsch, said about Zs gallop around the track this morning....."The morning-line favorite for the Classic, she looked very strong galloping just more than a mile, during which she remained on her left lead throughout, a trait West Coast observers say is not out of the norm for the unbeaten superstar."

Is that usual for Z to stay on her left lead when she's just galloping?

[Jumron]

From Mike Smith's ESPN blog:

I've got a business manager, a publicity manager and a production crew in tow. They need to invent a new word for this kind of hectic.

http://espn.go.com/horse-racing/blog/_/name/smith_mike/id/5753212/hectic
...a Zenyattathon?:)

[Reposmoral]

I have a question for WestCoast, DesertHeat or anyone else who has seen Z work or gallop. The DRF clocker at Churchill, Mike Welsch, said about Zs gallop around the track this morning....."The morning-line favorite for the Classic, she looked very strong galloping just more than a mile, during which she remained on her left lead throughout, a trait West Coast observers say is not out of the norm for the unbeaten superstar."

Is that usual for Z to stay on her left lead when she's just galloping?


I dunno, but the video I saw that the TT put up, shows her switching leads. So I don't know what they're talking about.

The other video I saw recently of her gallop at Hollywood before her last work, also clearly showed her switching leads (more than needed, too, because she tried to bolt a few times and jumped sideways as she did it)

[Secretariat Forever]

Of all the videos I've seen of Zenyatta galloping, she's more than usually on her left lead for most of the gallop. And yes, her most recent gallops she was very strong and tried getting away from Steve a lot while switching leads back and forth. Looked like it was her way of trying to avoid him not letting her bolt. Everytime she'd try to take off a bit he'd correct her and she'd duck out one way, and the result of this was her being forced to switch leads.

Here's a few videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3BOP2KYQuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dIu1FeN9x8
the one right above you can see that Steve has to make her switch to her right lead coming out of the turn. If he didn't. It's clear her preference is to be on her left lead. Then more down the stretch she ducks out a bit and goes back to her left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VCe4VYz3Q

[Secretariat Forever]

Great article.

http://www.tsn.ca/other_sports/story/?id=339772

Long Road to Breeders Cup for Baffert, Lookin at Lucky.



"The queen is the queen," Pegram said. "I think she's the best horse. She's the real deal. I just laugh when I hear people say she's a synthetic horse. They ought to be glad she's been on synthetics."




"You just hope for a clean trip for everybody," Pegram said. "Let them duke it out."


Couldn't have said it better myself. That's what we are all hoping for!

[islandgirl45]

Of all the videos I've seen of Zenyatta galloping, she's more than usually on her left lead for most of the gallop. And yes, her most recent gallops she was very strong and tried getting away from Steve a lot while switching leads back and forth. Looked like it was her way of trying to avoid him not letting her bolt. Everytime she'd try to take off a bit he'd correct her and she'd duck out one way, and the result of this was her being forced to switch leads.

Here's a few videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3BOP2KYQuU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dIu1FeN9x8
the one right above you can see that Steve has to make her switch to her right lead coming out of the turn. If he didn't. It's clear her preference is to be on her left lead. Then more down the stretch she ducks out a bit and goes back to her left.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6VCe4VYz3Q

Six years old and she still likes to bolt and do her thing! Gotta love that spirit.:evil:

[Uh-oh Bango]

Great article.

http://www.tsn.ca/other_sports/story/?id=339772

Long Road to Breeders Cup for Baffert, Lookin at Lucky.







Couldn't have said it better myself. That's what we are all hoping for!
Enjoyed the article. They've got a sense of perspective. Love both those guys for their rueful sense of humor - considering all the stuff that happened to Lucky early on. If the Big Z doesn't win it, I'll be rooting for Lucky. If for whatever reason she doesn't come for him in the homestretch, I'll be shouting him home. He's a gutsy little guy who should have a complex by now--but doesn't.

[Secretariat Forever]

Keep the videos coming TTimes and TbredDailyNews!! :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPRsWZTsqqI
Z Schooling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWi9KhGYg_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wipD-ZzhmI8
Sting says Good Luck!

[The Tin Man]

Ah, so its not how a horse is performing in the year that she races them, its how they perform the next year when she doesn't face them...



