Zenyatta News

[GinTalking]

She's been East once so far this year. She did it once in 2008 as well. This is 2010 and horses ship very regularly. I'm not sure how that would be an excuse, just so long as they don't go crazy and ship like 6-8 times. Like I said, if they go in the Margarita (which they did), the HGC, and the Zenyatta, they'd end up shipping 4 times over 9 months. I'm really not sold that's a 'lot.'


I've been told that shipping via plane is much much easier on a horse than one who ships from say New York to Maryland or Virginia (trying to think of a 200-400 mile one-way) in a van or trailer (even worse, but done all the time).

I guess it takes some time to go from the track to the airport, etc., but once they're on the plane, it's relatively easy and isn't at all like a trip up and down I-95, bumping along with exhaust fumes and noise from tractor trailers, cars, sirens and so forth, not to mention getting stuck sitting on the Turnpike for an hour due to an accident of some sort. It does make sense. Riding a train from Baltimore to Penn Station is a ton easier than making the same trip in a car.

If that's what your horse is used to, then it's no big deal ... riding on a van for a great distance. Concern didn't seem to give a hoot when he stepped off a van and less than 24 hours later won the BC Classic. I'm thinking of MTB here. Clearly by the time he'd arrived in Kentucky, there probably wasn't much he hadn't experienced. Didn't seem to bother him any.

[Photo Finish]

I have never seen so many excuses for a horse that doesn't need them.


Amen.

[Photo Finish]

Very sensible schedule and WELL within Zenyatta's capability. 7 races is one year is not too much to ask of a horse at her level.



IMO this would be the perfect Z-schedule for the rest of the year, barring injuries/form decline/etc:

Stephen Foster June 12
Hollywood Gold Cup July 10
...give her a short break...
Woodward Sept. 4
Goodwood or JCGC (not sure the dates on those)
BC Classic

They could even slide the Whitney in there on August 7th without too much difficulty, although it would mean shipping cross country another time.

I don't think they should hesitate about shipping her unless it's obvious it's causing a problem. She's a strapping horse and seems to be able to handle most situations both mentally and physically.

[WesternDreamer]

Here's a nice read:

http://www.examiner.com/x-12303-Horse-Racing-Examiner~y2010m4d10-Zenyatta-and-Personal-Ensign-now-forever-linked

[EquineAnne]

cute pic of your little guy WD.

[Funny Bird]

I'm in this photo!
http://gallery.bloodhorse.com/SlideShow/default.aspx?gallery=Zenyatta_Apple_Blossom&photo= 11
Second person from the right, in between the guy with the blue hat and the woman with the camera held up to her face.

[SecretariatForever]

Let 2010 test Zenyatta's greatness

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=5078685



The Foster is exactly where she belongs ? in a Grade 1 race against males. Zenyatta has become a lot more than the best filly or mare in the game. She's the best horse in the world right now and the best horse in the world should not be running in races restricted to females strictly in her own backyard. Enough with the paid public workouts in the Milady, Vanity and Clement Hirsch against three or four hopelessly overmatched rivals, it's time to move on to much bigger and much better things. Fortunately, it seems that owner Jerry Moss gets that.







Zenyatta and her FIJI water. :azn:

http://horsephotos.com/watermark.jsp?photoID=113691

[Citation07]

IMO this would be the perfect Z-schedule for the rest of the year, barring injuries/form decline/etc:

Stephen Foster June 12
Hollywood Gold Cup July 10
...give her a short break...
Woodward Sept. 4
Goodwood or JCGC (not sure the dates on those)
BC Classic

They could even slide the Whitney in there on August 7th without too much difficulty, although it would mean shipping cross country another time.

I don't think they should hesitate about shipping her unless it's obvious it's causing a problem. She's a strapping horse and seems to be able to handle most situations both mentally and physically.


Where's the "like" button?

I give that schedule a hearty two thumbs up. :grin:

I'd be obscenely happy to see her back in CA. I rather selfishly want to see Z live again.

[moonwalker]

Got back from Arkansas to Colorado with the cats safely, thank you! Found a couple of short clips I made of Zenyatta, and uploaded to YouTube.

These two short videos of Zenyatta and Mario were taken the day on Thursday 4/8/2010, the day before the Apple Blossom. She is walking from the barn area to the paddock, and the second shows her dappled coat well. Sorry they are in two parts; I just got the camera and was learning how to make movies. The set of Zenyatta movies I have on my YouTube account (moonwalker424) are the first ones I made with my new Canon camera -- it was a still type, but luckily it had a movie function, too!

I made these two short films, then Zenyatta went into the paddock. She came out and went into the infield, then was led down the stretch, where she danced in my "Zenyatta Dances at Oaklawn" video.

No screaming ladies in these two short videos, LOL!



Part One:

VIDEO - Zenyatta on her way to school in paddock, pt. 1 (Thurs. 4/8/2010) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkFKRGR7yQA#)


Part Two:

VIDEO - Zenyatta on her way to school in paddock pt. 2 (4/8/2010) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF1diZHCfjA#)

By the way, the breakfast the guy asks about at the end of the second video was the track kitchen breakfast at Oaklawn, which was good! Zenyatta worked that morning with Steve; I heard scuttlebutt over breakfast that she'd be back to school a little later, so I stuck around and made three videos and more still pictures.

Over the week, I saw Zenyatta arrive at the airport Tuesday (4/7/2010), exercise on the track on Wednesday and Thursday mornings, school in the paddock/infield on Thursday, stretch her legs on the track on Friday morning, and race in the Apple Blossom on Friday 4/9/2010.

Mary MMM

P.S. If you look closely in my videos, you can see a gal in a brown jacket with a camera. That's the photographer Barbara Livingston. She has a blue vest on, on the race day itself.

[Diver67]

Even if all goes well through the summer and she takes on the boys, I think they might drop her back into the "Zenyatta" :grin: for her final BCC prep. It would be an easier race than the Goodwood and (I hope!) they might want to give her California fans a last chance to see her. (Other than the "retirement parties," of course.)

[Photo Finish]

I'm in this photo!
http://gallery.bloodhorse.com/SlideShow/default.aspx?gallery=Zenyatta_Apple_Blossom&photo= 11
Second person from the right, in between the guy with the blue hat and the woman with the camera held up to her face.


Black shirt, right? Very cool! You should buy that photo form Bloodhorse if it's available.

[Photo Finish]

I hope I'm not making a duplicate post of this, but here's a link to a really short YouTube video that shows Zenyatta bowing when her name was announced prior to the AB.
Zenyatta bowing for her fans @ Oaklawn Park (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgI3unblkxk#)

[violabella]

I would SOOOOO be there!!!!

Stephen Foster a possibility!

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=5078841

[dustino140]

I have never seen so many excuses for a horse that doesn't need them.


My favorite are all of the "Why can't you just ENJOY her" people. Especially the ones who put ENJOY in all caps. I love those people. They're great. Some people use italics, but the all caps is my personal choice. To these people, it's both completely impossible to completely admire and enjoy a horse, and also want to see it pushed. It really is amazing how horse racing has evolved. I used to defend all of the supposed "fragile" horses, saying how times are different now, but c'mon people. I get it - people just want to sit back and ENJOY Zenyatta. They ENJOY her a lot. Some of them even LOVE and ENJOY her. She rides on the wings of ANGELS, some people ENJOY her so much. Personally, I think I'm capable of ENJOY(ing) Zenyatta and also wanting to see more. Why go out of your way to prove that she's the best of either gender, and then not exploit that talent?

You hit the nail on the head - people are clamoring over each other to throw excuses out for Zenyatta (too much shipping, too hard a schedule, weights too much) - when the mare doesn't need them. It's hilariously pathetic, really. They must ENJOY doing that as much as they ENJOY watching her run. Evidently the two coincide. But hey, who am I to tell somebody what they shouldn't ENJOY?

But oh well, I guess since I'm incapable of ENJOY(ing) her, I'll let the others here ENJOY her and I'll sit back and ENJOY her, and continue to want to see her run a difficult schedule that she has proven worth of.

[Spahny]

She'll run in the Stephen Foster.

We'll see who else shows up.

[moonwalker]

Mine That Bird is supposed to be pointed toward the Stephen Foster. Bless his heart, she'll have him for a snack.

Mary MMM

[Railbird]

Waiting for the Couching Club at Saratoga at a mile and a eighth around two turns looks better at Saratoga though the Personal Ensign looks the best.


She can't run in the Coaching Club. It's for 3YO fillies.



Mine That Bird is supposed to be pointed toward the Stephen Foster. Bless his heart, she'll have him for a snack.


Hahaha....go back and watch the first quarter mile or so of the BCC. She pulls up on his outside and absolutely DWARFS him. Just picture the thoughts going through his head: "Hey Calvin, *** is THAT?!?!"

[moonwalker]

Hahaha....go back and watch the first quarter mile or so of the BCC. She pulls up on his outside and absolutely DWARFS him. Just picture the thoughts going through his head: "Hey Calvin, What in the world? is THAT?!?!"

That was hilarious! In the stretch of the B.C. the first time, Calvin looks back like "Hey, I'm supposed to be last, who the heck is behind ME?" and then they are next to each other in the turn and Mine That Bird looks like Zenyatta's foal running beside her. The size difference is a crack up. Poor little guy.

Mary MMM

[ElPrado]

Hey dustino... don't lump me in with the bunch that wants to just ENJOY her. I want her to run. I'm just tired of people that don't want her beating up on horses that the connections of are terrified of her doing a duck and weave routine that would defeat Sonny Liston. If their horses are so good, let them prove it. Stop agreeing to run then behaving like a mallard.

[Dusty]

Put me in whatever group you want! I am enjoying her! But I also give her trainer and her connections the credit for taking care of her so she is where she is. Damn me if you want but I want her to race and I want her to win and I want her to be sound and happy. I trust her connections - I respect them and they do care for her and her fans..(yes I was in the winner's circle in the Breeder's Cup - thanks to Mrs Moss)
..Hmm seems she is well and happy.... and will run when the connections decide what is best...
Let her run - let her thrive - let HER decide - I think the connections are listening and they are ready for her to prove what she can do - their choice - NOT YOURS nor mine

[Jinx]

I hope I'm not making a duplicate post of this, but here's a link to a really short YouTube video that shows Zenyatta bowing when her name was announced prior to the AB.
Zenyatta bowing for her fans @ Oaklawn Park (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgI3unblkxk#)


Thank you for posting this. I have read descriptions of her doing that, but had not seen it before. Amazing.

[SecretariatForever]

Mine That Bird is supposed to be pointed toward the Stephen Foster. Bless his heart, she'll have him for a snack.

Mary MMM


I can't see him going if she goes. Unless he's a completely different horse this year, and by that I mean like 50x improved.

[carbonite]

Why not? Last year it was clearly the surface he enjoyed most, and this is the biggest race that they run for which he is eligible.

[SecretariatForever]

I can't see his connections throwing him into a race against a horse like Zenyatta when he's been off for how long. His last few races in 2009 weren't exactly great. And he hasn't had a prep yet, and who knows if he will have one in time to prepare him for the SF.


If the field turns out weak and no Zenyatta, then maybe they'll give it a try if he's ready. But otherwise I don't see them throwing him to the wolves like that cause that's exactly what they'd be doing.

[carbonite]

He's been jogging for nearly a month and should be close to his first breeze. His main target this year is the Classic at Churchill Downs, and the Stephen Foster makes sense for him in the same way it does for everyone else in that division thinking about that ultimate target. The plan is to ship him to Churchill when Sunland closes later this month, and see how he trains going forward. Churchill doesn't have a mid-May stakes on the card for him, but they are likely to have others interested in the Stephen Foster so they might write an allowance. I think the Schaeffer on the Preakness undercard could be a prep alternative as well. The big question would be how he breezes when he gets back on the worktab. They mostly put him in G1s last year and he was competitive in his age group. If he has benefited from the time off, he could still make a mid-June G1.

[Dave in TJMex]

Forget Mine That Bird (at least until he shows he can run back to his Kentucky Derby form).

I am much more interested in seeing if Misremembered ships east for the Stephen Foster, and whether Battle Plan is pointed there as well.

Although Quality Road won't be there, its possible that virtually every other one of the best older male horses will run in the Foster, given that virtually all of them are in the midwest and training at Keeneland or Churchill right now.

That race --- at a mile and eighth, which I think is not Zenyatta's best distance (I think 1 1/4 miles is, given that she is always running everyone down in the stretch and the only question in her races is whether she will have enough time and enough stretch to catch the leaders) --- could be an even bigger challenge for Zenyatta than last year's BCC if Misremembered, Battle Plan, Macho Again, Bullsbay, General Quarters and a few others show up.

Just one man's opinion.

[peeptoad]

That race --- at a mile and eighth, which I think is not Zenyatta's best distance (I think 1 1/4 miles is, given that she is always running everyone down in the stretch and the only question in her races is whether she will have enough time and enough stretch to catch the leaders) --- could be an even bigger challenge for Zenyatta than last year's BCC if Misremembered, Battle Plan, Macho Again, Bullsbay, General Quarters and a few others show up.
Just one man's opinion.


And Blame. Don't forget Blame.

[Dave in TJMex]

Thanks for the reminder, Peeptoad.

I think the Foster field will be so loaded that it will be the ultimate test of whether the Mosses are ready to really roll the dice and take a significant chance of seeing Zenyatta beaten, or whether they will take a safer road to the BCC.

The Foster, however, would appear to be their only chance to get Zenyatta a race over the track before the BCC. And its extremely long stretch will obviously favor the stretch-running Zenyatta.

Hope it happens. :wink:

[carbonite]

I think the Foster field will be so loaded that it will be the ultimate test of whether the Mosses are ready to really roll the dice and take a significant chance of seeing Zenyatta beaten, or whether they will take a safer road to the BCC.

LOL.

See Pope's description of Atticus.

[Dave in TJMex]

Hi Carbonite -

Hope all is well with you.

Hey, this has got to be a first on the TBC Board. A poster (me) being insulted by being advised to check out Alexander Pope's satiric attack on the character of Atticus! :shocked: :grin:

I stand by my assertion, however.

Shirreffs/Moss were quoted in the DRF as saying (a) they want to run Zenyatta in Grade I races, (b) they want to run her at 1 1/8 miles, (c) they want a race over the Churchill Downs track before the BCC, (d) they want to take Zenyatta on the road this year, and (e) they don't want to run her in the Milady or the Vanity at Hollywood Park because they don't like the high weights they have received in the past in those events.

Moreover, the Stephen Foster, at $600,000, is worth more than any of the other mid-summer races they might consider for Z, other than the Delaware Handicap.

My conclusion: assuming Z is fit and can run somewhere, by the criteria the Mosses and Shirreffs have publicly stated they are guided by, the Stephen Foster fits their desires for Zenyatta better than any other race. Unless they don't want to risk Z's unbeaten streak by running against the best older males (other than Quality Road), there is no better place for Zenyatta in May through July than in the Foster.

So, Carbonite, which part of my assertion is so laugh-out-loudable? :azn:

The part where I state that the Mosses may not want to risk Z's unbeaten streak by running in the Foster against the boys, the part where I say the best older males (other than Quality Road) will be in the Stephen Foster, the implicit part (that Zenyatta might get beat in that race), or all three? :undecided:

Let's face it, the Mosses have been very conservative in their handling of Z to date. I have no criticisms of that -- how can you criticize them, she is 16 for 16 now and won last year's BCC --- but you must admit, to date they have not been risk-takers at all with her, other than running her in the BCC.

And while some of my friends on this Board contend that Z routinely just wins by a couple of lengths because that is all that is needed, and can always unleash a much higher Beyer number if and when needed (as shown in the BCC), I am not completely convinced that if she were running against older males race in and race out, she would be capable of such huge efforts. Plus, in larger fields, her come-from-behind style is compromised. Mike Smith would regularly face the quandry of either going very wide on the far turn (and losing several lengths) or trying to thread Zenyatta through traffic in the stretch (a dicey proposition, as evidenced by the BCC and her Santa Margarita race earlier this year).

I am a Zenyatta fan, but continuing to run her against other fillies and mares is a waste of her talent, unless the Mosses simply want to continue her unbeaten streak and establish her as arguably the best filly/mare of all time. Even if Zenyatta loses one or two along the way, I would hope to see her tested against the older males the rest of the year, wouldn't you?

Obviously, the Mosses own the horse, and can and should make the call.

But given the criteria for her next race as set forth publicly by her connections in the DRF, there is only one place for that race (assuming she is fit and healthy) unless they are going to duck male older horses: the Stephen Foster.

Hey, by the way, thanks for the English literature lesson! :smiley:

[moonwalker]

My Zenyatta still photos from Oaklawn Park and the Apple Blossom are up, in the Racing Photos section of the forum.

http://thoroughbredchampions.com/forum/index.php?topic=42258.0

Mary MMM

[carbonite]

Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer;
And, without sneering, teach the rest to sneer.

Who said I was insulting you.

Certainly, nothing I said was close to as disparaging as your comments were about the horse, whose unbeaten season last year culminated in a commanding victory against the best field assembled for one race in this country all year.

Somehow, though, in spite of being universally acclaimed as having won the toughest race of the year last year, she goes right back to her customary status as running a sheltered campaign--one that, by the way, has her out in front again this year as having won the most G1 races so far this year.

She is the Rodney Dangerfield of racing, and has only to lose or to die to become more fully appreciated than she is currently.

I suspect that since the Breeder's Cup Classic will be at Churchill Downs this year, this year's Stephen Foster will be tougher. I wonder what weight Macho Again will be assigned if he returns to defend his title?

[Dave in TJMex]

Hi Carbonite -

Oh, I didn't take your previous post as an insult. More like gentle mockery, which I took in good fun, as indicated by my smiley-faces.

Hey, when did I disparage Zenyatta? All I said was that I am not convinced that if she starts running every race against older males, she will post high Beyers like she did in the BCC. She has been winning her other races with more moderate Beyers (98 to 105, routinely), and would likely need to step it up if she runs consistently against the boys. To me, nothing controversial or disparaging there.

But, to set the record straight, I rank Zenyatta as the second best American-raced filly or mare of the last 40 years, behind Ruffian and ahead of Personal Ensign. I rank Ruffian higher because (a) until the match race, she was first at every call of every race, and (b) Ruffian tied or set stakes records in 8 of her 11 races. Zenyatta, of course, is not pushed to set any track records. I just find Ruffian's accomplishments a little more impressive, although others may disagree. And my mind could be changed, depending upon how Zenyatta finishes her career.

Is Zenyatta the Rodney Dangerfield of racing, as you say, not adequately respected? I disagree. Some Rachel supporters (especially last year) disparaged Zenyatta in their fervor to boost Rachel for HOY honors, but I believe most Rachel fans (who are not crazy) and virtually all other horse racing fans acknowledge that Zenyatta is one of the best fillies/mares of the last 40 years.

In actuality, I believe that Zenyatta is now getting some respect and praise she has not yet earned. Some on this Board now talk as if she is one of the best horses --- including males -- of all time. As impressive as her BCC victory was last year, let's remember it was on a track others may not have favored (synth) and was in SoCal, her home base. She has only raced against older males once.

To me, for Zenyatta to go down as one of the all-time great horses (as opposed to one of the all-time great fillies/mares), she needs to either win another BCC (to join the ranks of the fabulous Tiznow) or beat up on top older males a couple of times.

