Cozmic One

sweettalk
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Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:06 pm

sweettalk wrote:while i am a little disappointed he was gelded (not gonna lie, and i absolutely understand and don't disagree with the decision, though lesser horses have been given a chance), i really hope he excels in his new career. it worked very well for Mr Hot Stuff in the jumps races, so i have reason to be optimistic (and i will be, dang it!)
i literally said i didn't disagree. i can be bummed a little, as a fangirl, but still agree with their decision from a realistic breeding standpoint. they gelded souper spectacular, and if coz gets gelded too, it's a bummer but i understand and don't disagree.

the only stakes horses i saw from vertigineux's kids were one from where's bailey (G2 winner), and one from treasure trail (IRE G3 winner, G1 placed in the US). the rest of the grandkids seem to be kicking around in lower level races, tho i did see a winner in japan, and an ungraded stakes placed in russia.

that doesn't scream "gotta breed em all" to me, but you seem to know a lot more about it than i do. woulda liked a more in depth analysis. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i did also say i hope eb is successful, instead of being sour grapes. i wouldn't risk my money on her, personally, but someone is and i genuinely hope she produces well for them.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:22 pm

@sweettalk, don't ever stop hoping for the best for the horses you like and/or love. Sometimes hope is all we have to keep going. For example, my head knows that the odds of any stallion becoming a top sire are very small, yet my heart keeps hoping for all of my favorites to become successful -- at least successful enough so that they won't be sold to low-level overseas places.
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Flanders
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Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:09 pm

sweettalk wrote:
sweettalk wrote:while i am a little disappointed he was gelded (not gonna lie, and i absolutely understand and don't disagree with the decision, though lesser horses have been given a chance), i really hope he excels in his new career. it worked very well for Mr Hot Stuff in the jumps races, so i have reason to be optimistic (and i will be, dang it!)
i literally said i didn't disagree. i can be bummed a little, as a fangirl, but still agree with their decision from a realistic breeding standpoint. they gelded souper spectacular, and if coz gets gelded too, it's a bummer but i understand and don't disagree.

the only stakes horses i saw from vertigineux's kids were one from where's bailey (G2 winner), and one from treasure trail (IRE G3 winner, G1 placed in the US). the rest of the grandkids seem to be kicking around in lower level races, tho i did see a winner in japan, and an ungraded stakes placed in russia.

that doesn't scream "gotta breed em all" to me, but you seem to know a lot more about it than i do. woulda liked a more in depth analysis. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i did also say i hope eb is successful, instead of being sour grapes. i wouldn't risk my money on her, personally, but someone is and i genuinely hope she produces well for them.
Ok. Perhaps Zenyatta will have a son down the road that DOES deserve to go to stud. I would think Ziconic would have more appeal than Coz.

The thing with well bred and well related mares, they will always retain their value and they will always be bred. There is zero chance someone is not going to breed any of Zenyatta's sisters. There are a lot more mares who shouldn't have foals than ones from this family.

As for Vertigineux's daughters, they really don't have a lot of starters among them.
Where's Bailey has 2 winners from 4 starters(all her foals of racing age), a G2SW and an allowance level horse. She has not produced a foal since 2013 though.
Balance has 1 winner from 5 starters, 6 foals of RA. Her best was Japanese based Go Nineteen who won 3 of 7 starts through 2014 but hasn't raced since. Her current 2yo hasn't started.
Zenyatta who has 0 winners from 2 starters. She had some bad luck with her War Front filly dying as a weanling and her War Front colt dying shortly after being born.
Treasure Trail who has 2 winners from 3 starters, 4 foals of RA, including G3SW Long Island Sound. Her current 2yo hasn't started.
Another daughter, Pressurizing will have her first foal of racing age in 2018.