They performed exceptionally LAST year too ... The point in pointing out they have done very well THIS year also is to blow out of the water any of the "they were on the downside" assertions ... 'Cause you know they'd be coming. Most of the horses she beat were in their prime and on top of their games, as evidenced by their continued top level performances THIS year also.

ALL of LAST year's top contenders had run at least 4 of their last 8 races at 10 furlongs or longer coming into that race ... Throwing out QR's freak 121 Beyer ... How do the rest of the Beyers between this year and last year's race compare? I think you'll find quite well ... and they were set on SYNTH too!

I agree there's more speed in THIS year's race, but what good is that speed if it can't hold at the distance?

[The Tin Man]

[QUOTE=Man o' Taz;131521]Only Einstein had a Grade I win over Santa Anita. 5 other horses have run over it.

{/QUOTE]


Wrong ... Colonel John won The Santa Anita Derby ... Which unless I'm mistaken was run at Santa Anita. ;-)

Gio Ponti also won The Frank Kilroe Handicap too at Santa Anita ... Which is a Grade 1 also Taz ... ;-)

So make that 3 of them had won Grade 1s on the Santa Anita surface ... SO much misinformation about the form of the horses coming into that race. Not just you Taz ... There are lots who just haven't researched it thoroughly enough.

Colonel John, Richard's Kid, Einstein and Awesome Gem's year high Beyers were set on SYNTH ...

Colonel John, Summer Bird, Einstein, Girolamo, Regal Ransom and Awesome Gem ran their year high Beyers in the race preceeding the Classic.

[The Tin Man]

I think the field is just as impressive as last year.

I believe she bests this field. I do not think there is anyone who can close like she can. Someone could get loose on the front, but I believe her jock when he says he has never seen her bottom.

I think we get a pace at 23.6 -- 48 -- 1:11 -- 1:36 and come home in 2:00 or less...with Zenyatta taking it all. I think her BSF could be a 115 or better in this race.

As for fearing last year's group...on paper they looked daunting but who I expected to give her the toughest test...the Ripper, Einstein and Richard's Kid...it never materialized...and two turf horses ended up doing it... :becky:

I agree with you here on everything but who the biggest threat was last year ... I thought Gio Ponti was her biggest threat and I bet him accordingly. He was the ONLY cover bet I had to protect against her possibly losing. I microscoped that race. Pretty much have it all memorized. :)

[Rick1323]

It is pretty easy to criticize her schedule. But it is hard to see how anyone else could have kept this mare so sharp and eager to run after so much time. Forget if she is as good as last year, the fact that she is still sharp and looking like a runway model is astounding.

I don't think I can bet her at 6/5 or so, but I will be rooting for one more win.

[Spahny]

It is pretty easy to criticize her schedule. But it is hard to see how anyone else could have kept this mare so sharp and eager to run after so much time. Forget if she is as good as last year, the fact that she is still sharp and looking like a runway model is astounding.

I don't think I can bet her at 6/5 or so, but I will be rooting for one more win.

Your syndicate could have singled Zenyatta and Goldikova and with a little creativity split that 1.8 million with the guy who did single her last year. Value means little if it doesn't win.

[The Tin Man]

Your syndicate could have singled Zenyatta and Goldikova and with a little creativity split that 1.8 million with the guy who did single her last year. Value means little if it doesn't win.

Precisely ... I'm singling her regardless ... Then loading up behind her. Singling her last year brought $596.00 ... Bet there are more than a few people here who didn't wanna single her at 5/2 ... They should have.

I'll single her at 4/5 or higher. This is The Breeder's Cup. The pool will be HUGE! I get a double figure horse behind her, it'll be a pretty nifty payout. I expect she'll go off in the 3/2 to 5/2 range though.

As you said Spahny ... I'd rather play the winning horse at lower odds ... Than the loser at high odds ... If we're talking the WIN position.

[Bozo]

Just for a little discussion. What other races on Friday and Saturday would Zenyatta also be competitive in other than the Ladies Classic and the Classic?

[Secretariat Forever]

Just for a little discussion. What other races on Friday and Saturday would Zenyatta also be competitive in other than the Ladies Classic and the Classic?


Marathon

[Spahny]

Filly and Mare Sprint.

[GinTalking]

Here's a Zen portrait, this afternoon.

http://www.theshedrow.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=25&pos=20