There is nothing wrong with the Mosses if they choose to keep Z within her division, and she keeps beating up on other fillies and mares. Unless Rachel regains her 2008 form, Zenyatta will likely be able to continue doing that, without challenge. And regardless of how Zenyatta fares in the 2010 BCC (if she races there), her position as one of the top 2-3 fillies/mares of the last 50 years or so will remain in place.

Do the Mosses want more? Do they want to test Z's ability to toy with the boys outside of the BCC? I hope so. If so, the Foster is the place for her to run.

And if the Mosses choose not to run there, but elsewhere during about the same time frame, we will know their ambitions are not as great for Zenyatta as they might be

Horse racing fans want to see great races with great horses. Horse owners want to win races (and money). Nothing wrong with the Mosses doing as they please with Z.

In my opinion, though, Zenyatta continuing to beat up on her division rivals will do nothing to increase her historical stature.

Hope we see Zenyatta against the boys a couple of times before the BCC. :wink:

[littlelate]

IF she loses any of her future races, will it really be because she wasn't as good as the field? Should she lost the SF (if she goes), will it really mean she isn't better than MTB? She beat most of them in the BCC anyway, just curios as to how everyone feels.

[Dave in TJMex]

On race is just one race. A loss in any one race could be for any reason, a bad post, bad pace, bad trip, bad ride, the horse just doesn't feel good, etc. To me, it doesn't mean much. It's just one race.

Ask Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer. They all lost.

Run enough times against really good competition, and you will lose.

[SecretariatForever]

I am much more interested in seeing if Misremembered ships east for the Stephen Foster, and whether Battle Plan is pointed there as well.

Battle Plan's connections have had the Stephen Foster as their next goal since his last race. So if he stays healthy and ready, he'll be there.




That race --- at a mile and eighth, which I think is not Zenyatta's best distance (I think 1 1/4 miles is, given that she is always running everyone down in the stretch and the only question in her races is whether she will have enough time and enough stretch to catch the leaders) --- could be an even bigger challenge for Zenyatta than last year's BCC if Misremembered, Battle Plan, Macho Again, Bullsbay, General Quarters and a few others show up.


Macho Again and Bullsbay...a challenge for Zenyatta? Not a chance, unless something would go major wrong for her and major right for them. Bullsbay is too slow to hold her off and Macho Again will be finding himself having a very hard time trying to keep up with her as they both make their moves to catch the field.

I'm looking forward to her facing Battle Plan (if they both go), that could be a nice match up. I don't really fear him beating her though. Truthfully the only male I fear beating her is Quality Road (though I love Quality Road also!). I don't know if I will be able to handle that match up, I might pass out from nerve overload!

[Dave in TJMex]

Hi Secretariat Forever -

I agree that Bullsbay and Macho Again are no superstars. However, on good days they can (and have) run Beyers in the 106-108 range at 1 1/8 miles, which is more than any filly or mare that Zenyatta runs against (and those Beyers are faster than Zenyatta routinely runs, as evidenced, for example, by her two Beyers this year, 98 and 95).

So, if those two horses (or Misremembered who I believe has run about a 106, and Battle Plan, who has already run a 109 this year) have a good day and run big races, Zenyatta will have to run faster than she usually does to beat them.

And, of course, that is the issue: does Zenyatta always run just as fast as she needs to win, and when she needs to run a really fast race --- as in the BCC last year --- can she rise to the occasion?

Enquiring minds want to know, and want to see her in the Foster against the boys! :grin:

[SecretariatForever]

Hi Secretariat Forever -

I agree that Bullsbay and Macho Again are no superstars. However, on good days they can (and have) run Beyers in the 106-108 range at 1 1/8 miles, which is more than any filly or mare that Zenyatta runs against (and those Beyers are faster than Zenyatta routinely runs, as evidenced, for example, by her two Beyers this year, 98 and 95).

So, if those two horses (or Misremembered who I believe has run about a 106, and Battle Plan, who has already run a 109 this year) have a good day and run big races, Zenyatta will have to run faster than she usually does to beat them.

Hello! :tongue:

Zenyatta is more than capable of running a higher beyer than Bullsbay or Macho Again ever have. She just never needs to. I don't put too much importance on beyers though. They more than often don't prove much. Certainly not who's the better horse. MA and Bullsbay have raced a total of 43 starts with 13 wins 11 seconds 2 thirds and 17 other. Zenyatta has won more races than theirs combined. Winning is whats important, not beyers.

But whether beyers are important to you or not, one thing is for sure they do not matter when speaking about Zenyatta.




And, of course, that is the issue: does Zenyatta always run just as fast as she needs to win, and when she needs to run a really fast race --- as in the BCC last year --- can she rise to the occasion?


Before the BCC last year, she had many handicappers saying she's too slow, her beyers aren't fast enough, she will finish off the board. And what did she do? :wink:

Just like the BCC last year, she can rise to the occasion. The real question is, can the males run faster than they ever have to keep up with her? :cool:

[Miss Woodford]

On race is just one race. A loss in any one race could be for any reason, a bad post, bad pace, bad trip, bad ride, the horse just doesn't feel good, etc. To me, it doesn't mean much. It's just one race.

Ask Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer. They all lost.

Run enough times against really good competition, and you will lose.

Unless you are Kincsem.

[Grade1]

Dave in TJMex,

I think your posts #1040 and 1043 gave a very well-stated and realistic analysis of Zenyatta's career thus far (as well as some thoughts on possibilities yet to come).

[Dave in TJMex]

Thanks for your kind comment, Grade I. You are obviously a very astute follower of horse racing! :wink:

And sorry, Ms. Woodford. I meant to exclude from my comment --- run enough times, and you will eventually get beat --- all undefeated Hungarian horses running before 1880, like the wondrous Kinscem! :wink:

[carbonite]

Hey, when did I disparage Zenyatta?

But, to set the record straight, I rank Zenyatta as the second best American-raced filly or mare of the last 40 years, behind Ruffian and ahead of Personal Ensign.


I think you disparage Zenyatta (more accurately, her connections) here:



I think the Foster field will be so loaded that it will be the ultimate test of whether the Mosses are ready to really roll the dice and take a significant chance of seeing Zenyatta beaten, or whether they will take a safer road to the BCC.

The clear implication of that sentence is last year's lie: that they conducted a protected campaign, when in fact their unbeaten season ended with a victory over the best field assembled in this country. It was part of the frenzy last year to make that race a special exception, but there is absolutely no reason to continue to deny that the race represented the most significant chance of defeat that anyone faced in this country last year.

There is a chance that this year's Stephen Foster will be a tougher field, but it is unlikely. Continuing the charade that Zenyatta does not face significant competition is not only old and tired, it's stupidly false.

Your own post offers two fillies that you prefer to Zenyatta. Combined, they faced a grand total of 3 males (roughly a quarter of the number Zenyatta faced) with mixed results. One never stepped outside her age group. The fact is that you can not find a female in the last 50 years who has defeated as many males with significant victories as Zenyatta; perhaps the last century. But said aside the issue of running against males, and think about quality races against other fillies and mares. Make me a list of the number of fillies in the last 100 years who have competed in more G1 (or even more G1 and G2) races than Zenyatta. I'm not sure how many you'll find; honestly, I'm not sure if you will find any. But I know none of them will have been as successful as Zenyatta has been. None of them.

But I don't expect her to get credit for that record. Too many people are too loud and too dogmatic in denying its reality. Her time will come. Just not for a while.





On race is just one race. A loss in any one race could be for any reason, a bad post, bad pace, bad trip, bad ride, the horse just doesn't feel good, etc. To me, it doesn't mean much. It's just one race.

Ask Secretariat, Spectacular Bid, Native Dancer. They all lost.

Run enough times against really good competition, and you will lose.

Unless you are Kincsem.

Dave's right. They'll all lose if they run long enough. Kincsem just didn't run long enough. A few more years would have got her beat.

[Curlin]

Make me a list of the number of fillies in the last 100 years who have competed in more G1 (or even more G1 and G2) races than Zenyatta. I'm not sure how many you'll find; honestly, I'm not sure if you will find any. But I know none of them will have been as successful as Zenyatta has been. None of them.


?????????????????

The grading system began ... when? I can name at least 2 - Lady's Secret and Azeri, after the grading system began. There are probably several more. I'm assuming you had to be kidding, so that's about all I'm going to contribute right now. :undecided:

[Hermes Redux]

Serena's Song and Silverbulletday come to mind as possible participants in a fair number of Gr. 1 stakes, off the top of my head. But that is just in the last 16 years, oh, and they did race at 2, too.

Grading system began about 30-35 years ago?

[Dave in TJMex]

Hey, I'm stickin' to my guns! :wink:

In a previous post, I labeled Zenyatta one of the two best fillies/mares of the last 40 years, possibly only second to Ruffian, and I stated that depending upon how Z finishes her career, she might wind up No. 1 in my book. If that is disparaging Zenyatta, I plead guilty. I think reasonable people can differ on who is/was the greater horse, Ruffian or Zenyatta.

Obviously, Z is no ordinary filly/mare. She obviously can compete with --- if not routinely defeat --- the best male older horses.

Given that fact, I'm just expressing one fan's wish. I would like to see her run several more times against the best older males before she retires, even if it means that by doing so, the chance that her unbeaten streak will end increases significantly.

Given that the Mosses have already run her outside her division successfully once by running in and winning the BCC last year and apparently hope to do the same this year, I hope they will find an additional spot or two before then to run her against the top US older males.

Does anyone really want to see her run in the Milady or the Vanity AGAIN, and win again while earning Beyers that are lower than the best older male horses out there? I think not.

I hope to see Z challenged a few more times in her career by running against better competition --- older males --- so that she can demonstrate even further greatness than the greatness she has already shown us. There's nothing wrong with her winning all these Grade I filly/mare races. It is just that with a horse as great as Zenyatta, those restricted races may be a little beneath her abilities, especially at this point in her career.

That's not disparaging her, that's paying her a big compliment! :smiley:

[Flanders]

Make me a list of the number of fillies in the last 100 years who have competed in more G1 (or even more G1 and G2) races than Zenyatta. I'm not sure how many you'll find; honestly, I'm not sure if you will find any. But I know none of them will have been as successful as Zenyatta has been. None of them.


?????????????????

The grading system began ... when? I can name at least 2 - Lady's Secret and Azeri, after the grading system began. There are probably several more. I'm assuming you had to be kidding, so that's about all I'm going to contribute right now. :undecided:

The US graded racing system began in 1973.
Paseana ran in 26 G1 or G2 races(in the US), not including the Pacific Classic with wasn't graded at the time. Bayakoa ran in 22 G1 or G2 Races(in the US).
I'm sure there are more since the system began, especially just in terms of G1-G2 appearances.

[Jeff]

Serena's Song and Silverbulletday come to mind as possible participants in a fair number of Gr. 1 stakes, off the top of my head. But that is just in the last 16 years, oh, and they did race at 2, too.

Grading system began about 30-35 years ago?


Add Bayakoa and Paseana. Each ran in more than 20 Grade I and II stakes. Mostly Grade I.

[carbonite]

If that is disparaging Zenyatta, I plead guilty.

You seize on the word "disparaging" then run away from the specific charge that I present you with:



I think you disparage Zenyatta (more accurately, her connections) here:



I think the Foster field will be so loaded that it will be the ultimate test of whether the Mosses are ready to really roll the dice and take a significant chance of seeing Zenyatta beaten, or whether they will take a safer road to the BCC.


The canard, popularized during last year's Horse of the Year debate, that Zenyatta ducks competition is simply untrue.

Since my post last night, several people have (while expressing disbelief that I would even contemplate the idea that Zenyatta is not ducking competition) brought forward names of fillies who have attempted more. I don't have data at my fingertips on Azeri, but would be happy to have someone add her data to the list, so we can see how she compares (I am sure she will look good). Here's the rest of the group:

Bayakoa 20 G1s with 7 losses; she lost her first 4;
Paseana 25 G1s with 14 losses; she lost her first 2;
Serena's Song 22 G1s with 12 losses; she lost her second and 3 of her first 8;
Lady's Secret 18 G1s with 7 losses; she lost her first and 2 of her first 5;
Zenyatta 10G1s with 0 losses; she has not lost yet.

All of these are great mares and no one EVER claims that they met weak competition. All of them raced more often and faced more G1 fields than Zenyatta. Yet Zenyatta already has as many G1 victories as Serena's Song, and is within one of Paseana and Lady's Secret. Combined those fillies lost 40 of their 85 G1 starts, just under 50%; that tweaks a little high in part because Paseana had to face Bayakoa. But all of these fine mares lost more than a third of their G1 starts; and none of them raced as long as Zenyatta has in G1 company without losing.

G1 races were recognized as serious competition for these fillies because they got beat in those races. Now a filly comes along who doesn't get beat in those races; and instead of acknowledging that the filly is special, people want to say instead that the competition is weak. When Zenyatta loses, the same people who disparage her campaigns routinely now will talk at great length about how much they respect her ability. She just needs to lose to gain that acceptance.

[teb]

I haven't seen this posted anywhere else and since this is Zenyatta news, I thought it would apply. In my Racing Post today was a very small box on who JS thinks Z should go to when she enters the breeding shed.

Might surprise you to know he is recommending Sea The Stars!

Terri

[ManOTaz]

Hey, I'm stickin' to my guns! :wink:

In a previous post, I labeled Zenyatta one of the two best fillies/mares of the last 40 years, possibly only second to Ruffian, and I stated that depending upon how Z finishes her career, she might wind up No. 1 in my book. If that is disparaging Zenyatta, I plead guilty. I think reasonable people can differ on who is/was the greater horse, Ruffian or Zenyatta.

Obviously, Z is no ordinary filly/mare. She obviously can compete with --- if not routinely defeat --- the best male older horses.

Given that fact, I'm just expressing one fan's wish. I would like to see her run several more times against the best older males before she retires, even if it means that by doing so, the chance that her unbeaten streak will end increases significantly.

Given that the Mosses have already run her outside her division successfully once by running in and winning the BCC last year and apparently hope to do the same this year, I hope they will find an additional spot or two before then to run her against the top US older males.

Does anyone really want to see her run in the Milady or the Vanity AGAIN, and win again while earning Beyers that are lower than the best older male horses out there? I think not.

I hope to see Z challenged a few more times in her career by running against better competition --- older males --- so that she can demonstrate even further greatness than the greatness she has already shown us. There's nothing wrong with her winning all these Grade I filly/mare races. It is just that with a horse as great as Zenyatta, those restricted races may be a little beneath her abilities, especially at this point in her career.

That's not disparaging her, that's paying her a big compliment! :smiley:


Dave:

Join the club. Any time anyone tries to offer an objective assessment of Zenyatta's record which does not end in a curtsey or other genuflection...we are disparaging the great mare...

The best fillies and mares in the country ran in the BC Ladies Classic last year and Zenyatta faced and beat one of them. Now, it just so happens the horse that Zenyatta beat mulitple times was the horse that won the race.... However, nowhere in those races had Life Is Sweet performed racing Zenyatta as she did in her GI Santa Margarita victory or her Ladies Classic victory...is that Zenyatta's fault...of course not...but it remains a factor...I think.

Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Do I think she would have beaten these horses? Most of them yes. On Pro Ride. Absolutely. But the fact is that she did not face them.

Am I disparaging Zenyatta? I do not think so. I am stating a fact. But carbonite (and others) would certainly argue that I am because he happens to disagree with the assessment.

He points out that Zenyatta was carrying a great deal of weight in various races and she was and that deserves mention and appreciation....but despite that she was still crushing the fields she faced.

Frankly, I do not believe Zenyatta will return to CA to race this year unless it is in a race after the Breeders Cup.

I think they are campaigning her this year.

Part of the criticism last year which I think was fair, but persons like carbonite may not...is the lack of imagination in her campaign. Except for the BC Classic it was identical to a portion of the schedule she raced in 2007. They had planned one diversion...the Louisville Distaff/Handicap but she was scratched on the sealed track. And they said they would have faced Rachel in the Beldame, but when she did not race there...neither did they. They wanted her fresh for the race and she was...and she performed like it. BUt could she have performed just as well having run in the Beldame...the Pacific Classic...etc.

I think so...

I think there is no doubt she faced a conservative campaign. No other horse in the BC Classic last year only ran 4 times the rest of the year except Girolamo a lightly raced three year old and perhaps Rip Van Winkle because of injury...this is a fact...

[Citation07]

Wait a minute--Zenyatta was ducking competition by racing in the BC Classic? Really? :huh:

And she should have shipped all the way across the country (which her connections were willing to do if RA was in the race) to prep for a race in her backyard? And she should have run against the boys in the Pac Classic, on the one surface she absolutely hates? I'm a bit confused.

[Rick1323]

Wait a minute--Zenyatta was ducking competition by racing in the BC Classic? Really? :huh:

And she should have shipped all the way across the country (which her connections were willing to do if RA was in the race) to prep for a race in her backyard? And she should have run against the boys in the Pac Classic, on the one surface she absolutely hates? I'm a bit confused.


Don't try to use logic. It won't work with those who pretend to like Zenyatta, while finding fault using the most asinine reasons available. They planned her year around a BC repeat. They one upped that by winning the BCC. A perfectly crafted and executed campaign that somehow falls short of some expectations. No amount of logic is going to help someone with that head space.

[Curlin]

MOT,

She did beat Music Note in the 2008 Ladies' Classic, so one would assume she'd have beaten her again in the 2009 running. With regard to Careless Jewel, she ran in the Ladies' Classic, finishing last, ostensibly because she was too keyed up beforehand (a habit of hers, alas) and ran off. The surface isn't much of an excuse, as she had already won on Woodbine's synthetic surface.

I find it amusing that we're now arguing that she didn't beat the best F & M from last year, after she arguably beat the best males. One would assume also that if she beat the males, that would be a step up (though probably not in the case of RA) from beating the f/m.

Whose fault was it she didn't run against RA? Well, put the blame directly at the feet of JJ, as he had every opportunity to race her in the Beldame (where Z was nominated) or in the BC Classic (when she'd already won on synthetic). Fact was, he ran RA so hard through the Woodward, that she was done by Labor Day. Maybe the Mosses' conservative route wasn't such a bad idea. They may have conserved their horse's soundness and made her stay fit for another year of racing, but it cost her HOTY.

I myself would like to see Z in the SF and then in the HGC, then given a bit of a breather since she hates Del Mar, and sent back east for the Beldame, though if she goes there she'll be ducking males everywhere, while if she stays in So Cal and runs in either the Goodwood (against males) or the Lady's Secret / Zenyatta (against f/m), she'll be ducking RA. She can win on the racetrack, but off the track she just can't win. :tongue:

[Curlin]

If that is disparaging Zenyatta, I plead guilty.

You seize on the word "disparaging" then run away from the specific charge that I present you with:



I think you disparage Zenyatta (more accurately, her connections) here:



I think the Foster field will be so loaded that it will be the ultimate test of whether the Mosses are ready to really roll the dice and take a significant chance of seeing Zenyatta beaten, or whether they will take a safer road to the BCC.


The canard, popularized during last year's Horse of the Year debate, that Zenyatta ducks competition is simply untrue.