So 5 winners from 14 starters(16 of RA), 2 stakes winners(both being GSW). While the winners to foals of racing age isn't great (31.25%), all their foals have started, except 2 current 2yos and sometimes this line needs a little bit of time. That is a positive that they are making it to the track. The SW to foals of racing age is also 12.5%. I see no downside in breeding these mares.

Now if I go look at say the 2017 Keeneland September yearling sales results and pick some of the low price horses who RNA'd under $5,000 or who sold for under $5,000, I guarantee I will find you a mare that shouldn't be bred. One that you have to go back to the 4th dam to find a black type horse.
stark
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Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:55 am

The absolute best thing that could've happened is that Moss and Shirreffs get into a minor disagreement, just enough so that a new trainer can inject a little speed into the breeding.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
sweettalk
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Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:49 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:@sweettalk, don't ever stop hoping for the best for the horses you like and/or love. Sometimes hope is all we have to keep going. For example, my head knows that the odds of any stallion becoming a top sire are very small, yet my heart keeps hoping for all of my favorites to become successful -- at least successful enough so that they won't be sold to low-level overseas places.
that's mostly what i was getting at.

i am confused, tho, i'm not sure why there's excitement for the females in this immediate family because a couple of runners have been solid, but not enough excitement to think the males would do well at stud? i'll re-admit i don't seem to know as much as everyone else here, and that i dont see an issue gelding coz or ziconic - realistically, no one would breed to them except zenyatta fans with money. i do wonder what they would have sired, but the same can be said for pretty much any gelding.

i just don't understand why the boys are no-hopers if the girls are considered to be doing well. i don't mind being wrong in disagreeing that all the girls should definitely be bred, as long as someone explains and teaches.
katmandu
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Mon Dec 25, 2017 6:51 pm

Pardon my bluntness, but at least poorly producing mares (either via genetics/bad choices/luck) produce a lot fewer slaughterhouse candidates (or worse) than stallions. Better too many horses are gelded, than not enough.

Coz is one of the lucky ones.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:11 pm

sweettalk wrote:
Ridan_Remembered wrote:@sweettalk, don't ever stop hoping for the best for the horses you like and/or love. Sometimes hope is all we have to keep going. For example, my head knows that the odds of any stallion becoming a top sire are very small, yet my heart keeps hoping for all of my favorites to become successful -- at least successful enough so that they won't be sold to low-level overseas places.
that's mostly what i was getting at.

i am confused, tho, i'm not sure why there's excitement for the females in this immediate family because a couple of runners have been solid, but not enough excitement to think the males would do well at stud? i'll re-admit i don't seem to know as much as everyone else here, and that i dont see an issue gelding coz or ziconic - realistically, no one would breed to them except zenyatta fans with money. i do wonder what they would have sired, but the same can be said for pretty much any gelding.

i just don't understand why the boys are no-hopers if the girls are considered to be doing well. i don't mind being wrong in disagreeing that all the girls should definitely be bred, as long as someone explains and teaches.
Well-bred horses like Cozmic One and Ziconic could find a farm somewhere to stand them, but it would be a farm in a regional market. In my opinion, although they could probably be sold for stud duty to some of the lower-level farms overseas, it's something I dread for stallions I become attached to. Maybe there's no logical reason for me to dread it, but I do.

With that in mind, I'd rather see them gelded and trained for another career at which they might succeed. Thoroughbreds are an extremely versatile breed. Many succeed at the highest levels in other sports besides racing. One of the most famous retrained Thoroughbreds who became a champion Olympic dressage horse was Keen, a California-bred racehorse. If he had remained a racehorse, Keen would have been a very cheap claimer whose ending would have been obscure and possibly tragic. Instead, he became a legend in dressage and was inducted into the US Dressage Foundation Hall of Fame in 1997. He was a four-time US dressage horse of the year.