Since my post last night, several people have (while expressing disbelief that I would even contemplate the idea that Zenyatta is not ducking competition) brought forward names of fillies who have attempted more. I don't have data at my fingertips on Azeri, but would be happy to have someone add her data to the list, so we can see how she compares (I am sure she will look good). Here's the rest of the group:

Bayakoa 20 G1s with 7 losses; she lost her first 4;
Paseana 25 G1s with 14 losses; she lost her first 2;
Serena's Song 22 G1s with 12 losses; she lost her second and 3 of her first 8;
Lady's Secret 18 G1s with 7 losses; she lost her first and 2 of her first 5;
Zenyatta 10G1s with 0 losses; she has not lost yet.

All of these are great mares and no one EVER claims that they met weak competition. All of them raced more often and faced more G1 fields than Zenyatta. Yet Zenyatta already has as many G1 victories as Serena's Song, and is within one of Paseana and Lady's Secret. Combined those fillies lost 40 of their 85 G1 starts, just under 50%; that tweaks a little high in part because Paseana had to face Bayakoa. But all of these fine mares lost more than a third of their G1 starts; and none of them raced as long as Zenyatta has in G1 company without losing.

G1 races were recognized as serious competition for these fillies because they got beat in those races. Now a filly comes along who doesn't get beat in those races; and instead of acknowledging that the filly is special, people want to say instead that the competition is weak. When Zenyatta loses, the same people who disparage her campaigns routinely now will talk at great length about how much they respect her ability. She just needs to lose to gain that acceptance.


Carbonite,

Your original post said to name fillies who had COMPETED in G1 races, NOT WON them.

[SoS]

Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Nah she just faced the best males in 2009 as well as the top mares (including one name above) all throughout her 2008 season. I think it's important to give full record context and credit where it is due. That said, much like Dave expressed, I found her campaign last year (aside from the BCC) a bit anticlimatic and am much less interested in her maintaining a perfect record than in seeing her mettle against top competition on dirt this year (which I think is very likely given the capstone of the season is not on synthetic and the Mosses want to cement her legacy as more than a synthetic specialist).

[TK]

Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Do I think she would have beaten these horses? Most of them yes. On Pro Ride. Absolutely. But the fact is that she did not face them.

Am I disparaging Zenyatta? I do not think so. I am stating a fact. But carbonite (and others) would certainly argue that I am because he happens to disagree with the assessment.

MOT.....I disagree with your assessments. Personally for me, I don't think there's a better race horse out there. I've thought Zenyatta's the best for a long time now. You mention Pro Ride as an advantage to her. I think she's even better on dirt. But what bothers me about you MOT, is that you don't have the huevos to tell us that you are not a Zen fan. Big deal. So you're not a fan of hers. Who cares. For some odd reason you feel the need to "try" and deceive us by telling us ever so often that you are a fan of hers. Bs. We're pretty much all on to you. "If" Z ever loses you will at least celebrate inwardly while trying to tell us that all the time you knew she wasn't that good from the beginning. You know, a synthetic specialist who never faced the best, yada, yada, yada. That will certainly make your day. The least you could do is grow a pair of b@lls and man up and tell us how you really feel about Zen. We all know anyway.

[Dave in TJMex]

For the record, as clearly as I can state:

1. In my opinion, Z is one of the best two fillies/mares of the last 40 years (with Ruffian), and with a bang-up finish to her career, could be No. 1 in my book. I have enormous respect for her abilities. So much so, I think it is a waste of her talent to keep running her against fillies/mares (unless Rachel regains her 2009 form or another terrific filly/mare emerges in the months to come).

2. The Mosses have handled her career brilliantly to date. Hard to argue with 16 for 16, with lots of Grade I races within her division, and the BCC, of course. The goal of any owner is to win races and win money, and they have done that well with her.

3. I don't believe the Mosses and Z have "ducked" anyone. Nor have I ever argued (or intentionally implied) that Z faces "weak" competition. The fillies/mares in her races look weak because she always beats them easily, usually under hand rides.

4. Other than the BCC, however, the Mosses' racing schedule with Z has been more conservative than I personally would like to see, given (a) she has only traveled outside SoCal twice, and (b) she has only raced against the boys once.

5. While that's not a conservative schedule for a top-notch filly/mare, it IS somewhat conservative for arguably one of the best horses of all time of either sex. But again, running in restricted Grade I company is not "ducking" anyone, in my opinion.

4. Nonetheless, given Z's greatness, the odds are that when and if she is really challenged and/or gets beat, it will be when she is running against older males, who generally run significantly faster (at least in routes) than fillies/mares, Beyer-wise.

5. The Mosses are perfectly entitled to keep running Z in Grade I, restricted (filly/mare) company if they wish. And those victories will only solidify her historical statute as a fabulous filly/mare.

6. However, as a fan, I want to see her challenged in several more races against the boys, culminating in the BCC. I don't think there are any fillies/mares around (given Rachel's current issues) who currently present a stiff challenge for Z, unless Z has a really bad day or a really bad trip.

7. In summary, Z is now (and for a while, has been) too big, too fast, and too talented for the filly/mare division. Only by racing against the boys (or against Rachel, if she regains her 2009 form) will she likely be challenged.

And if that is disparaging her connections, well, then so be it.

[Rick1323]

Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Do I think she would have beaten these horses? Most of them yes. On Pro Ride. Absolutely. But the fact is that she did not face them.

Am I disparaging Zenyatta? I do not think so. I am stating a fact. But carbonite (and others) would certainly argue that I am because he happens to disagree with the assessment.

MOT.....I disagree with your assessments. Personally for me, I don't think there's a better race horse out there. I've thought Zenyatta's the best for a long time now. You mention Pro Ride as an advantage to her. I think she's even better on dirt. But what bothers me about you MOT, is that you don't have the huevos to tell us that you are not a Zen fan. Big deal. So you're not a fan of hers. Who cares. For some odd reason you feel the need to "try" and deceive us by telling us ever so often that you are a fan of hers. Bs. We're pretty much all on to you. "If" Z ever loses you will at least celebrate inwardly why trying to tell us that all the time you knew she wasn't that good from the beginning. You know, a synthetic specialist who never faced the best, yada, yada, yada. That will certainly make your day. The least you could do is grow a pair of b@lls and man up and tell us how you really feel about Zen. We all know anyway.


MOT could add another million "points" to his list and I would still agree with this assessment.

[chinook pass]

"The best fillies and mares in the country ran in the BC Ladies Classic last year and Zenyatta faced and beat one of them."

Wow. Implying that a mare is ducking mares in the BC Ladies Classic by running in the BC Classic instead? Seriously?

It's official, I have now seen it all.

Carbonite I actually think you are wrong. I don't think this mare will ever get the credit she deserves......and I think that will remain so regardless of what happens this year.

[ManOTaz]

Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Nah she just faced the best males in 2009 as well as the top mares (including one name above) all throughout her 2008 season.

She did not face Quality Road unfortunately. She did not face Sea The Stars.

She faced the best horses that were available...and she trounced them.

I repeatedly said last year she did, indeed, face and beat the strongest field assembled in North America that year. But nop one denies that. My point was the rest of her races.


I think it's important to give full record context and credit where it is due. That said, much like Dave expressed, I found her campaign last year (aside from the BCC) a bit anticlimatic and am much less interested in her maintaining a perfect record than in seeing her mettle against top competition on dirt this year (which I think is very likely given the capstone of the season is not on synthetic and the Mosses want to cement her legacy as more than a synthetic specialist).

Well, I am hoping that she can do both...maintain her undefeated status AND test her mettle against some more top competition.



"The best fillies and mares in the country ran in the BC Ladies Classic last year and Zenyatta faced and beat one of them."

Wow. Implying that a mare is ducking mares in the BC Ladies Classic by running in the BC Classic instead? Seriously?

It's official, I have now seen it all.

Carbonite I actually think you are wrong. I don't think this mare will ever get the credit she deserves......and I think that will remain so regardless of what happens this year.


No. I never said she ducked anyone. Zenyatta has overcome each and every challenge that has been presented against her. Please try and not twist my words. I speak plainly enough it should not be too much of a stretch.

Do you deny that she did not face the horses I mentioned?

Why would stating a fact like that be so offensive to you?

If you said that Rachel did not face the best field of horses assembled in 2009...I would say...IMHO you are right... but when I make the same statement for Zenyatta I am not giving her the respect she deserves...

Can you see where your extrapolation here is faulty?





Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Do I think she would have beaten these horses? Most of them yes. On Pro Ride. Absolutely. But the fact is that she did not face them.

Am I disparaging Zenyatta? I do not think so. I am stating a fact. But carbonite (and others) would certainly argue that I am because he happens to disagree with the assessment.

MOT.....I disagree with your assessments. Personally for me, I don't think there's a better race horse out there. I've thought Zenyatta's the best for a long time now. You mention Pro Ride as an advantage to her. I think she's even better on dirt. But what bothers me about you MOT, is that you don't have the huevos to tell us that you are not a Zen fan. Big deal. So you're not a fan of hers. Who cares. For some odd reason you feel the need to "try" and deceive us by telling us ever so often that you are a fan of hers. Bs. We're pretty much all on to you. "If" Z ever loses you will at least celebrate inwardly why trying to tell us that all the time you knew she wasn't that good from the beginning. You know, a synthetic specialist who never faced the best, yada, yada, yada. That will certainly make your day. The least you could do is grow a pair of b@lls and man up and tell us how you really feel about Zen. We all know anyway.


I do not disagree with you. I agree with you. From what I have seen Zenyatta is the best race horse running in America right now. I think she is better than Rachel Alexandra which is why I have repeatedly said in any race between the two horses that she would be the betting favorite and would deserve to be.

Pro Ride is not an advantage to her...it is a disadvantage to her competitors.You should know this better than I do. Shirreffs says that she likes dirt better than synthetic surfaces...but she is able to tolerate the synthetic surface while other horses do not do so as well as she does.

TK -- we have discusssed Zenyatta before...and the mere fact that I do not demonstrate the same level of reverence to the object of your affection...Zenyatta...that you and the other fans of Zenyatta do...does not mean that I do not wish her well.

I wear my heart on my sleeve...you can probably tell that...I do not mince words...I am passionate about horse racing and I allow it to show...and despite your being "bothered" at some concocted belief that you have that I do not like Zenyatta has little impact on me...because I have tried to express my feelings ad nauseum to you and others in this regard and you continue to try and divine deceptive motives...etc.

My purpose has only been to argue for Zenyatta to be able to demonstrate just how good she is...

That appears to be happening this year...with her being campaigned appropriately and I have little doubt that she will be 2010 HOTY...as a result.

What I find so interesting is that you and others make it your purpose to try and extort out of me some secret wish that I will Zenyatta ill. I would gladly take a lie detector test on any of this. I have always cheered Zenyatta on since I became aware of her presence on the racing scene. The fact that you cannot believe that I think tells more about you than it does about me.

And I think you know better than any of us...that losing one race does not prove the quality of a horse...and the suggestion that I would revel in such a result again is more a reflection on you than me...

I think you (and others) would know quite well how I felt about Zenyatta if you stopped trying to read between the lines and actually read what I wrote...but I will not be surprised if my feelings revealed on page after page here remain a mystery to you... :wink:

[SecretariatForever]

The best fillies and mares in the country ran in the BC Ladies Classic last year and Zenyatta faced and beat one of them. Now, it just so happens the horse that Zenyatta beat mulitple times was the horse that won the race.... However, nowhere in those races had Life Is Sweet performed racing Zenyatta as she did in her GI Santa Margarita victory or her Ladies Classic victory...is that Zenyatta's fault...of course not...but it remains a factor...I think.

This to me sounds like you are saying Zenyatta should have skipped the BCC and ran in the Ladies Classic against the mares instead. No offense but have you been hiding under a rock the past few years? :huh:

I ain't buying that Life is Sweet didn't perform to her ability any of the times Zen faced and beat her. You're saying that Life is Sweet ran her best only twice, and that happened to coincidentally be when she didn't face Zenyatta. wow.

You stated one fact in the above and that is "Now, it just so happens the horse that Zenyatta beat mulitple times was the horse that won the race" So there ya have it. She faced the Ladies Classic winner more than a couple of times and easily defeated her everytime...there was absolutely no need for her to keep doing that by running in the Ladies Classic again.




Zenyatta did not face the best fillies and mares last year. That is a fact. She did not face Rachel Alexandra, Icon Project, Careless Jewel, Music Note, and many others.

Do I think she would have beaten these horses? Most of them yes. On Pro Ride. Absolutely. But the fact is that she did not face them.


And this is exactly why you get targeted by so many posters here. You come up with the most bogus crap.

Rachel didn't face any of those girls either. So let's not downgrade Zenyatta for not facing them last year when the other top girl didn't face either of them also.

How was Zenyatta suppose to face Careless Jewel when CJ was running in races for 3 year old fillies only? Another question, why should she have to face Music Note when she beat her as easily as possible in the 2008 Ladies Classic? Rachel had her opportunities to face Zenyatta, they were going to go to the Beldame, Rachel's connections decided elsewhere so Zen's connections decided there was no point in going, and Rachel could have run in the big one, the Classic, and where was she? Sitting in her stall. And as for Icon Project, she didn't become a "top" filly or mare until her Personal Ensign romp....which that ended up being her last race. So how was Zenyatta suppose to race her? Enter the Personal Ensign? Consider this, before the race was run last year it didn't look like there was anyone that special in it.





Am I disparaging Zenyatta? I do not think so. I am stating a fact.


Where are the facts?

[teb]

Don't know why I'm replying to this but here goes. Not Zenyatta's fault that when she wins it isn't in a field of horses people want to see her run against.

She is a great mare whom I just love to watch. I also love Rachel and the thrills she has given me too. And I used to gallop Serena's Song and I hate that someone posted that she was in 22 Grade 1's and lost 12. She won 10 and she was a heck of a mare. At the time she was a filly everyone enjoyed and rooted for.

Look I am someone who used to say, "well who is she really beating in the mare division in California." But after the BC there wasn't any way I could say that anymore.

No matter how good any horse is, there is always someone who will say, "Well she hasn't beat much, of course she's good." Never really understood that myself because a horse can only beat what shows up.And in Grade 1 races you have good horses.

Anyway, just some random ramblings of an old racetracker!

Terri

[Diver67]

Just in case we think we are beset by conspiracy theorists, over at Paceadvantage it has been suggested that John Shirreffs made sure that Zenyatta would beat Life is Sweet last summer by either undertraining or overtraining the latter. :shocked: Then once he knew that Zenyatta was headed for the Classic, he was able to train LIS up to her real potential for the Ladies.

[SecretariatForever]

Just in case we think we are beset by conspiracy theorists, over at Paceadvantage it has been suggested that John Shirreffs made sure that Zenyatta would beat Life is Sweet last summer by either undertraining or overtraining the latter. :shocked: Then once he knew that Zenyatta was headed for the Classic, he was able to train LIS up to her real potential for the Ladies.


The things people come up with. MOT, did you make that^^ one up? Just curious.

[chinook pass]

No. I never said she ducked anyone.

That's why I used the word implied, which I believe is correct.



Zenyatta has overcome each and every challenge that has been presented against her. Please try and not twist my words. I speak plainly enough it should not be too much of a stretch.

Trust me, it isn't much of a stretch.



Do you deny that she did not face the horses I mentioned?

Do I deny? Nice lawyerspeak there fella, real impressive. Of course I don't. I was simply pointing out that your reference to the BC Ladies Classic was irrelevant because she faced another field that day that was significantly better.


Why would stating a fact like that be so offensive to you?

What a silly question. Why would you think it was offensive to me?


If you said that Rachel did not face the best field of horses assembled in 2009...I would say...IMHO you are right...

Could you maybe help me out here by getting into a little more detail about what on earth you are talking about? I never mentioned Rachel.


but when I make the same statement for Zenyatta I am not giving her the respect she deserves...

This is amazing, now you've lost even yourself. The statement you made was that Zenyatta didn't face the best fillies/mares last year, noting that many of them were in the BC Ladies Classic. I noted that since she defeated a much tougher field in the BC Classic that bringing in the BC Ladies Classic was......you know.....pretty much pointless.


Can you see where your extrapolation here is faulty?


Oh trust me, I see a good deal of "faulty" going on here. I don't think it lies quite where you think it does.

[SoS]

She did not face Quality Road unfortunately. She did not face Sea The Stars.

She faced the best horses that were available...and she trounced them.

Just like Rachel. But they can only face who was on the track with them - can't fault either girl for who wasn't.



I repeatedly said last year she did, indeed, face and beat the strongest field assembled in North America that year. But nop one denies that. My point was the rest of her races.

She did race before 2009 you know. Why not take into account her voluminous & challenging 2008 campaign and entire career instead of revolving around only 5 races of it.



...maintain her undefeated status AND test her mettle against some more top competition.

Even if she could manage such a feat, it wouldn't satisfy you.

[ManOTaz]

No. I never said she ducked anyone.

That's why I used the word implied, which I believe is correct.

I was just stating a fact. Why don't you leave the armchair psychoanalysis to a profession...nowhere did I say or imply that she ducked anyone. I told you I speak plaintly you said it wasn't a stretch and yet you persist in trying to read things into my words... :grin:


Zenyatta has overcome each and every challenge that has been presented against her. Please try and not twist my words. I speak plainly enough it should not be too much of a stretch.

Trust me, it isn't much of a stretch.

Well, it seems that it is for you...see above... :wink:



Do you deny that she did not face the horses I mentioned?

Do I deny? Nice lawyerspeak there fella, real impressive. Of course I don't. I was simply pointing out that your reference to the BC Ladies Classic was irrelevant because she faced another field that day that was significantly better.

Yes, and if you viewed the post in context...as a response to Dave who was dealing with carbonite's reaction to his statement questioning the competitiveness of the field she faced last year...OUTSIDE OF THE BREEDERS CUP...


Why would stating a fact like that be so offensive to you?

What a silly question. Why would you think it was offensive to me?

Well, because you felt a need to twist my words and read things into them that were not there.


If you said that Rachel did not face the best field of horses assembled in 2009...I would say...IMHO you are right...

Could you maybe help me out here by getting into a little more detail about what on earth you are talking about? I never mentioned Rachel.

Well, it was the use of an analogy...rather using Zenyatta as the object of the statement...I substituted her rival for HOTY last year...Rachel Alexandra...and I indicated that you would likely have little problem with a statement I made regarding the quality of the field that she faced...but you seem to have a distinct problem with a similar statement made regarding Zenyatta.


but when I make the same statement for Zenyatta I am not giving her the respect she deserves...

This is amazing, now you've lost even yourself. The statement you made was that Zenyatta didn't face the best fillies/mares last year, noting that many of them were in the BC Ladies Classic. I noted that since she defeated a much tougher field in the BC Classic that bringing in the BC Ladies Classic was......you know.....pretty much pointless.

Again if you examine the context in which I was responding it is perfectly clear. carbonite was contexting Dave's statement...and I was defending it. The issue was never whether the field in the BC Classic was superior to the Ladies Classic...the issue was the quality of her competition in her races against fillies in mares...her other four races...and given that the BC races are supposed to be a representation of the best still healthy and running at the end of the year...the fact that Zenyatta had not raced and beaten any but one of the best fillies and mares in the country...I believe made a case that the horses she faced were not top quality horses...save one...Life Is Sweet.


Can you see where your extrapolation here is faulty?


Oh trust me, I see a good deal of "faulty" going on here. I don't think it lies quite where you think it does.


Why am I not surprised that is your point of view... :cool:





She did not face Quality Road unfortunately. She did not face Sea The Stars.

She faced the best horses that were available...and she trounced them.

Just like Rachel. But they can only face who was on the track with them - can't fault either girl for who wasn't.

Yes. Just like Rachel. And I understand that they can only face who is entered in a race with them...to a certain extent. But some owners look for races in which the competition represents a greater challenge. She could have run in the Hollywood Gold Cup. She could have run at Churchill Downs. She could have run in the Pacific Classic. Rachel stepped up in class multiple times and Zenyatta did so once. So, let us try and keep matters in proper context.


I repeatedly said last year she did, indeed, face and beat the strongest field assembled in North America that year. But nop one denies that. My point was the rest of her races.

She did race before 2009 you know. Why not take into account her voluminous & challenging 2008 campaign and entire career instead of revolving around only 5 races of it.

Yes, she did. But the nature of the discussion I was responding to was between Dave and carbonite which focused just on last year. :wink:


...maintain her undefeated status AND test her mettle against some more top competition.

Even if she could manage such a feat, it wouldn't satisfy you.


If you have been listening...Zenyatta exceeded my expectations and became an all time great when she notched 13 wins...even before the Breeders Cup. Everything she has done since...has been icing on the cake in my book...but then to acknowledge that wouldn't allow you all to continue to rail against me then...would it? :azn:




This to me sounds like you are saying Zenyatta should have skipped the BCC and ran in the Ladies Classic against the mares instead. No offense but have you been hiding under a rock the past few years? :huh:

I ain't buying that Life is Sweet didn't perform to her ability any of the times Zen faced and beat her. You're saying that Life is Sweet ran her best only twice, and that happened to coincidentally be when she didn't face Zenyatta. wow.

You stated one fact in the above and that is "Now, it just so happens the horse that Zenyatta beat mulitple times was the horse that won the race" So there ya have it. She faced the Ladies Classic winner more than a couple of times and easily defeated her everytime...there was absolutely no need for her to keep doing that by running in the Ladies Classic again.

I was not saying that at all. If you examine my response in proper context as I noted to chinook...I was responding to a discussion that Dave and carbonite were having in which carbonite was taking issue with Dave's statement that Zenyatta's competition last year was somewhat lacking...in races other than the Breeders Cup. I hope this explanation sets things right for you.

Regarding Life Is Sweet....I would accept your statement if you can identify any evidence at all to offer that Life Is Sweet was at her best in facing Zenyatta in one race..what credible data or case can you make. My case is rerpesented by her BSFs...where she scored much higher in these races without Zenyatta...and against Zenyatta she was at least five points slower...also she raced Zenyatta three times in 2009 and finished second...only once...in the Vanity...where she hit a 100 BSF...in the other two races she finished out of the money with a 91 and 93 BSF...so which of these performances was she at her best?

I am glad she ran in the Classic. I did not want her to run in the LC again. That was not my point.


And this is exactly why you get targeted by so many posters here. You come up with the most bogus crap.

Rachel didn't face any of those girls either. So let's not downgrade Zenyatta for not facing them last year when the other top girl didn't face either of them also.

Ah, but Rachel did face other horses that won Grade I races...after she faced them...and beat them...which ones did Zenyatta face that won Grade I or other stakes races last year after she faced them? Only one...Life Is Sweet...


How was Zenyatta suppose to face Careless Jewel when CJ was running in races for 3 year old fillies only? Another question, why should she have to face Music Note when she beat her as easily as possible in the 2008 Ladies Classic? Rachel had her opportunities to face Zenyatta, they were going to go to the Beldame, Rachel's connections decided elsewhere so Zen's connections decided there was no point in going, and Rachel could have run in the big one, the Classic, and where was she? Sitting in her stall. And as for Icon Project, she didn't become a "top" filly or mare until her Personal Ensign romp....which that ended up being her last race. So how was Zenyatta suppose to race her? Enter the Personal Ensign? Consider this, before the race was run last year it didn't look like there was anyone that special in it.

I never said that Zenyatta should have faced these horses. This is why you really need to pay more close attention to what I write.

I just said she did not. That her competition IN 2009 other than 1 horse...was not high level...and even that 1 horse...never raced at its best against Zenyatta all year.

That is what I said. Prove to me otherwise and I'll concede the point.


Where are the facts?

The facts were that Zenyatta did not face these horses. Do you believe she did? Prove to me that she faced them.

[dr john h]

is it possible to have these "Z is mismanaged/ badly trained/not that talented" discussions in their own threads instead of filling up the Z news thread with pages and pages of quotes?

[SoS]

Yes. Just like Rachel. And I understand that they can only face who is entered in a race with them...to a certain extent. But some owners look for races in which the competition represents a greater challenge. She could have run in the Hollywood Gold Cup. She could have run at Churchill Downs. She could have run in the Pacific Classic. Rachel stepped up in class multiple times and Zenyatta did so once. So, let us try and keep matters in proper context. [/b]

Not to take anything away from Rachel, but the field Zenyatta faced was superior to that of any Rachel faced...if Rachel stepped up, then Zenyatta leaped. But both were the class of each field they were in.



Yes, she did. But the nature of the discussion I was responding to was between Dave and carbonite which focused just on last year.

You never cite her 2008 campaign...very unbecoming of a "fan."




If you have been listening...Zenyatta exceeded my expectations and became an all time great when she notched 13 wins...even before the Breeders Cup. Everything she has done since...has been icing on the cake in my book...but then to acknowledge that wouldn't allow you all to continue to rail against me then...would it? :azn:

I'd say "expose" would be a more apt choice of word, but you've already done that yourself as you seem far more interested in finding fault in than celebrating this horse. I doubt you've even seen 8 of those 13 races that supposedly won you over. You're a Rachel fan...I can relate. You think Zenyatta is overrated...just say so (or better yet, avoid the subject altogether). But enough with the backhanded posts that pi$$ all over a threatening rival in an attempt to elevate Rachel...believe me, Rachel doesn't need your help.

[moonwalker]

I haven't seen this posted anywhere else and since this is Zenyatta news, I thought it would apply. In my Racing Post today was a very small box on who JS thinks Z should go to when she enters the breeding shed.

Might surprise you to know he is recommending Sea The Stars!

Terri


That's interesting news! I heard second hand that a European sire was being considered, but one standing in the U.S. My guesses were Giant's Causeway or Henrythenavigator, since Z's dam has foals with both. Z has an A+ nick with Giant's Causeway on one of the mare nicking services. I've also heard Dottie makes the decision for the Mosses, and she's John the trainer's wife. Must be some interesting discussions at their dinner table. :-)

My vote still goes to Tiznow. Pssstt... Dottie, if you are reading this... TIZNOW!

Mary MMM

[SoS]

I haven't seen this posted anywhere else and since this is Zenyatta news, I thought it would apply. In my Racing Post today was a very small box on who JS thinks Z should go to when she enters the breeding shed.

Might surprise you to know he is recommending Sea The Stars!

Terri


That's interesting news! I heard second hand that a European sire was being considered, but one standing in the U.S. My guesses were Giant's Causeway or Henrythenavigator, since Z's dam has foals with both. Z has an A+ nick with Giant's Causeway on one of the mare nicking services. I've also heard Dottie makes the decision for the Mosses, and she's John the trainer's wife. Must be some interesting discussions at their dinner table. :-)

My vote still goes to Tiznow. Pssstt... Dottie, if you are reading this... TIZNOW!

Mary MMM


Very interesting! Adore STS though I'd prefer to see her go exclusively to proven sires myself (Galileo has possibilities). My first choice would probably be Medaglia (there's some solid Euro background in there), but like any of the names above. Also wonder what she would yield with Hard Spun if he pans out in the shed.

[SecretariatForever]

Sea the Stars? no thanks. There is much better out there for her to be bred to, much better and actually proven sires.

What about Dynaformer? Too risky cause of the size of both? I agree about Tiznow also, but he's also a big horse.

[ManOTaz]

Yes. Just like Rachel. And I understand that they can only face who is entered in a race with them...to a certain extent. But some owners look for races in which the competition represents a greater challenge. She could have run in the Hollywood Gold Cup. She could have run at Churchill Downs. She could have run in the Pacific Classic. Rachel stepped up in class multiple times and Zenyatta did so once. So, let us try and keep matters in proper context. [/b]

Not to take anything away from Rachel, but the field Zenyatta faced was superior to that of any Rachel faced...if Rachel stepped up, than Zenyatta leaped. But both were the class of each field they were in.


Yes, she did. But the nature of the discussion I was responding to was between Dave and carbonite which focused just on last year.

You never cite her 2008 campaign...very unbecoming of a "fan."

So, a fan does not engage in rational thought? I guess that would explain a lot with you folks. I note to you that my response was aimed at the context of the 2009 campaign because that was the nature of Dave's post and carbonite's response...and you suggest that because I did not respond with her 2008 effort...I am not a fan?

That makes no sense. :grin:


Even if she could manage such a feat, it wouldn't satisfy you.


If you have been listening...Zenyatta exceeded my expectations and became an all time great when she notched 13 wins...even before the Breeders Cup. Everything she has done since...has been icing on the cake in my book...but then to acknowledge that wouldn't allow you all to continue to rail against me then...would it? :azn:

I'd say "expose" would be a more apt choice of word, but you've already done that yourself as you seem far more interested in finding fault in than celebrating this horse. I doubt you've even seen 8 of those 13 races that supposedly won you over. You're a Rachel fan...I can relate. You think Zenyatta is overrated...just say so (or better yet, avoid the subject altogether). But enough with the backhanded posts that pi$$ all over a threatening rival in an attempt to elevate Rachel...beleive me, Rachel doesn't need your help.
[/quote]

As a fan of Zenyatta, I have actually been yearning to have an honest discussion with other Zenyatta fans...but that seems to be impossible because any discussion of facts...is twisted...

Here I state a simple fact that Zenyatta did not face certain horses...and the responses vary from:

1. How come you are not discussing Rachel...she did not face those horses either.
2. Are you suggesting that she run in the Ladies Classic instead of the BC Classic.
3. MOT why don't you just come clean and say you do not like Zenyatta.
Etc. etc. etc. :azn:

I do not think Zenyatta is overrated at all unless someone suggests that she is the best horse to ever run...and at this point seeing what she has done IMHO...I would argue with that assessment...but anything short of that I think a pretty good case can be made.

So...do I think she is overrated...not at all. I actually think she is underrated. I thought she could muscle the boys from 2008 on...but wondered why her connections never thought to make the effort. Certainly after she won the Ladies Classic...in 2009...I wondered what we would see...and starting her in late May...well that was disappointing...not because I thought she was underrated...but because she demonstrated so much potential...

There again with the second guessing me...with the "backhanded" posts.... (rolleyes)

Trying to read between the lines again when there is nothing to see... :smiley:

And having been asked to cease and desist on this thread...I will respect those wishes...

[moonwalker]

Sea the Stars? no thanks. There is much better out there for her to be bred to, much better and actually proven sires.

What about Dynaformer? Too risky cause of the size of both? I agree about Tiznow also, but he's also a big horse.


Dynaformer is by Roberto, and Zenyatta's damsire is Kris S., a son of Roberto. That's 2X4 to Roberto.
Depends how you feel about inbreeding. Big Brown was 3x3 to Northern Dancer.

Hypothetical Mating Dynaformer x Zenyatta:

http://www.equineline.com/Free-5X-Pedigree.cfm?page_state=ORDER_AND_CONFIRM&sire_ref erence_number=1049059&dam_reference_number=7156465 &color=+&sex=+&hypo_foaling_year=&breeder=&nicking _stats_indicator=Y&x=41&y=13

Somebody in another forum mentioned Rock Hard Ten, a son of Kris. S. That would make the foal 2X3 to Kris S.

Mary MMM

[SecretariatForever]

I'm not a huge fan of inbreeding, I think that's why the breed is as it is today, but Dynaformer has produced some sturdy, good horses that can run on anything, run a distance of ground, and stick around for a while. Seems like the perfect match for Zenyatta, who herself is strong, and stayed strong into her 6 year old career, and can run all day.

I'd hate to see her go to anyone that has produced too many unsound horses that can barely go 1 1/8.

[The Colonel]

Sea the Stars? no thanks. There is much better out there for her to be bred to, much better and actually proven sires.

What about Dynaformer? Too risky cause of the size of both? I agree about Tiznow also, but he's also a big horse.


If the Mosses campaign Zenyatta's get like they did her I don't think we'd have to worry too much about size (unless we're talking Holy Roller big). *is hoping for a TiznowxZenyatta somewhere down the line*

[SecretariatForever]

Regarding Life Is Sweet....I would accept your statement if you can identify any evidence at all to offer that Life Is Sweet was at her best in facing Zenyatta in one race..what credible data or case can you make. My case is rerpesented by her BSFs...where she scored much higher in these races without Zenyatta...and against Zenyatta she was at least five points slower...also she raced Zenyatta three times in 2009 and finished second...only once...in the Vanity...where she hit a 100 BSF...in the other two races she finished out of the money with a 91 and 93 BSF...so which of these performances was she at her best?

The fact that all you have to try and prove anything are beyer numbers shows how ridiculous you can be.

I suggest you go back and look at the difference of the way the races (The Ladies Classic and the ones where LIS faced Zenyatta) were run (the pace, etc). THAT is what made the difference of the beyer numbers LIS earned.




Ah, but Rachel did face other horses that won Grade I races...after she faced them...and beat them...which ones did Zenyatta face that won Grade I or other stakes races last year after she faced them? Only one...Life Is Sweet...

Which horses we referring to here that Rachel beat and then they went on to win a G1? Summerbird? Oh Zen beat him too. Flashing won one grade 1 after the Mother Goose. That's only 2 horses for Rachel. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. I know Macho Again, Mine That Bird, Bullsbay, Munnings, and quite a few others all didn't.




I never said that Zenyatta should have faced these horses.

No, you're just trying to downgrade her career by saying she didn't face those horses. But guess what she did do? She faced the mare (who happened to beat 2 of those mares in the Ladies Classic) multiple times and beat her easily.



This is why you really need to pay more close attention to what I write.

No thanks. Because trying even harder to understand what you are saying would just make my, and I'm sure I speak for many others here, headache worse.

[Diver67]

There is not enough aspirin in the world for me right now.

[BornToWin]

Terri, from the UK papers to TT--
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/breeding-news/2010/April/14/British-paper-reports-Zenyatta-to-Sea-The-Stars-upon-retirement.aspx

"British paper reports Zenyatta to Sea The Stars upon retirement"

Exciting news. As they say, "the best to the best."

Also from the Daily Mail story (that has a beautiful photo of her), "...The trainer said it was not set in stone that the Stephen Foster Handicap at Churchill Downs on June 12 would be Zarkava?s next goal as she bids for her 17th successive win."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-1265762/EXCLUSIVE-Zenyatta-line-See-The-Stars-date.html#ixzz0l7Wwngqp

[SecretariatForever]

Terri, from the UK papers to TT--
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/breeding-news/2010/April/14/British-paper-reports-Zenyatta-to-Sea-The-Stars-upon-retirement.aspx

"British paper reports Zenyatta to Sea The Stars upon retirement"

Exciting news. As they say, "the best to the best."

Also from the Daily Mail story (that has a beautiful photo of her), "...The trainer said it was not set in stone that the Stephen Foster Handicap at Churchill Downs on June 12 would be Zarkava?s next goal as she bids for her 17th successive win."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/racing/article-1265762/EXCLUSIVE-Zenyatta-line-See-The-Stars-date.html#ixzz0l7Wwngqp



Zarkava is 16 for 16 also? :huh: lol

[BornToWin]

Found this story by Sam Walker in the Racing Post we "Zennies" can relish--"Zenyatta-mania grips the States after sweet sixteen"

"...The frenzy around the colossal six-year-old seems to be growing race by race and if marriage proposals are on the table this early in the campaign one can only imagine what the superstar can expect at the Breeders' Cup in November.

She is stealing hearts across the US and it is not only because of her flawless career record, nor just for the character she shows in playing up to the big occasion, prancing and bowing for the crowd, but it is also for what she represents as a female dominating in the predominantly male world of racing..."

"...This Zenyatta-mania is not a one-way street, however. Far from it. While the fans may follow her avidly, taking pictures, posting videos on YouTube, waving banners, cheering for her and shouting requests for her to 'dance', Zenyatta always, without exception, repays them with the performance of a true star.

With such supreme ability she did not need to create a niche for herself as a showgirl, but it all comes as part of the queen-size package that is Zenyatta - and America loves it.

Regular rider Mike Smith believes she is better than ever this year and, of Friday's success, said: "She did it well, well within herself."

Four-and-a-quarter lengths was the official margin back to Taptam, but if Smith was to have pressed the button the distance could have been anything..."

http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-racing/oaklawn-park-zenyatta-mania-grips-the-states-april-12/702602/latest/

[carbonite]

3. I don't believe the Mosses and Z have "ducked" anyone. Nor have I ever argued (or intentionally implied) that Z faces "weak" competition. The fillies/mares in her races look weak because she always beats them easily, usually under hand rides.


I agree with what you say here. I don't believe it is easily reconciled with what you have said before. I would prefer to believe that your sentiments are what you say they are here.

[carbonite]

Carbonite,

Your original post said to name fillies who had COMPETED in G1 races, NOT WON them.


Yeah. But just because you quit reading doesn't mean I had quit typing:


Make me a list of the number of fillies in the last 100 years who have competed in more G1 (or even more G1 and G2) races than Zenyatta. I'm not sure how many you'll find; honestly, I'm not sure if you will find any. But I know none of them will have been as successful as Zenyatta has been. None of them.

There's something to be said for not giving up too soon.

[Hermes Redux]

Depends on how you define success Carb. Silverbulletday had two championships locked up by the age that Z made her debut...
Azeri won 3 Older Filly or Mare Eclipses and HOY. Serena won 17 grades stakes.

I don't think her specific graded stakes tally is the measure of Z's greatness.

But the way she does it...is.

[carbonite]

You've been away, come back late, and not caught up to the conversation. This particular thread has been about the claim that Zenyatta has avoided quality opponents. It takes a remarkably good horse to duck quality opposition in Grade 1 races, over and over again.

[Hermes Redux]

You've been away, come back late, and not caught up to the conversation. This particular thread has been about the claim that Zenyatta has avoided quality opponents. It takes a remarkably good horse to duck quality opposition in Grade 1 races, over and over again.


Translation: "Hermes, several of the posters here called me out on the inane assertion that Zenyatta has more Gr. 1 (or Gr. 2) wins than any other mare of the past 100 years, or has competed in more, because we all know that is all that determines the quality of competition (at least when it comes to my enduring defense of Anabaa's Creation) and really, it was another example of me hitting that post button too fast. Welcome back."

Thanks Carb;)

ps I bet Macho Again can beat Anabaa, especially now that she is preggers...

[carbonite]

The claim was--and remains--a better record against G1 competition (and if you want, G1 and G2 competition) than any filly in the past 50 or 100 years. In spite of the fact that the most vitriolic--like yourself--insist on denigrating her level of competition as substandard.

When you were gone, it was nice and quiet. Then, they let you out and we have to go back and forth like this. Relax. Take a pill. Settle down. You'll live longer and have fewer ulcers. Try meditation. It can't hurt.