Here's a link to an article about Keen, with pictures: https://practicalhorsemanmag.com/lifest ... bred-30745
BaroqueAgain1
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:17 am

IIRC, Keen was HUGE. Even taller than Coz.'
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Kurenai
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:09 am

Cos is 17.2 Hands and so was Keen.
katmandu
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:19 pm

Thoroughbreds can make very nice dressage horses, but warm bloods rule that world, at least at the higher levels (of competition, not training). The USA used thoroughbreds back in the day of Keen because that is what we had. Germany (in particular) had the best cavalry in the world and part of that was their government's extensive breeding program dating back to the 1800s. This is where warm bloods evolved with the government offering stallions to the farmers and their "farm horses" and then the government would come through and take the offspring best suited for their use. And of course it was the nations' cavalries that first represented countries in the Olympic games (dressage/showjumping/3-day eventing). I've been somewhat surprised to see warm bloods move into the 3-day eventing arena, but with the evolution toward a lighter horse (introducing even more thoroughbred blood), they are a lot quicker/stamina, but can still maintain the better movement that warm bloods have, in general.

If Coz is going to be a dressage horse, he needs to pass the 3 correct gaits test, a basic requirement. Dressage has absolutely nothing to do with size other than they need to be over 14.2 hands.

Love those pictures of Keen, horses were ridden more biomechanically correct (not overly round in the topline) in those days.
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Miss Woodford
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:23 pm

katmandu wrote:Thoroughbreds can make very nice dressage horses, but warm bloods rule that world, at least at the higher levels (of competition, not training). The USA used thoroughbreds back in the day of Keen because that is what we had. Germany (in particular) had the best cavalry in the world and part of that was their government's extensive breeding program dating back to the 1800s. This is where warm bloods evolved with the government offering stallions to the farmers and their "farm horses" and then the government would come through and take the offspring best suited for their use. And of course it was the nations' cavalries that first represented countries in the Olympic games (dressage/showjumping/3-day eventing). I've been somewhat surprised to see warm bloods move into the 3-day eventing arena, but with the evolution toward a lighter horse (introducing even more thoroughbred blood), they are a lot quicker/stamina, but can still maintain the better movement that warm bloods have, in general.

If Coz is going to be a dressage horse, he needs to pass the 3 correct gaits test, a basic requirement. Dressage has absolutely nothing to do with size other than they need to be over 14.2 hands.

Love those pictures of Keen, horses were ridden more biomechanically correct (not overly round in the topline) in those days.
With the advent of the short format (removal of the steeplechase and roads and tracks parts), the move towards much more compact bendy xc courses due to loss of land for 3-days, and the overemphasis on dressage it shouldn't be any surprise. The conspiracy theorist in me even thinks that some of these changes were intended to increase the success of European capital-w Warmbloods, as there is a lot more money in breeding and training six-figure sporthorses than picking up an OTTB for a thousand bucks and training it yourself. Eventing (and show hunters, which has also become much more Warmblood-friendly) has also become a cast-off zone for Warmbloods bred for showjumping or dressage who couldn't cut it in those disciplines.
katmandu
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Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:09 pm

Yes, you're right in regards to 3-day eventing, particularly the more "technical" courses. I was aware of the use of dressage to move up scores ("overemphasis", lol), but had forgotten about this. My bailiwick is dressage and in regards to 3-day eventing, don't really think about it too much. It has been a shame to see some of the degradations in dressage (see 2nd paragraph) show up in the 3-day arena, although that's not new. There has been a huge influx of warmbloods (and breeding) into the US since the 80's, it's not entirely surprising they've "trickled down". Having had my dressage horses boarded at multi-discipline farms now and again, I've most definitely seen the influx of WB's to behind every stall door. But this is all pretty old news, I've been out of show world for 10+ years, with my retired breeding/riding horses at home.

I wouldn't dispute your conspiracy theory(you are not alone!), international judging/federation/etc. has it's share of, um. . . intrigue/politics/dumbing down. . .

Oh, and I wouldn't call them "cast offs", just horses finding their appropriate niche. ;) :)
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