[Hermes Redux]

The claim was--and remains--a better record against G1 competition (and if you want, G1 and G2 competition) than any filly in the past 50 or 100 years. In spite of the fact that the most vitriolic--like yourself--insist on denigrating her level of competition as substandard.

When you were gone, it was nice and quiet. Then, they let you out and we have to go back and forth like this. Relax. Take a pill. Settle down. You'll live longer and have fewer ulcers. Try meditation. It can't hurt.


Translation: "Hermes, I'm back pedlin' as FAST as I can here, still trying to figure out why I think the Big Mare needs ANY defense except in my imagination, and I wish you wouldn't call me out as I think I'm able to steamroll most here. Please go away. BTW, how many Gr. 1's has Taptam raced in - do you have that handy?"

No, Carb, I'm afraid I don't. But I would say zero before April 9. I'm here for you. :evil:

[Curlin]

Carbonite,

Your original post said to name fillies who had COMPETED in G1 races, NOT WON them.


Yeah. But just because you quit reading doesn't mean I had quit typing:


Make me a list of the number of fillies in the last 100 years who have competed in more G1 (or even more G1 and G2) races than Zenyatta. I'm not sure how many you'll find; honestly, I'm not sure if you will find any. But I know none of them will have been as successful as Zenyatta has been. None of them.

There's something to be said for not giving up too soon.


There's also something to be said for selective memory, or rather how you parse what is saved to your memory bank. If success is measured by the percentage of races at high level a horse wins, then yes Zenyatta does exceed any other G1 level filly or mare in the last 1/2 century or more. She's won 16 for 16, and 14 of those have been graded stakes. That's 100%.

But if you measure success by the total number of stakes wins, Bayakoa, for example, had more total graded stakes wins. She just didn't happen to win them all. That, by your definition, makes her less successful.

And I don't know why I'm even bothering to address your snarky response because this entire thread has fallen into a morass of ridiculousness.

[Rick1323]

Morass....I have always liked that word. I can spell it and it is easy to pronounce. It would make a good name for a horse. We need to find more uses for that word.

[ElPrado]

This thread has descended into a morass of BS. :tongue:
Every time the subject is brought up it sinks farther. :laugh:
Do you guys think you could maybe screech at each other in a PM? :undecided:
You are getting a bit carried away. :police:

[ezgoerbaby]

hermes. I missed you. LOL

[carbonite]

Morass....I have always liked that word. I can spell it and it is easy to pronounce. It would make a good name for a horse. We need to find more uses for that word.


How about:

Face it: Zenyatta wins because she's got morass than the competition.

[ElPrado]

Face it. :evil: This has gotten a bit over aged.

[moonwalker]

How about:

Face it: Zenyatta wins because she's got morass than the competition.


LMAO! Laughing Morass Off !

Mary MMM

[ManOTaz]

Morass....I have always liked that word. I can spell it and it is easy to pronounce. It would make a good name for a horse. We need to find more uses for that word.


How about:

Face it: Zenyatta wins because she's got her competitors see morass of hers than the competition.

[Curlin]

Morass....I have always liked that word. I can spell it and it is easy to pronounce. It would make a good name for a horse. We need to find more uses for that word.


How about:

Face it: Zenyatta wins because she's got her competitors see morass of hers than the competition.



I'm gratified to know that one of the words I used in a post has becoming the TBC Vocabulary Word for the Day! :grin:

[Jeff]

Since my post last night, several people have (while expressing disbelief that I would even contemplate the idea that Zenyatta is not ducking competition) brought forward names of fillies who have attempted more.

Just for the record, I mentioned Bayakoa and Paseana as accomplished distaffers who each had tried a relatively high number of Grade I and I races.

I do not personally share the views of many of those here who want to diminish Zenyatta. I was merely tossing out a couple of runners as a way to give the "discussion" some context.

Not that there is really a rational discussion ensuing, I'm afraid. For what it's worth, I lean much more toward carbonite's view than those of others here. Maybe not with quite as much certainty and conviction, but very much in that direction.

I felt, and feel, that Rachel had the better campaign for HOY honors. I do not feel she's a better racehorse than Zenyatta. And I wonder why some feel so obligated to keep trying to prove she is.

[Rick1323]

Since my post last night, several people have (while expressing disbelief that I would even contemplate the idea that Zenyatta is not ducking competition) brought forward names of fillies who have attempted more.

Just for the record, I mentioned Bayakoa and Paseana as accomplished distaffers who each had tried a relatively high number of Grade I and I races.

I do not personally share the views of many of those here who want to diminish Zenyatta. I was merely tossing out a couple of runners as a way to give the "discussion" some context.

Not that there is really a rational discussion ensuing, I'm afraid. For what it's worth, I lean much more toward carbonite's view than those of others here. Maybe not with quite as much certainty and conviction, but very much in that direction.

I felt, and feel, that Rachel had the better campaign for HOY honors. I do not feel she's a better racehorse than Zenyatta. And I wonder why some feel so obligated to keep trying to prove she is.


I have been able to ascertain that it has something to do with morass. Still a preliminary conclusion though. I need to see the Beyers before I make up my mind.

[Curlin]

I felt, and feel, that Rachel had the better campaign for HOY honors. I do not feel she's a better racehorse than Zenyatta. And I wonder why some feel so obligated to keep trying to prove she is.


That pretty much sums up how I feel too, Jeff.

Now back to her speculative schedule. I'd like to see 4 races in her before the BCC - 2 in her own division and 2 against boys. My choice for boys races are the HGC and SF. Against the girls, not sure. I don't remember when the Del Cap is scheduled, but the Beldame certainly could be one of the choices, unless she runs again in her now eponymous race at Oak Tree. I don't see her running again at Del Mar, period.

[ManOTaz]

I felt, and feel, that Rachel had the better campaign for HOY honors. I do not feel she's a better racehorse than Zenyatta. And I wonder why some feel so obligated to keep trying to prove she is.


That pretty much sums up how I feel too, Jeff.

Now back to her speculative schedule. I'd like to see 4 races in her before the BCC - 2 in her own division and 2 against boys. My choice for boys races are the HGC and SF. Against the girls, not sure. I don't remember when the Del Cap is scheduled, but the Beldame certainly could be one of the choices, unless she runs again in her now eponymous race at Oak Tree. I don't see her running again at Del Mar, period.


I hope she is not returning to CA until after the BC...

I would like to see her face the boys only once beforehand.

No need to strain her too much...even though it seems like a cake walk when she races against anyone.

I like the SF...because of the BC being at Churchill.

However, I still am cheering for the Whitney at Saratoga where she could take on Quality Road and perhaps even Rachel.

I agree with the Beldame as an excellent prep...for the BC Classic.

[carbonite]

That would be a wonderful campaign. It would also make the Classic the seventh start of her 6yo season. Does anyone have past performance information on the last few Breeders Cup cards? That seems to me to be somewhat ambitious by current standards. The most recent pps I have at my fingertips are 2006, which was (I believe) the last Churchill Downs BC. Excluding the juvenile races, here's how the fields looked in terms of campaign length:
F&M Turf 6 of 10 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who was making her 8th start;
Sprint 8 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had made 5 starts;
Mile 6 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Distaff 12 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times;
Turf 9 of 11 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Classic 6 of 13 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times.

Six races with 76 starters, of whom 47 (64%) had started six or more times and 29 (36%) had started five or fewer times. Those with 6 or more starts won 6% of the time; those with 5 or fewer won 10% of the time. My perception has been that in subsequent years, the proportion of those campaign lengths has more or less reversed, but I could be misremembering.

[ManOTaz]

That would be a wonderful campaign. It would also make the Classic the seventh start of her 6yo season. Does anyone have past performance information on the last few Breeders Cup cards? That seems to me to be somewhat ambitious by current standards. The most recent pps I have at my fingertips are 2006, which was (I believe) the last Churchill Downs BC. Excluding the juvenile races, here's how the fields looked in terms of campaign length:
F&M Turf 6 of 10 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who was making her 8th start;
Sprint 8 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had made 5 starts;
Mile 6 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Distaff 12 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times;
Turf 9 of 11 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Classic 6 of 13 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times.

Six races with 76 starters, of whom 47 (64%) had started six or more times and 29 (36%) had started five or fewer times. Those with 6 or more starts won 6% of the time; those with 5 or fewer won 10% of the time. My perception has been that in subsequent years, the proportion of those campaign lengths has more or less reversed, but I could be misremembering.


Well, if you look at the number of races the HOTYs have had 7 is about right... :wink:

RA - 8
Curlin 08 - 7
Curlin 07 - 9
Invasor - 5 (including UAE Derby)
Saint Liam - 6
Ghostzapper - 4
Mineshaft - 8
Azeri - 9
Point Given - 7

[carbonite]

That would be a wonderful campaign. It would also make the Classic the seventh start of her 6yo season. Does anyone have past performance information on the last few Breeders Cup cards? That seems to me to be somewhat ambitious by current standards. The most recent pps I have at my fingertips are 2006, which was (I believe) the last Churchill Downs BC. Excluding the juvenile races, here's how the fields looked in terms of campaign length:
F&M Turf 6 of 10 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who was making her 8th start;
Sprint 8 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had made 5 starts;
Mile 6 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Distaff 12 of 14 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times;
Turf 9 of 11 starters had started 6 or more times, including the winner who had started 6 times;
Classic 6 of 13 starters had started 6 or more times, but not the winner who had started 4 times.

Six races with 76 starters, of whom 47 (64%) had started six or more times and 29 (36%) had started five or fewer times. Those with 6 or more starts won 6% of the time; those with 5 or fewer won 10% of the time. My perception has been that in subsequent years, the proportion of those campaign lengths has more or less reversed, but I could be misremembering.


Well, if you look at the number of races the HOTYs have had 7 is about right... :wink:

Yes and no. Look closer when considering the full campaign:


RA - 8 3yo; No BC
Curlin 08 - 7 Older; lost BC
Curlin 07 - 9 3yo; won BC
Invasor - 5 (including UAE Derby) Older; won BC
Saint Liam - 6 Older; won BC
Ghostzapper - 4 Older; won BC
Mineshaft - 8 Older; no BC
Azeri - 9 Older filly; won Distaff, no Classic
Point Given - 7 3yo; no BC


If you are planning a campaign for older horses culminating in a victory in the richest race, the pattern tends to go to lighter prep campaigns. The longer campaigns on your list belong to 3yos who raced mainly against their own age group. Of the four on your list who concluded a horse of the year campaign with a Classic victory, one was a 3yo who started twice against older horses; the other three came into that race off campaigns of 3, 4, and 5 starts.

[ManOTaz]

Then if you look at the only other horse to win the BC Classic twice...

He ran 5 races before the Classic...

So, that would aim for 6 total races for Zenyatta this year if she duplicates Tiznow's race count...which is what I have been suggesting all along with the schedule I projected for her on the QR thread... :wink:

I do suggest a possibility of 7 for QR though if he stays healthy...but if he were to win the Classic...I think they would probably retire him...

[JT Dancer]

I'm hoping she runs in the Stephen Foster and the Hollywood Gold Cup, then takes a break, finds a race in October at Belmont or Churchill, then the BCC.

[Citation07]

I'm hoping she runs in the Stephen Foster and the Hollywood Gold Cup, then takes a break, finds a race in October at Belmont or Churchill, then the BCC.


I love this schedule, except I might add something in September. But if this is her schedule for the rest of the year, I would be over the moon.

[Curlin]

I'm hoping she runs in the Stephen Foster and the Hollywood Gold Cup, then takes a break, finds a race in October at Belmont or Churchill, then the BCC.


I love this schedule, except I might add something in September. But if this is her schedule for the rest of the year, I would be over the moon.


Perhaps if we post enough about it, the Mosses will do it. I figure now would be a good time to take on the boys again, and to break the Citation / Cigar mark of 16 straight at Churchill would be fabulous. Then she could return to her home base at HP for some over-the-top fan gushing. :wink: Oh, and to wallop the boys again.

[Citation07]

I'm hoping she runs in the Stephen Foster and the Hollywood Gold Cup, then takes a break, finds a race in October at Belmont or Churchill, then the BCC.


I love this schedule, except I might add something in September. But if this is her schedule for the rest of the year, I would be over the moon.


Perhaps if we post enough about it, the Mosses will do it. I figure now would be a good time to take on the boys again, and to break the Citation / Cigar mark of 16 straight at Churchill would be fabulous. Then she could return to her home base at HP for some over-the-top fan gushing. :wink: Oh, and to wallop the boys again.


Wouldn't that be wonderful? I'm not going to lie--I want to see her at Hollywood for entirely selfish reasons. I really, really want to see her run in CA in this year at least once more this year (since I missed the Santa Margarita), just so I can see her live again. :smiley:

So disregarding a potential September race, where would you see her going in the October? The JCGC? The Goodwood? The Beldame?

I'm kinda dreaming here, but how about SF June 12, HGC July 10, break in August, [Woodward September 9-possibly], something Oct 2, BCC November 6? That would be a HOY campaign. Lot of shipping though.

[JT Dancer]

For anyone wanting a unique piece of Zenyatta memorabilia...


Also, don't forget she painted one of the Moneighs that will go up for auction on April 25.

http://www.rerun.org/

[brigadier gerard]

I haven't been following this thread, so let me know if this article was already posted:

http://sidfernando.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/a-writer-behind-the-scenes-with-zenyatta-at-oaklawn-park/

[carbonite]

I haven't been following this thread, so let me know if this article was already posted:

http://sidfernando.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/a-writer-behind-the-scenes-with-zenyatta-at-oaklawn-park/


There's a strikingly beautiful photo of her in that article just as she's about to go onto the track when she's being led over for the race.

[ManOTaz]

I'm hoping she runs in the Stephen Foster and the Hollywood Gold Cup, then takes a break, finds a race in October at Belmont or Churchill, then the BCC.


Sending her back to CA to synthetics is not campaigning her...though taking on males in the Hollywood Gold Cup would be something special. It would still put 1/3 od her campaign in CA.

I'd like her to demonstrate she does not need the comfort of home...

I also admit being on the East Coast I would like to keep her here as long as possible to increase the chances to see her... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

Since my post last night, several people have (while expressing disbelief that I would even contemplate the idea that Zenyatta is not ducking competition) brought forward names of fillies who have attempted more.

Just for the record, I mentioned Bayakoa and Paseana as accomplished distaffers who each had tried a relatively high number of Grade I and I races.

I do not personally share the views of many of those here who want to diminish Zenyatta. I was merely tossing out a couple of runners as a way to give the "discussion" some context.

Not that there is really a rational discussion ensuing, I'm afraid. For what it's worth, I lean much more toward carbonite's view than those of others here. Maybe not with quite as much certainty and conviction, but very much in that direction.

I felt, and feel, that Rachel had the better campaign for HOY honors. I do not feel she's a better racehorse than Zenyatta. And I wonder why some feel so obligated to keep trying to prove she is.


Jeff...I agree with a lot of what you have said here...I have not seen anyone on this board who feels "obligated" to prove Rachel to be a better racehorse than Zenyatta. Maybe they are there, but I have not read them.

Some people frankly believe it to be the case that Rachel is a better racehorse than Zenyatta... but it is merely a difference of opinion...are they clouded by passion? Perhaps. Then again, there may be some similarly situated Zenyatta fans in a similar boat.

Based upon the acceleration that Rachel Alexandra has shown...her ability to win impressively on a fast and off track...her margin of victory...these are some factors I think that lead people to believe she is a quality horse capable of dethroning the Queen when at her best.

I have repeatedly said last year and this year...that if they ever did meet that Zenyatta would be favored to win...given that she is a proven older horses and that if they ever were to meet they would be meeting in a situation somewhat new to Rachel having only raced twice against older horses...and somewhat familiar to Zenyatta...she has only raced twice against three year olds... :cool:



IMO this would be the perfect Z-schedule for the rest of the year, barring injuries/form decline/etc:

Stephen Foster June 12
Hollywood Gold Cup July 10
...give her a short break...
Woodward Sept. 4
Goodwood or JCGC (not sure the dates on those)
BC Classic

They could even slide the Whitney in there on August 7th without too much difficulty, although it would mean shipping cross country another time.

I don't think they should hesitate about shipping her unless it's obvious it's causing a problem. She's a strapping horse and seems to be able to handle most situations both mentally and physically.


Only one problem...the JCGC is against males at 10 furlongs. Shirreffs does not want his horse tired heading into the BC Classic...which is why the Beldame is a better fit. At this point they just want to sharpen her and leave a bit of an edge...



Let 2010 test Zenyatta's greatness

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=finley_bill&id=5078685



The Foster is exactly where she belongs ? in a Grade 1 race against males. Zenyatta has become a lot more than the best filly or mare in the game. She's the best horse in the world right now and the best horse in the world should not be running in races restricted to females strictly in her own backyard. Enough with the paid public workouts in the Milady, Vanity and Clement Hirsch against three or four hopelessly overmatched rivals, it's time to move on to much bigger and much better things. Fortunately, it seems that owner Jerry Moss gets that.

Zenyatta and her FIJI water. :azn:

http://horsephotos.com/watermark.jsp?photoID=113691


Some of us having been saying this for over a year...but when we have said it we have hardly gotten the reception Finley seems to get here... :azn:

[Photo Finish]

^^^So you expect her to make 5 trips across the country this year, right? I don't see that happening. If she does a 6 or 7 race schedule this year and has 3 races in Cali, I don't see a problem with that providing the only restricted race she has at home is the one she already won. Zenyatta beating the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup and the Goodwood would stack up just fine along with the Stephen Foster, a filly and mare race at Belmont and the BC Classic. Another open race could be substituted for the filly/mare race if they find one that fits her schedule. That would make it even better, of course. Forcing her to do what you would like to see her do is a good way to get her beat in the Classic, and I don't think her connections are going to do that. I believe I read on here recently where someone suggested they stable her on the east coast. I don't see that happening either. Keeping her comfortable, healthy and happy is most important, and they've done a darn good job of that so far, so I don't see them completely turning her world upside down this year to appease anyone. I just don't think that will happen.

[ManOTaz]

^^^So you expect her to make 5 trips across the country this year, right? I don't see that happening. If she does a 6 or 7 race schedule this year and has 3 races in Cali, I don't see a problem with that providing the only restricted race she has at home is the one she already won. Zenyatta beating the boys in the Hollywood Gold Cup and the Goodwood would stack up just fine along with the Stephen Foster, a filly and mare race at Belmont and the BC Classic. Another open race could be substituted for the filly/mare race if they find one that fits her schedule. That would make it even better, of course. Forcing her to do what you would like to see her do is a good way to get her beat in the Classic, and I don't think her connections are going to do that. I believe I read on here recently where someone suggested they stable her on the east coast. I don't see that happening either. Keeping her comfortable, healthy and happy is most important, and they've done a darn good job of that so far, so I don't see them completely turning her world upside down this year to appease anyone. I just don't think that will happen.


I think they should have shipped her to Churchill and work from there.

I do not think they should keep shipping her back and fourth.

But you can't campaign a horse and keep her in her home barn... :wink:

And why did Shirreffs say in 2009 she did not venture outside of CA?

Because that is where the BC was...on synthetics...her last prep race will be on dirt...and after it...she should ship to Churchill. It would be best to use Churchill as a base for her...becase that is where the BC is...the only reason I would nix that is if for some reason she was uncomfortable there...but there is no harm in trying it as a base for her if Shirreffs has an assistant trainer he trusts...

And, three races outside CA IMHO is not a lot...and she will not face males 4 times...as you suggest...Gold Cup, Foster, Goodwood and BC...

I do not think her connections would do that...three times max...certainly not her final prep...

[Photo Finish]

It doesn't really matter what you or I, or anyone else thinks. They're going to do what they think is best for Zenyatta, that much we know. It's my opinion that she will ship back to Cali every time. That's her home, that's where's she comfortable, and I think that is where she will remain stabled.

Who says you can't campaign a horse by shipping back and forth? Just because she may not race every one of her remaining races outside of Cali does not constitute not campaigning her, at least not imo.

They said since the BC is at Churchill, she will race more outside of Cali. I don't recall them ever saying she will race every single race outside of Cali. You can dream all you want, but I will be highly surprised if they keep her at Churchill after the Stephen Foster. Shirreffs is a hands on trainer so there's no way he will allow the best horse he's ever trained to be thousands of miles away. Nor will he spend the rest of the year away from home and his other horses.

How do you know what races she is going to be in? I'm sorry if I missed it, but I don't recall hearing that you are friends with Shirreffs or the Mosses, so how do you know where she will race, or against who? I think it's logical to think she will be in the SF, HGC, Goodwood and the BCC, but they could opt for the Lady's Secret instead. I believe her last race prep will be at SA, and it will be one of those two races.

Time will tell where she goes and who she faces, but you don't know, with any certainty, where she'll race anymore than I do.



I think they should have shipped her to Churchill and work from there.

I do not think they should keep shipping her back and fourth.

But you can't campaign a horse and keep her in her home barn... :wink:

And why did Shirreffs say in 2009 she did not venture outside of CA?

Because that is where the BC was...on synthetics...her last prep race will be on dirt...and after it...she should ship to Churchill. It would be best to use Churchill as a base for her...becase that is where the BC is...the only reason I would nix that is if for some reason she was uncomfortable there...but there is no harm in trying it as a base for her if Shirreffs has an assistant trainer he trusts...

And, three races outside CA IMHO is not a lot...and she will not face males 4 times...as you suggest...Gold Cup, Foster, Goodwood and BC...

I do not think her connections would do that...three times max...certainly not her final prep...

[ManOTaz]

As I said, I am only using Shirreffs own words...

He said that he kept her in CA because that is where the BC was.

She raced on synthetics because that is what the BC was on.

It seems inconsistent to me to have her race her final prep for the BC which is on dirt at Churchill on Pro Ride at Santa Anita.

She already raced once in Cali...and she may race again there...but I think two preps for the BC would be consistent with what she has done in the past...for maximum sharpness...

Remember the Hirsch in August and the Lady Secret in September...last year...and the year before...

Afte the SF, she'll take the rest of June and July off...she needs an August prep...and she is not going to Del Mar...

Just one man's opinion...just like yours... :wink:

[Photo Finish]

The Hirsch was undoubtedly her most exhausting race, and if I recall correctly, Shirreffs commented then that she didn't really like that surface. So I agree Del Mar is out of the question, but I don't agree that she will take July off. I think she'll race in the HGC and then take August off. I think she'll then either race at the end of the Saratoga meet, or the beginning of Belmont's fall meet. Moss has already mentioned Belmont, and although he has also said NY, I don't recall him ever mentioning Saratoga by name, but I could be wrong. I think she'll then go back home and prep at SA in one or the other race. You obviously don't think it's in Zenyatta's best interest to prep on the synthetic. It's my opinion it doesn't matter in the least which surface she has her final prep on. I believe it's more important to have her fresh as possible for the BCC, and that's why I think she'll stay home and race out of her own stall. The reason why I think she'll be in the Goodwood is because of weight assignments. Should she win the SF, the HGC, and another race prior to October, there's no doubt in my mind she would be assigned more than 130 in the Lady's Secret. My guess would be around 132, maybe even another pound or two.



As I said, I am only using Shirreffs own words...

He said that he kept her in CA because that is where the BC was.

She raced on synthetics because that is what the BC was on.

It seems inconsistent to me to have her race her final prep for the BC which is on dirt at Churchill on Pro Ride at Santa Anita.

She already raced once in Cali...and she may race again there...but I think two preps for the BC would be consistent with what she has done in the past...for maximum sharpness...

Remember the Hirsch in August and the Lady Secret in September...last year...and the year before...

Afte the SF, she'll take the rest of June and July off...she needs an August prep...and she is not going to Del Mar...

Just one man's opinion...just like yours... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

The Hirsch was undoubtedly her most exhausting race, and if I recall correctly, Shirreffs commented then that she didn't really like that surface. So I agree Del Mar is out of the question, but I don't agree that she will take July off. I think she'll race in the HGC and then take August off. I think she'll then either race at the end of the Saratoga meet, or the beginning of Belmont's fall meet. Moss has already mentioned Belmont, and although he has also said NY, I don't recall him ever mentioning Saratoga by name, but I could be wrong. I think she'll then go back home and prep at SA in one or the other race. You obviously don't think it's in Zenyatta's best interest to prep on the synthetic. It's my opinion it doesn't matter in the least which surface she has her final prep on. I believe it's more important to have her fresh as possible for the BCC, and that's why I think she'll stay home and race out of her own stall. The reason why I think she'll be in the Goodwood is because of weight assignments. Should she win the SF, the HGC, and another race prior to October, there's no doubt in my mind she would be assigned more than 130 in the Lady's Secret. My guess would be around 132, maybe even another pound or two.


Well, we both agree that we want her fresh for the BC...and this is why I think a race like the Goodwood against males is not the best approach...because depending upon the field...it could be a more strenuous race than the connections might like. Of course, if Rachel has worked her way back into form...then she might be in the Beldame as well...and there would be a reason to avoid that race...not because Zenyatta couldn't win...but a victory could take more out of her than another race...and one has to keep their eye on the prize...and speaking of weight that could also be the result in NY...though Jackson and Moss might reach an understanding as they did for the Apple Blossom on weights...

This is why I have objected to the JCGC for her...we know she can get 10 furlongs...she does not need such a race...that distance especially against males.

And I do think a prep on dirt better than one on synthetic...but then I'm a surface snob... :wink:

[Photo Finish]

I don't think she'll be in the JCGC either. I also don't think she'll run against Rachel in her final prep. As you said, they've got their eye on the biggest race of the season, so they're not going to risk that, nor should they. However, I don't think a race like the Goodwood would strain her much at all, and if my feelings on the weights are correct, the LS could be more of a strain. I did think about weights should they consider a filly/mare race in NY as a final prep, which is again, why I think she'll race at SA and in the Goodwood. Whether or not Moss and Jackson could reach an agreement on weights should they both want to be in the Beldame is anyone's guess. We'll have to agree to disagree on whether the surface in her final prep matters or not.



Well, we both agree that we want her fresh for the BC...and this is why I think a race like the Goodwood against males is not the best approach...because depending upon the field...it could be a more strenuous race than the connections might like. Of course, if Rachel has worked her way back into form...then she might be in the Beldame as well...and there would be a reason to avoid that race...not because Zenyatta couldn't win...but a victory could take more out of her than another race...and one has to keep their eye on the prize...and speaking of weight that could also be the result in NY...though Jackson and Moss might reach an understanding as they did for the Apple Blossom on weights...

This is why I have objected to the JCGC for her...we know she can get 10 furlongs...she does not need such a race...that distance especially against males.

And I do think a prep on dirt better than one on synthetic...but then I'm a surface snob... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

On the surface issue...for Z...I think its meaningless...but if I let it go then I wouldn't be a surface snob then would I... :grin:

[Photo Finish]

On the surface issue...for Z...I think its meaningless...but if I let it go then I wouldn't be a surface snob then would I... :grin:


Yeah, wouldn't want to ruin your rep or anything! lol

[Roc525]

Haskin on Zenyatta: The Art of Zen

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/04/17/the-art-of-zen.aspx

[Curlin]

Haskin on Zenyatta: The Art of Zen

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-racing-steve-haskin/archive/2010/04/17/the-art-of-zen.aspx


What a lovely story. I added my 2 cents to the comments.

[Rick1323]

As I mentioned in our last ?And They?re Off? video, it has reached a point where going to the track to see Zenyatta run is like going to see the Harlem Globetrotters. You don?t care that they play the lowly Washington Generals, and no one ever remembers or cares about the score. You?re there to see them put on a show and entertain the fans with their antics and amazing skills. Well, who has more showmanship than Zenyatta? Who has antics like Zenyatta? Who can match Zenyatta?s skills? Perhaps one day she can parade to the post to the strains of ?Sweet Georgia Brown.?

I hadn't thought about this before, but I definitely am "easier" on Zenyatta than any other great horse I have seen. Solely because she is such a joy to watch. I never saw a horse who knew just how much of a star they were....and all the greats have star quality, just not as much as Zenyatta. Perhaps it is the star treatment she has gotten from the day JS got her. Her treated her as his star, and she lived up to it.

[Noble]

That was a nice blog by Haskin -


Writers and racing fans cannot get enough of Zenyatta and have melded into a single entity ? writers have become fans, to the point where they get giddy over having their picture taken with her, and fans cannot stop writing about her, whether it is on blogs, message boards, Facebook, signs, and even in diaries.

The Zenyatta craze has reached a point where it transcends any previous relationship writers and fans have had with horses. That is because Zenyatta, with her diva-like presence and prima ballerina moves, transcends the Thoroughbred racehorse as we know it.

The scribes of the past certainly had their rooting interests, such as Kelso, Secretariat, Forego, and John Henry, but they were mostly hardcore newspaper writers and didn?t often get an opportunity to reach into their heart and soul and pour out their emotions. Going even farther back, fans in Seabiscuit?s day could only admire their heroes from afar, with only a minute percentage of them actually getting to see them in person. The best they could hope for was catching a glimpse of them in newsreels at their local movie theater. Then came television and the ?Gray Ghost,? Native Dancer. It wasn?t until an 11-year-old girl named Heather Noble started the Kelso Fan Club in the early 1960s that young fans had an outlet to express their feelings about a horse or simply bond with other fans.

That obviously has changed dramatically with the advent of the Internet. The Zenyatta phenomenon is difficult to define, because it goes beyond racetrack performance or statistics or even her imposing presence. Yes, she exemplifies perfection and her uncanny showmanship and ability to take on human traits are something no one has ever seen before in a Thoroughbred. But, most importantly, she has been able to find a portal into our childhood. In her, we see The Black Stallion, Misty of Chincoteague, Black Beauty, My Friend Flicka, Trigger, and even Mr. Ed (would you be really that shocked to learn that she talks to John Shirreffs?).

Although horses are a part of our fabric, most of us go on to other endeavors and acquire new interests and passions. But the feelings we have for the equine heroes of our youth never die. They just remain dormant until that one special horse comes along and rekindles them. Whether we are 16 or 40 or 70, we all become children once again.

______

Until people actually see Zenyatta in person, critics will never fully comprehend who Zenyatta really is. Many of us have said it time and time again. It is like watching a rock concert on DVD. It just isn't the same compared to the actual experience. And this is coming from a very jaded and critical person against Zenyatta before I saw her in person. After seeing the '09 LS and BCC with my own two eyes, I finally saw the light. I felt it. That aura. That presence. An experience and memory that will burn in my mind until my final days. Watching her only on "TV" or "YouTube" will never give her justice. You have to experience her.

Like Dottie Ingordo-Shirreffs said, to be around Zenyatta is to experience Zenyatta.

I am just so grateful to have seen this wonderful mare race a few times in person in my life. She is in Hollywood Park and that isn't too far from me. For once, a CA horse can get her due that neither Swaps and Native Diver ever got when you talk about all-time greats. So underrated those two.

Get the Zenyatta bobbleheads when they are given away in Hollywood Park during this spring/summer meet. Get one for the office cubicle, one for a backup, and one to sell on eBay decades for now. Zenyatta is the type of horse that will be revered and cherished long after she is gone. If Rachel's bobblehead can be sold for $50 a year after on eBay, imagine how much value Z's bobblehead will be 20 years from now? They will probably only make about 50K of them. But horse racing can be a niche sport, and people will PAY for it. A rich man's game. If she only lives up as long as Personal Ensign (20 more years), savor any memorabilia of Z.

Zenyatta is one of those horses you dreamed about all your life as a kid. You close your eyes and just dream about that perfect horse. And when you open your eyes, there she is. She does exist after all.

I get envious when I hear stories from people old enough to have witnessed great horses like Native Dancer, Round Table, Dr. Fager, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, and Affirmed, etc.

I now have a horse I can make future generations jealous and envy of me. :cool:

[GinTalking]

Writers and racing fans cannot get enough of Zenyatta and have melded into a single entity ? writers have become fans, to the point where they get giddy over having their picture taken with her, and fans cannot stop writing about her, whether it is on blogs, message boards, Facebook, signs, and even in diaries.

I've decided I am extraordinarily odd because I have absolutely no interest in having my photo taken with any horse, famous, my own or otherwise, unless I'm actually riding the horse or if I'm standing next to my horse in a winner's circle. Then it's more than okay. :-)

I had to be really prodded to have my photo taken with one horse and I wasn't all that happy about it ... but I stood there just the same, probably looking quite embarrassed. The horse was Genuine Risk.

I guess if I ever were to choose a horse to be photographed with, I'd have chosen Affirmed, Flying Paster and Cigar.

[littlelate]

I wish I had MORE pictures of me with Zen. I only have 5 or so, wish I had 100. Pictures of just the horse are boring; I took them, because I saw her, but I can also just buy a few and claim I took them. Yawn.

Nothing like hard proof in the form of a photo with your arms around Zen's neck. <3

[moonwalker]

Don't know where else to put this, but Zenyatta's younger half brother by Giant's Causeway had a workout at Palm Meadows. This one is in my virtual stable; keeping an eye out as to when he'll make his first start.

Souper Spectacular (3-Year-Old Colt)

Your comments for this horse were: 1/2 to Zenyatta

Date: April 18, 2010
Track: PALM MEADOWS TRAINING CENTER
Distance: Four Furlongs
Time: 50:20 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 8/16 -

http://www.finalturngallery.com/g2/main.php/d/133837-2/340++Giant_s+Causeway+-+Vertigineux+colt.jpg

Mary MMM

[ManOTaz]

Writers and racing fans cannot get enough of Zenyatta and have melded into a single entity ? writers have become fans, to the point where they get giddy over having their picture taken with her, and fans cannot stop writing about her, whether it is on blogs, message boards, Facebook, signs, and even in diaries.

I've decided I am extraordinarily odd because I have absolutely no interest in having my photo taken with any horse, famous, my own or otherwise, unless I'm actually riding the horse or if I'm standing next to my horse in a winner's circle. Then it's more than okay. :-)

I had to be really prodded to have my photo taken with one horse and I wasn't all that happy about it ... but I stood there just the same, probably looking quite embarrassed. The horse was Genuine Risk.

I guess if I ever were to choose a horse to be photographed with, I'd have chosen Affirmed, Flying Paster and Cigar.


I have pictures with only 3 race horses out of hundreds I've taken pictures of...Dixieland Band, Pulpit, Unbridled and maybe Mr. Prospector...

I was close to Affirmed taking pictrues, but don't believe I got a picture with him. Or Seattle Slew. :cool:

[ezgoerbaby]

I have a beautiful photo of me with Affirmed. He was just awesome. As soon as I stepped to his side and patted his shoulder and the cameras came out, he immediately pricked his ears and struck a pose. A gorgeous, gorgeous animal. I have pictures of me with all kinds of horses, Unbridled, Mr. Prospector, A.P. Indy, Holy Bull, Danzig, Alleged, etc., but that photo with Affirmed is by far my favorite. I worked at Three Chimneys for a while and never once took a picture with Slew or Genuine Risk...I could kick myself over that.

[Noble]

http://hollywoodpark.com/calendar/zenyatta-bobblehead-giveaway

^^^ Morass, please!!!

Don't like the bobblehead. They put Z's head and put it in Affirmed's "racehorse" body, but in a different color. Only the head with the blaze was fairly decent.

I know bobbleheads are more like cheesy caricatures of someone, but c'mon! They made Z look anoxeric here. Starving. Sir Mix-A-Lot will frown on this. Baby needs more back. You don't put a horse's head who is as chiseled like Stallone and decide to put it in a Kate Moss-like, skinny, 2YO filly body.

If I wasn't such a Zenyatta fan (and capitalist), I wouldn't care about this promo. But since I am both, I'll take two please! If they can sell overpriced, tickling red muppets before the eBay era, people will continue to overpay for anything crappy. The worst-looking bobblehead since Santa Anita gave away one for Seabiscuit. The one SA did for Trevor Denman was excellent though.

Whoever made the bobblehead for Secretariat or Seattle Slew need to make one for Z. Those were the two best-looking ones in my mind. The different versions of Sec were all pretty good. Affirmed's was ok, but hated the stance. Spectacular Bid, Funny Cide, and Smarty Jones' were respectable. Big Brown and Rachel's were kinda bleh. I only own the one for Slew and Bid.

It's cool. C'est la vie. I do hope HP re-releases another DVD for Z with the 2010 races included later in Nov or Dec. My #1 souvenir of Zenyatta is the pictures and videos of her when I saw her race in person. No bobblehead, mug, button, hat, shirt, or DVD will ever replace or fully capture the wonderful experiences and memories when I saw her race live. It is the type of experiences and stories you tell your children or grandchildren someday. Can't wait to see her race live again in June.

[Came Home]

That bobblehead looks worse then the Seabiscuit one I got from Bay Meadows.

[Dusty]

That bobblehead looks worse then the Seabiscuit one I got from Bay Meadows.

Hmm I like that one

[dustino140]

I know bobbleheads are more like cheesy caricatures of someone, but c'mon! They made Z look anoxeric here. Starving. Sir Mix-A-Lot will frown on this. Baby needs more back. You don't put a horse's head who is as chiseled like Stallone and decide to put it in a Kate Moss-like, skinny, 2YO filly body.



Brilliance.

[larryburndorf]

That is the ugliest bobble head ever, it doesn't even look like the color is right. Oh and wraps down to the hooves, brilliant!

[Sun Devils]

The ugly bobbleheads are selling on ebay (well at least the one auction that is open) for $33.99 plus $9.99 shipping and handling and there is still 18 hours to go. This giveaway will turn into a nice little income supplement, and it may be worth the trip to California just to spin those turn styles 100 times on June 13th.

[The Tin Man]

I have pictures of me with The Tin Man of course! :grin:

What a sweet, wonderful, loving horse he is!

I've also got pictures of me with Greg's Gold too! What a great looking horse and very, very sweet too! He had just woken up from a nap, so he was all groggy ... He was adorable.

[JT Dancer]

I've also got pictures of me with Greg's Gold too! What a great looking horse and very, very sweet too! He had just woken up from a nap, so he was all groggy ... He was adorable.


Me too! The first time I went to California the entire objective was to visit Greg's Gold at Harris' River Ranch; I also visited Surf Cat not Olde English. I LOVE Greg's Gold (that's him in my photo). He's such a sweetie. Surf Cat, still love him, but he's not so sweet:)

[Banshee Breeze]

That bobblehead is as ugly as the Rachel one. It's all mass production. No time is spent on creating and design. Rachel bobble was painted so poorly. I didn't keep one. Sold them all on Ebay. It's unbelieveable what people will pay for an ugly bobblehead. :grin:

[seahawkgal]

Yeah, all the bobbleheads are ugly. Even the breyer horses aren't mad original anymore.

I have photos of so many horses over the years but the only ones I was able to get a picture with myself were Slew O'Gold(twice) and Nureyev.
I agree about Affirmed, he was a poser. I have great shots of him.
Oh, and my pictures of Easy Goer were taken the day before he died. :sad:

[ManOTaz]

I have pictures of me with The Tin Man of course! :grin:

What a sweet, wonderful, loving horse he is!

I've also got pictures of me with Greg's Gold too! What a great looking horse and very, very sweet too! He had just woken up from a nap, so he was all groggy ... He was adorable.


That's the best time to see horses...when they're waking up from a nice snooze...saw Eddington and Go For Gin that way...also saw Go For Gin when he had a foot injury and he was so gingerly moving his foot...it was really sweet. :azn:

[PJMIII]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: April 27, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Four Furlongs
Time: 52:40 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 13/15

[Sun Devils]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: April 27, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Four Furlongs
Time: 52:40 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 13/15


Did they clock Mario walking her around the shed row?

[ricquelle]

Does seem awfully slow for Zenyatta...hope it was by design.

[Banshee Breeze]

She's trying to tell her trainer she is tired of plastic and wants to run the rest of her races on DIRT. :cheesy:

[SoS]

Does seem awfully slow for Zenyatta...hope it was by design.


Short and slow is pretty standard for her first work following a race: They'll pick up once they start cranking her for her next start.

[Citation07]

Anyone heard anything about the mighty mare? She's just galloping, I presume. Only a little over a month until her next start!

[luvsgeldings]

spahny mentioned zenyatta in the mervyn leroy thread - he said she hadn't worked in 12 days and was wondering if all was well with the big girl - i may have missed it, but i have not heard anything about her lately either - i am hoping everything is okay with her - so if anyone has any news at all, please let us know - thanks.

[seahawkgal]

Oh no! I certainly hope everything is OK with Zen.

[Banshee Breeze]

Does anyone know what's up with her feet? (I haven't looked through all the posts to know if somethings ever been mentioned.)

[GinTalking]

That doesn't seem unreasonable given her next race isn't for over a month.

[Native Diver]

Well, she congratulated Super Saver on her facebook for his Derby win, so maybe she's taking some time to catch up on email, working on her scrapbook and such. I've never heard a word about her feet. They look amazing and she gets around on them very well. :smiley:

[CoronadosQuest]

How often did she work when she was "retired" it was every two weeks or so wasn't it? Maybe she's just relaxing, and enjoying some downtime while the connections decide which race she is going to next.

[ShuveesGirl]

So why hasn't the media followed up on this?

[violabella]

Triple Crown Mania?

[DesertHeat]

She worked this morning, Mikey up, and blew past her stablemate as per usual.

[luvsgeldings]

oh thanks for the info desertheat!! and could i ask about what time she was out on the track? thanks again!!!

[DesertHeat]

Earlier than normal! 9:20 instead of 9:45 ish. :-)

[luvsgeldings]

oh hey thanks for that info desertheat!! my husband and i couldn't make it out to hollywood park this morning but hopefully next sunday we will - i appreciate knowing a general timeframe of when she comes out - so thank you again!!!

[GinTalking]

Here is her work from today:


Six Furlongs
Breed Type: Thoroughbred
Surface: All Weather Track
Track: Fast


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Horse Name Sex Age Time Notes Rank Add to

Boomtown (KY) Colt 4 1:13.40 h 9/15
Dynamic Range (KY) Gelding 4 1:13.00 h 5/15
El Vino (KY) Colt 4 1:16.80 h 15/15
Kaysa Deeya (KY) Filly 3 1:15.40 h 13/15
Leandros (FR) Gelding 5 1:13.00 h 5/15
Lutess (KY) Filly 3 1:12.80 h 4/15
Oil Man (IRE) Colt 4 1:13.40 h 9/15
Outrageous Fortune (CA) Gelding 3 1:13.20 h 8/15
Seattle Ruler (KY) Colt 3 1:11.20 hg 1/15
Skipshot (KY) Colt 3 1:12.60 hg 2/15
Third Dawn (KY) Filly 4 1:12.60 h 2/15
Tuscan Evening (IRE) Mare 5 1:13.00 h 5/15
Warrens Highroller (CA) Mare 5 1:13.80 h 11/15
Will O Way (KY) Filly 4 1:13.80 h 11/15
Zenyatta (KY) Mare 6 1:15.80 b 14/15

[CoronadosQuest]

Compared to her previous 6f works, she must have been taking a nap in the middle of it.

05/09/2010 HOL 6F 1:15.80 All Weather Track Fast B
04/27/2010 HOL 4F :52.40 All Weather Track Fast B
04/02/2010 HOL 6F 1:13.40 All Weather Track Fast B
03/25/2010 HOL 6F 1:14.60 All Weather Track Fast B
03/05/2010 HOL 6F 1:11.80 All Weather Track Fast H
02/26/2010 HOL 6F 1:13.20 All Weather Track Fast B
02/18/2010 HOL 6F 1:14.00 All Weather Track Fast B
02/11/2010 HOL 6F 1:13.80 All Weather Track Fast B

[susan]

She must have been trotting for the work ...

[Majella from Ireland]

That is pretty slow, i hope she's OK. Maybe they are just taking things easy?

[Spahny]

I would need a little more information than the time of the workout to know if was actually a slow work. It would be lovely to actually see it, but the splits would be fine, too.

Her normal schedule is to work every 7-8 days unless she is coming out of a race. Twelve days between isn't the norm for her. She is obviously fine. Shirreffs wouldn't work her if she wasn't. But the suddenly casual schedule suggests they might be looking to adjust her race calendar. You could speculate at length over what that might be but training up to the Hollywood Gold Cup is one possibility.

[DesertHeat]

Shirreffs took a rare vacation after the Derby and wasn't at the barn for a handful of days which is why she didn't work, they just played around with her.

[GinTalking]

I would need a little more information than the time of the workout to know if was actually a slow work. It would be lovely to actually see it, but the splits would be fine, too.


Although there was one in 1:11 and change, most of the works were on the slow side so maybe the track just isn't very fast. I don't know if these are normal times for works or not. I don't really follow works, unless it's my own horse, of course. :wink:

[Came Home]

The Vanity is on a sunday so maybe they want her works to be 7 days apart and then 7 days to the race.

[Spahny]

Shirreffs took a rare vacation after the Derby and wasn't at the barn for a handful of days which is why she didn't work, they just played around with her.


Yeah, that's kind of casual.

[SecretariatForever]

They said that she would get a little break after the Apple Blossom. Which she did. I'm sure that they planned when she got back on the track to just give her a few leisurely strolls around the track as part of the break. They are campaigning her for the Classic this year. They aren't going to make her work fast in every workout until October. Especially if they are considering more difficult races. She's not racing for another month. She's been in tip top shape for a long time now. She's not going to loose that shape because they took it a little easier with her in some of her works. They know that. So there's no need to go overboard in trying to keep her in shape. I don't think there is anything to worry about.

Also, what DesertHeat said about Shirreffs taking a vacation after the Derby seems to explain it also.

DesertHeat, where you there to watch her go around the track in any of these works?

[Spahny]

It doesn't seem like a program aimed at a race in early June. But if Shirreffs likes her condition as it is then maybe his aim is to try and maintain her current fitness level.

They've done a fine job of keeping her happy. I'm not criticizing. Just watching those work patterns.

[WestCoast]

I'm new. Go easy on me. (Many of you know me and can probably figure it out by my username.)

I was there this morning when she came back from the work (which I cursed myself all day for missing) and she didn't even look like she had worked. Honestly she could have been on her way TO the track judging by how she looked.

[CoronadosQuest]

Does anybody have the times/distances she worked when she was "retired" and not being pointed at a race? These just seem very slow and I hope she is okay. Maybe she is on a leisure holiday but if shes racing in a month, it seems a bit weird to me.

[Hermes Redux]

I'm new. Go easy on me. (Many of you know me and can probably figure it out by my username.)

I was there this morning when she came back from the work (which I cursed myself all day for missing) and she didn't even look like she had worked. Honestly she could have been on her way TO the track judging by how she looked.


"Working" six that slow must have been an open gallop for her. Not even that open. I m guessing Mike misjudged in an effort to err on the side of instructed caution and she actually blew out one furlong or a quarter mile;)

[Hermes Redux]

Does anybody have the times/distances she worked when she was "retired" and not being pointed at a race? These just seem very slow and I hope she is okay. Maybe she is on a leisure holiday but if shes racing in a month, it seems a bit weird to me.


She worked half miles, 50, 49, 48 in progression...not in training like she is now with her six furlong works. Not a big deal if she is super fit and JS wanted a break for himself.

If it is an issue, we'll hear soon but I am going to guess that the work mate went too slow early or Mike drank too much of his wine the night before...

[CoronadosQuest]

I was just surprised when I saw the time this morning, thats all. If all is well on the Z front then Im happy :)

[SecretariatForever]

Does anybody have the times/distances she worked when she was "retired" and not being pointed at a race? These just seem very slow and I hope she is okay. Maybe she is on a leisure holiday but if shes racing in a month, it seems a bit weird to me.


I'm sure if you look into all of her workout history she's gone "slow" before.

And her works after the Classic were actually quicker which is why so many had a feeling she was not going to be retired.

[WestCoast]

I'm new. Go easy on me. (Many of you know me and can probably figure it out by my username.)

I was there this morning when she came back from the work (which I cursed myself all day for missing) and she didn't even look like she had worked. Honestly she could have been on her way TO the track judging by how she looked.


"Working" six that slow must have been an open gallop for her. Not even that open. I m guessing Mike misjudged in an effort to err on the side of instructed caution and she actually blew out one furlong or a quarter mile;)


I honestly wish I had walked over there 10 minutes earlier, I could tell you more... But all I can say is what I saw when she came back, and it was a laid back, relaxed, perfectly 100% amazing looking Zenyatta who could have been out for a light stroll in the park.

[Spahny]

I honestly wish I had walked over there 10 minutes earlier, I could tell you more... But all I can say is what I saw when she came back, and it was a laid back, relaxed, perfectly 100% amazing looking Zenyatta who could have been out for a light stroll in the park.


Post of the day. Thanks, WestCoast.

[SecretariatForever]

I honestly wish I had walked over there 10 minutes earlier, I could tell you more... But all I can say is what I saw when she came back, and it was a laid back, relaxed, perfectly 100% amazing looking Zenyatta who could have been out for a light stroll in the park.


I honestly don't know what we would do without you guys who head over there to watch her sometimes!

[Hermes Redux]

I honestly wish I had walked over there 10 minutes earlier, I could tell you more... But all I can say is what I saw when she came back, and it was a laid back, relaxed, perfectly 100% amazing looking Zenyatta who could have been out for a light stroll in the park.


I honestly don't know what we would do without you guys who head over there to watch her sometimes!



We'd probably see posts suggesting she be retired and that a jock agent had said that he heard from his friend's brother's cousins exercise rider that the vet had been at JS barn;)

[SecretariatForever]

I honestly wish I had walked over there 10 minutes earlier, I could tell you more... But all I can say is what I saw when she came back, and it was a laid back, relaxed, perfectly 100% amazing looking Zenyatta who could have been out for a light stroll in the park.


I honestly don't know what we would do without you guys who head over there to watch her sometimes!



We'd probably see posts suggesting she be retired and that a jock agent had said that he heard from his friend's brother's cousins exercise rider that the vet had been at JS barn;)


:azn:



http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/



Since she's still a working girl and still at least a couple of years away from motherhood, Zenyatta celebrated Mother's Day by exercising 6 furlongs Sunday morning at Hollywood Park. She got the distance in an official 1:15.80, which was just fine for what she needed as far as trainer John Shirreffs is concerned.

[Hermes Redux]

Good stuff SF. Sounds like JS doesn't like how the Big Mare responds to stress of shipping or is treating her like a hot house flower. Probably somewhere in between. But this isn't legacy making stuff, either, John.

Hovdey excerpt nails it:

If there are no straws in her path, Zenyatta will run next in the $250,000 Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park on June 13. This news was greeted by many of her fans and all of her skeptics (the number of her doubters being akin to the 13 percent who "strongly approved" of the way George Bush did his job at the end of his Presidency) with understandable disappointment. They were led to believe that Zenyatta's 2010 campaign would be a transcontinental carnival of delights, with appearances far and wide, a veritable Cirque de Zenyatta. Owner Jerry Moss certainly left that impression after her victory in the Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park last month when he said the team would be looking at grade 1 races at a mile and one-eighth in New York and Kentucky for her subsequent starts. The Vanity fits the bill...except for the New York or Kentucky part.

"You can't ship for every race," Shirreffs said, when asked why Zenyatta is returning to the comfort of her own backyard for her next start. In the broadest sense, the statement is not true. Or, at least, Bill Mott didn't get the memo. During his back-to-back Horse of the Year campaigns, Cigar ran consecutive races at Oaklawn, Pimlico, Suffolk Downs and Hollywood Park in 1995, then the following year put together consecutive races at Nad al Sheba, Suffolk Downs, Arlington Park and Del Mar. He won them all but Del Mar.

[SecretariatForever]

Can't deny, I'm really disappointed they are staying home for the Vanity. I wonder what her weight will be?

[Hermes Redux]

Can't deny, I'm really disappointed they are staying home for the Vanity. I wonder what her weight will be?


I'll guess 130 tops, maybe 129. Since she started at 127 in SM earlier in the year purposely to leave a couple of pounds for later in the year.

Love the Hovdey dig at NYRA for telling JS that a Belmont Park stall application, "was available on-line." Ya just gotta love this sport and it's slow blood-letting demise from the long ago slashed wrists...

ps and the idea of JS willingness to place her in a detention barn is priceless, too.

[ManOTaz]

Good stuff SF. Sounds like JS doesn't like how the Big Mare responds to stress of shipping or is treating her like a hot house flower. Probably somewhere in between. But this isn't legacy making stuff, either, John.

Hovdey excerpt nails it:

If there are no straws in her path, Zenyatta will run next in the $250,000 Vanity Handicap at Hollywood Park on June 13. This news was greeted by many of her fans and all of her skeptics (the number of her doubters being akin to the 13 percent who "strongly approved" of the way George Bush did his job at the end of his Presidency) with understandable disappointment. They were led to believe that Zenyatta's 2010 campaign would be a transcontinental carnival of delights, with appearances far and wide, a veritable Cirque de Zenyatta. Owner Jerry Moss certainly left that impression after her victory in the Apple Blossom Handicap at Oaklawn Park last month when he said the team would be looking at grade 1 races at a mile and one-eighth in New York and Kentucky for her subsequent starts. The Vanity fits the bill...except for the New York or Kentucky part.

"You can't ship for every race," Shirreffs said, when asked why Zenyatta is returning to the comfort of her own backyard for her next start. In the broadest sense, the statement is not true. Or, at least, Bill Mott didn't get the memo. During his back-to-back Horse of the Year campaigns, Cigar ran consecutive races at Oaklawn, Pimlico, Suffolk Downs and Hollywood Park in 1995, then the following year put together consecutive races at Nad al Sheba, Suffolk Downs, Arlington Park and Del Mar. He won them all but Del Mar.


Hovdey certainly nailed me where you bolded it...

And to think...I was suggesting she should run in the Arc...this team has trouble stabling her for more than a week outside of Cali...yeesh...

I wonder if this is because of Shirreffs not having an assistant trainer he trusts...or a real concern on the part of the connections that she NEEDS to be at home in Hollywood Park...

Either way it is disappointing...

And while Cigar shipped...they wouldn't have to ship for every race if they'd stable her at Churchill...and ship her out from there for the other races...which is what I thought they were going to do...

I guess I may have to fly out to CA after all if I want to see her run...

[JT Dancer]

I guess I may have to fly out to CA after all if I want to see her run...


Do it; you will not be disappointed. Honestly, in order to have the best experience of her racing (and it is an experience), it has to be in California. I am so happy I had the Z experience at Santa Anita before I saw her at Oaklawn. She was still magnificent, but the Oaklawn environment left a lot to be desired.

[Hermes Redux]

Man, it is how she returns dehydrated and the excited nature of her temperament that concern JS, not anything to do with his human assistants. He very much trusts his assistants and left her with them in OP.

She was never going to be stabled at CD before the fall. If then.

[Huaka]

Here's an article that gives insight on the shipping deal. I liked reading it.

http://hovdeyblog.drf.com/hovdeyblog/

[Jumron]

I certainly can understand why people are disappointed that Z doesn't go out of state more, but since HP is giving out those Zenyatta bobbleheads on Vanity Hdcp. Day, maybe Z's crew feels obligated to run her there. Although I agree with the previous posters after seeing the photo link of what those Zenyatta bobbleheads look like - they look pretty ugly to me, also.

[Noble]

COMPARE BOBBLEHEADS

http://onthewirephotos.com/HorseBobbleheads/HorseBobbleheads.html

Big Brown

http://ieah.com/html/06_11_2009_big_brown_bobble_head.jpg

Rachel Alexandra

http://horseracingfans.net/images/collectibles/rachel-alexandra-bobblehead-200.gif

Zenyatta

http://hollywoodpark.com/images/1008t.jpg

Whoever owns the Secretariat (w/ the red 1A saddlecloth) bobblehead is very lucky. The most limited and it holds the most value.

http://www.secretariat.com/images/bobb1M.jpg http://www.secretariat.com/images/bobb2M.jpg

http://www.secretariat.com/images/secminihistory.jpg http://www.secretariat.com/images/slewminihistory.jpg http://www.secretariat.com/images/affirmedminihistory.jpg

I thought the one for Smarty Jones was fairly well done too among more recent horses with the only exception was Smarty's mane and tail were lighter than his coat. I really like the base for it too. Z's pose should have been similar to Smarty's. The ones for Seabiscuit (SA), Rachel Alexandra (OP), and Zenyatta (HP) were not done very well. Whoever manufactured the Secretariat ones should do one for Zenyatta. They put Z's head on Life Is Sweet's body for her bobblehead. One of Z's biggest draws is her physique and they messed that one up. I thought they did okay with her blaze though.

But hey, an autographed Calvin Borel bobblehead is going for $150 on eBay and it hardly even looks like him. Looks like I'll go to HP again when they hand out the Mike Smith bobbleheads too.

[FlowerEssence]

I DO NOT understand the attraction with bobbleheads! They're all so frickin' UGLY, every single one I've seen, human or animal. I don't want a horse with a broken neck. Give me a nice Breyer any day!

[carbonite]

I DO NOT understand the attraction with bobbleheads! They're all so frickin' UGLY, every single one I've seen, human or animal. I don't want a horse with a broken neck. Give me a nice Breyer any day!


That's because they all resemble their progenitor, back when racing was popular.

http://blog.rifftrax.com/wp-content/uploads/barneygoogleko8.gif

http://www.oldwoodtoys.com/1845_1_lg.jpg

[BornToWin]

I DO NOT understand the attraction with bobbleheads! They're all so frickin' UGLY, every single one I've seen, human or animal. I don't want a horse with a broken neck. Give me a nice Breyer any day!


That's because they all resemble their progenitor, back when racing was popular.

http://blog.rifftrax.com/wp-content/uploads/barneygoogleko8.gif

http://www.oldwoodtoys.com/1845_1_lg.jpg


That is so interesting. Doing a Google search of Barney Google and Wikipedia--who knew?!? Well, Carbonite, you did, but danged if "Google" isn't part of the whole story. Even Charles Schultz (Peanuts) was nicknamed for the horse, Spark Plug. According to the Wikip site, his uncle called him "Sparky" after Spark Plug, from the time when he was a child.
Cool. Thanks for sharing.

[Hermes Redux]

This just in: Zenyatta's humans are afraid of a Rail Trip.

[ManOTaz]

I guess I may have to fly out to CA after all if I want to see her run...


Do it; you will not be disappointed. Honestly, in order to have the best experience of her racing (and it is an experience), it has to be in California. I am so happy I had the Z experience at Santa Anita before I saw her at Oaklawn. She was still magnificent, but the Oaklawn environment left a lot to be desired.


Thanks.

If only I could get some pit passes too...to get up close and personal... :azn:

[ShuveesGirl]

I DO NOT understand the attraction with bobbleheads! They're all so frickin' UGLY, every single one I've seen, human or animal. I don't want a horse with a broken neck. Give me a nice Breyer any day!


I feel the same way. But the Zenyatta one is in a class in itself. Just hideous.

[DesertHeat]

I thought some Z fans might want to know what she is up to - she galloped a mile and a half(ish) on the training track yesterday.

[Native Diver]

Thanks DesertHeat for the update. I've been wondering how she is and what she's doing.

[PJMIII]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 17, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:20 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 1/12

[Draynay]

This just in: Zenyatta's humans are afraid of a Rail Trip.


Does that make her the 2nd best horse in California ?

[littlelate]

This just in: Zenyatta's humans are afraid of a Rail Trip.


Does that make her the 2nd best horse in California ?
drah-nye. I'll be sad if your name isn't what I think it is.

[susan]

Draynay is an infamous blogtroll and Zenyatta naysayer .

Not to mention a jackazz .

Feed at your own risk .

[Draynay]

Draynay is an infamous blogtroll and Zenyatta naysayer .

Not to mention a jackazz .

Feed at your own risk .


Wow. Nice to meet you too. I hope you are not this nice to everyone on this blog. I just don't believe Zenyatta is a very good horse on dirt. I believe she is the best poly horse in the world is that not enough ?

[susan]

Draynay is an infamous blogtroll and Zenyatta naysayer .

Not to mention a jackazz .

Feed at your own risk .


Wow. Nice to meet you too. I hope you are not this nice to everyone on this blog. I just don't believe Zenyatta is a very good horse on dirt. I believe she is the best poly horse in the world is that not enough ?


Nice to meet you too--and mostly I am nice ...

But I am familiar with your body of work ...

[Hermes Redux]

OK this was funny:

From today's DRF:

The upset win by Made for Magic in Sunday's Grade 2 Milady Handicap, the first graded stakes win for the former $16,000 claimer, did not inspire trainer A.C. Avila to suggest the $250,000 Vanity Handicap on June 13 as a next-race goal.

With Zenyatta expected to head the Vanity field, Avila is anxious to try another spot.

"I don't want to see the big girl again," he said. "I'll watch her from over here [in the stands] and applaud."

Made for Magic raced against Zenyatta earlier this year, finishing sixth in the Grade 1 Santa Margarita Handicap at Santa Anita.

[hagginwood]

video of her work on Molly Rosen's Focused Filly site -
http://www.focusedfilly.com/2010/05/17/zenyatta-works/

[Diver67]

She worked with Aitcho? He's a nice horse--I think they once had high hopes for him, and he's run some good races. I'm kind of surprised they're making him the new punching bag!

[susan]

video of her work on Molly Rosen's Focused Filly site -
http://www.focusedfilly.com/2010/05/17/zenyatta-works/


Thank you for posting this--most interesting ..

[Huaka]

I found this fanvid of her on Youtube. I really like it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1l2UXB5qYZA

[Songofthesword]

She worked with Aitcho? He's a nice horse--I think they once had high hopes for him, and he's run some good races. I'm kind of surprised they're making him the new punching bag!
the better you get the better the punching bags have to get.

[Draynay]

She worked with Aitcho? He's a nice horse--I think they once had high hopes for him, and he's run some good races. I'm kind of surprised they're making him the new punching bag!
the better you get the better the punching bags have to get.


You think maybe one day she will be good enough to race outside of the state of California east of the Mississippi River ?

[ElPrado]

You think maybe one day Rachel will be good enough to race on the West coast?

[Hermes Redux]

You think maybe one day Rachel will be good enough to race on the West coast?


Do you think the discipline to not answer Draynay's baiting posts on Z will surface before either horse ships out of their home base again?

[Railbird]

She worked with Aitcho? He's a nice horse--I think they once had high hopes for him, and he's run some good races. I'm kind of surprised they're making him the new punching bag!
the better you get the better the punching bags have to get.


You think maybe one day she will be good enough to race outside of the state of California east of the Mississippi River ?


HAHAHAHAHA I love it. People whine and complain that she never runs outside of California. Then she does so (in a race that was announced plenty of time in advance, so whoever wanted to could have shown up), and somehow that win doesn't count because people wanted the reincarnation of Twilight Tear to run against her or something. People say "let's see her outside of California" and when she does ship, they place qualifications on it. Whatever Zenyatta does, it will never be good enough for some people. If she wins out the rest of the year and takes the Classic again, somehow it will STILL not be good enough.

By the way - no West Coast bias here. I say this as a New York racing fan who adores Rachel Alexandra more than just about anything. I simply know a great horse when I see one.

[littlelate]

She worked with Aitcho? He's a nice horse--I think they once had high hopes for him, and he's run some good races. I'm kind of surprised they're making him the new punching bag!
the better you get the better the punching bags have to get.


You think maybe one day she will be good enough to race outside of the state of California east of the Mississippi River ?


HAHAHAHAHA I love it. People whine and complain that she never runs outside of California. Then she does so (in a race that was announced plenty of time in advance, so whoever wanted to could have shown up), and somehow that win doesn't count because people wanted the reincarnation of Twilight Tear to run against her or something. People say "let's see her outside of California" and when she does ship, they place qualifications on it. Whatever Zenyatta does, it will never be good enough for some people. If she wins out the rest of the year and takes the Classic again, somehow it will STILL not be good enough.

By the way - no West Coast bias here. I say this as a New York racing fan who adores Rachel Alexandra more than just about anything. I simply know a great horse when I see one.
"Beat quality horses!" See; Apple Blossom (first one), both her BC wins. "No I meant on dirt!" Let me redirect you to her first AB. No, it wasn't recent, but the demand has been met already. "No I mean more than once!" So if she does it, it will be argued with "No I meant blindfolded!"

High-five. I love your post.

[littlelate]

Also, found this video of her rockin' it up at SA;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z2LZU0boRE&feature=related

I've been to the Oaks for the last 9 years, I've been to the Derby at Keeneland for the last 5, the Pac Classic, the 2001 BC, but the only time I heard the track this loud was her '09 win at Del Mar after Trevor said something like "And the undefeated winner..." and it was deafening before he even got the rest out.

[GreenasGrass]

Drf says 6f in 1:13 flat but equibase doesn't have the work recorded.
http://drf.com/news/article/113227.html

[DesertHeat]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts

[Draynay]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.

[Sun Devils]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)

[Draynay]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)


No, I hope they're crazy enough to ACTUALLY put that horse in the gates vs. the best males in the world at Churchill. When the gates open I will be laughing all the way to the bank.

[Sun Devils]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)


No, I hope they're crazy enough to ACTUALLY put that horse in the gates vs. the best males in the world at Churchill. When the gates open I will be laughing all the way to the bank.


Enlighten me as to who the "best males in the world" are at this moment. Also, predict for me who they will be in five months when the BCC is run. I hope you bet every last dime you have on any horse not named Zenyatta (assuming she runs in the Classic) and I will make sure not to laugh to hard when I serve you in the soup line come Thanksgiving.

[littlelate]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)


No, I hope they're crazy enough to ACTUALLY put that horse in the gates vs. the best males in the world at Churchill. When the gates open I will be laughing all the way to the bank.
GTFO this thread. For that matter, GTFO this planet. We have enough pests as it is.

[Minersmarq]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)


No, I hope they're crazy enough to ACTUALLY put that horse in the gates vs. the best males in the world at Churchill. When the gates open I will be laughing all the way to the bank.
GTFO this thread. For that matter, GTFO this planet. We have enough pests as it is.

HOLY $&#@!! You and I agree on something! Cheers to that! lol

[littlelate]

First time for everything Marq ;) No hard feelings, and let this occurrence solidify that. I'll call my exterminator if you get a shoe.

[Huaka]

On another subject. You know what would be interesting? If they pull a fast one on us and enter her in the Californian or something. That'd be neat.

[GreenasGrass]

On another subject. You know what would be interesting? If they pull a fast one on us and enter her in the Californian or something. That'd be neat.

Nominations for the Foster are due on the 29th, they have five days to get the forms in.

[Minersmarq]

First time for everything Marq ;) No hard feelings, and let this occurrence solidify that. I'll call my exterminator if you get a shoe.

I've always prefered more hardcore techniques. Gas and a match, blow torch, explosives, etc :wink:

[JT Dancer]

On another subject. You know what would be interesting? If they pull a fast one on us and enter her in the Californian or something. That'd be neat.

Nominations for the Foster are due on the 29th, they have five days to get the forms in.


They better run her in the Vanity, I already bought my plane tickets :grin:

[Draynay]

Zenyatta (6-Year-Old Mare)

Date: May 24, 2010
Track: HOLLYWOOD PARK
Distance: Six Furlongs
Time: 1.13:00 Handily
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: All Weather Track
Rank: 7/17 - See the day's workouts


113 Handily ? Hmmm.


Draynay, I am keeping my fingers crossed that this hack of a horse never sees the starting gate again. I am sure you are hoping for the same (or maybe an injury during the Vanity to ensure her retirement!)


No, I hope they're crazy enough to ACTUALLY put that horse in the gates vs. the best males in the world at Churchill. When the gates open I will be laughing all the way to the bank.
GTFO this thread. For that matter, GTFO this planet. We have enough pests as it is.


Sorry but you can drink the Kool Aid all you want but until Zenyatta wins against males on dirt I believe she has a better chance of learning to fly. She is the best poly horse on the planet but she is no where near the best on dirt. Live with it... it is what it is.

[littlelate]

Can I nominate a ban-hammer? Hasn't this scrub been banned/suspended from other places?

[susan]

Can I nominate a ban-hammer? Hasn't this scrub been banned/suspended from other places?


He sure has--and his name is mud to Shandler and Haskin .

It has not yet ocurred to him that no one with a favorite horse--even if he or her is shared with Drano, cares what his opinion is, and what said horse has to prove to him or his grandfather .

How about we take a poll and vote him off ??

He has been honing his " skills " on Zenyatta topics driving bloggers crazy and himself off ..

We all enjoy a good argument, but when he asked for an opinion it is rhetorical...

Same specious arguments, same sets of rules and " facts " . Bang, bang, over and over .

Please pass the Raid--a major pestilance ..

[Sun Devils]

Why get rid of Draynay? Along with ManOSpaz, I consider the lunacy and drivel they spread comedic, and the great irony is they both think they are onto something.

[Draynay]

Can I nominate a ban-hammer? Hasn't this scrub been banned/suspended from other places?


He sure has--and his name is mud to Shandler and Haskin .

It has not yet ocurred to him that no one with a favorite horse--even if he or her is shared with Drano, cares what his opinion is, and what said horse has to prove to him or his grandfather .

How about we take a poll and vote him off ??

He has been honing his " skills " on Zenyatta topics driving bloggers crazy and himself off ..

We all enjoy a good argument, but when he asked for an opinion it is rhetorical...

Same specious arguments, same sets of rules and " facts " . Bang, bang, over and over .

Please pass the Raid--a major pestilance ..


Susan you just never let up do you? The most amazing thing is you have no idea what you are talking about you just like being mean. What a life. Is it not enough that I call Zenyatta the best poly horse on the planet ? How do you call her the best dirt horse when she won't take on the best on dirt ?????????

[susan]

Why get rid of Draynay? Along with ManOSpaz, I consider the lunacy and drivel they spread comedic, and the great irony is they both think they are onto something.


You are not the first to say that they are amusing in their lunacy and drivel, but I do not find either amusing consistantly , though MOT is certainly more reasonable though more wordy...

I will take MOT, and Negative Nancy over this ubertroll anyday .

Off with its head .

[susan]

Can I nominate a ban-hammer? Hasn't this scrub been banned/suspended from other places?


He sure has--and his name is mud to Shandler and Haskin .

It has not yet ocurred to him that no one with a favorite horse--even if he or her is shared with Drano, cares what his opinion is, and what said horse has to prove to him or his grandfather .

How about we take a poll and vote him off ??

He has been honing his " skills " on Zenyatta topics driving bloggers crazy and himself off ..

We all enjoy a good argument, but when he asked for an opinion it is rhetorical...

Same specious arguments, same sets of rules and " facts " . Bang, bang, over and over .

Please pass the Raid--a major pestilance ..


Susan you just never let up do you? The most amazing thing is you have no idea what you are talking about you just like being mean. What a life. Is it not enough that I call Zenyatta the best poly horse on the planet ? How do you call her the best dirt horse when she won't take on the best on dirt ?????????


Oh look--it is the Duke of Dogma posting live from Dribble Upon Tyne --whining how I am such a meanie-wah wah--I don't need no wah wah ...

I don't care what you call Zenyatta--as long as you are accurate--which is not a strong suit--as I HAVE NEVER PROCLAIMED HER THE BEST HORSE ON DIRT ANYTIME OR ANYWHERE .

You want to take artistic liberties with " facts " in your OWN posts, fine, but stay out of mine . And I know exactly what I am talking about--just not in your book , AMAZINGLY ..

I am truly sorry for those suffering from recto-cranial inversion, but there might be a cure ... Meanwhile--if the heat is too much in the kitchen, you might want to frequent a more appropriate venue .

Enjoy your visit .

[GinTalking]

113 Handily ? Hmmm.


99% of all works in California are (H)andily just as 99% of all works on the East Coast are (B)reezing ... which essentially means "in hand, not being asked for everything they have".

No one has ever figured out why the California tracks do it different from all other tracks. It would be interesting to know the answer. Why has no one asked, or have they and I just missed the explanation.

[Draynay]

Why get rid of Draynay? Along with ManOSpaz, I consider the lunacy and drivel they spread comedic, and the great irony is they both think they are onto something.


You are not the first to say that they are amusing in their lunacy and drivel, but I do not find either amusing consistantly , though MOT is certainly more reasonable though more wordy...

I will take MOT, and Negative Nancy over this ubertroll anyday .

Off with its head .


Susan I haven't done anything to you but you continue to call me names for no reason other then you don't like my opinions. Sad.

[Draynay]

113 Handily ? Hmmm.


99% of all works in California are (H)andily just as 99% of all works on the East Coast are (B)reezing ... which essentially means "in hand, not being asked for everything they have".

No one has ever figured out why the California tracks do it different from all other tracks. It would be interesting to know the answer. Why has no one asked, or have they and I just missed the explanation.


Really ? Thanks Gin, were her prior 2 workouts handily ?

[susan]

Cry me a river ...

I could care less about someone's opinions--we have sensibly graduated from calling them facts--but the droning repetion of the same thing over and over is dissonance and brings nothing to the table .

Except repetition . Everyone heard you the first time .

Same shtick different forum . Needs some tweaking this broken record does .

It's a dirty job , but someone has to do it.

Susan is such a meanie, poor me ...

[RSA]

And still undefeated. How about that. :cheesy:
What is she, 2-for-2 this year?

[Draynay]

Cry me a river ...

I could care less about someone's opinions--we have sensibly graduated from calling them facts--but the droning repetion of the same thing over and over is dissonance and brings nothing to the table .

Except repetition . Everyone heard you the first time .

Same shtick different forum . Needs some tweaking this broken record does .

It's a dirty job , but someone has to do it.

Susan is such a meanie, poor me ...


Lol... let me guess you're single. :grin: The only broken record here is you.

[Draynay]

The question I have for many of you is a simple one. Let's pretend for a moment that you are Mr. Moss and your trainer comes to you and says, " look, to be honest she is not the same horse on dirt." What do you do ? Do you stay in California and run on familiar ground to get the 19th win or do you roll the dice and send her on dirt any way or do you do retire her ? What would you do ?

[Sun Devils]

The question I have for many of you is a simple one. Let's pretend for a moment that you are Mr. Moss and your trainer comes to you and says, " look, to be honest she is not the same horse on dirt." What do you do ? Do you stay in California and run on familiar ground to get the 19th win or do you roll the dice and send her on dirt any way or do you do retire her ? What would you do ?


I would push her off a cliff with you on her back.

[RSA]

The question I have for many of you is a simple one. Let's pretend for a moment that you are Mr. Moss and your trainer comes to you and says, " look, to be honest she is not the same horse on dirt." What do you do ? Do you stay in California and run on familiar ground to get the 19th win or do you roll the dice and send her on dirt any way or do you do retire her ? What would you do ?

What would you do?

[susan]

Cry me a river ...

I could care less about someone's opinions--we have sensibly graduated from calling them facts--but the droning repetion of the same thing over and over is dissonance and brings nothing to the table .

Except repetition . Everyone heard you the first time .

Same shtick different forum . Needs some tweaking this broken record does .

It's a dirty job , but someone has to do it.

Susan is such a meanie, poor me ...


Lol... let me guess you're single. :grin: The only broken record here is you.


Let ME guess-- your young wife is inflatable and you are out of air .

[Draynay]

The question I have for many of you is a simple one. Let's pretend for a moment that you are Mr. Moss and your trainer comes to you and says, " look, to be honest she is not the same horse on dirt." What do you do ? Do you stay in California and run on familiar ground to get the 19th win or do you roll the dice and send her on dirt any way or do you do retire her ? What would you do ?

What would you do?


I would do what Mr. Moss is doing. Hide her in California run her against females a couple more times and then retire her. I can't see there being any chance he runs her against the boys in Churchill. It would be a disaster and tarnish her career. If she was going to take on Churchill and the BC she would have plans on dirt in June and July and she doesn't. There is nothing wrong with being a regional champ. Peppers Pride will tell you that.

[susan]

The question I have for many of you is a simple one. Let's pretend for a moment that you are Mr. Moss and your trainer comes to you and says, " look, to be honest she is not the same horse on dirt." What do you do ? Do you stay in California and run on familiar ground to get the 19th win or do you roll the dice and send her on dirt any way or do you do retire her ? What would you do ?


OK--Count Creativity--I will play ...

I am Jerry Moss, but those folk that are out of Razidine, forgot that my trainer already told me that my mare is better on dirt.

So I would say that my trainer already told me she is better on dirt .

To those same folk that run out of fingers and toes to count on, I would politely remind them that we are going for out 17th win, and that our untimate goal is to run in the Breeder's Cup Classic at Churchill on DIRT .

Is that clear ???

I would also remind folks that so far our schedule from now to November is something that we may or may not know, and they don't know at all .

Patience is a virtue .

The simple question has been given a simple CIVIL answer.

Debating this would indicate a simpleton .

----------------------------Jerry