Classic Empire

stark
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:24 pm

Classic Empire , the 2016 champion juvenile male for owner John Oxley, has been retired from racing and will stand at Coolmore America's Ashford Stud.

Trained by Mark Casse, Classic Empire had not raced since running second in the May 20 Preakness Stakes (G1). The son of Pioneerof the Nile was expected to be the favorite for the Belmont Stakes Presented by NYRA Bets (G1) but was forced to miss the final leg of the Triple Crown because of a foot abscess.

"Unfortunately, we just ran out of time to get him to the Breeders' Cup Classic (G1)," explained Casse. "I could never get him completely over his foot abscess and it wasn't possible to train him the way I needed in order to bring him back at the highest level which is where he deserved to be. He's an extremely talented horse that can do anything and he overcame a lot of adversity to achieve what he did. I still believe he was the most talented horse of his generation."

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... hford-stud
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Charlie
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:01 pm

That is unfortunate but can't say I am surprised, in the slightest.
sweettalk
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:42 pm

what a waste. would have liked to have seen him at 4. think there will be a big demand for him as is?
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Curtis
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Too bad there wasn't a Plan B--or I suppose by now Plans C or D--like the Malibu and then the Pegasus, or maybe there was and that didn't look possible either.
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Northport
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:24 pm

I was a fan of him as a racehorse... but from a breeding perspective... physically unsound and tendency to refuse to work, pass.
weeeeeeeee
Tessablue
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:08 pm

stark wrote: "Unfortunately, we just ran out of time to get him to the Breeders' Cup Classic (G1),"
The only "unfortunate" aspect of this situation is the apparent fact that they really were trying to get him to the Classic off zero preps. I've never felt so relieved to hear about a high-profile horse's premature retirement.
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Treve
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:56 pm

I don't think Abscesses are a genetic issue.
And they're claiming there wasn't enough time for the BCC but that he's currently travelling beautifully so I don't understand why they'd overlook other end of year G1s or even the Pegasus. Or you know, let him mature into a 4 year old that could strengthen his resumé en route to the 2018 BCC.
Unfortunate, and I'm sorely disappointed but not surprised.

As for the demand I don't think it'd be as hot as if he won as a 4 year old. You've got Cairo Prince who is rumoured to get a fee bump up to 25k and is hot hot hot at the sales, and of course you've got American Pharoah so you already have 2 sons of Pioneerof the Nile with more interesting credentials and credibility at the moment. There's also Social Inclusion standing in Florida. I guess you could say CE is on the same cross as American Pharoah with a stronger female family to back him up but that feels almost moot unless you're offering Classic Empire at a very discounted price. Kind of curious to see what fee they'll set.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Kurenai
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:09 am

It makes no sense to me that they retire him now and don't bring him back as a 4 yo. From an economical point of view it would boost his stud fee by a considerable amount and as Treve said, there's Cairo Prince and Pharoah already on the market.

My best guess is that they think it might reoccur / he maybe lost a step or two / or there are some other issues that would prevent him from racing another year.
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Flanders
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:13 am

We don't know what his stud deal said but I guarantee it said retires at end of 3yo year. When has Coolmore ever bought a horses breeding rights that they didn't retire at 3? Honestly when I see Coolmore has acquired X for future stud, I know they wont race past 3.
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bare it all
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:31 am

Kurenai wrote: My best guess is that they think it might reoccur / he maybe lost a step or two / or there are some other issues that would prevent him from racing another year.
My thought, aside from the obvious Coolmore connection, is maybe the colt doesn't want to be a racehorse or is a little difficult to put to task. I hate to use "headcase" but we have a horse with documented refusals to train and veering at the start of a race. I'm sure the Casse barn had little say in whether he continued on or not, but I'm wondering how much the colt's own mental makeup helped them retire him versus push to something like the Clark or the Pegasus.
Izvestia
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:56 am

I don't find him particularly attractive as a stallion - chronic feet and other physical issues, a little nuts upstairs, and he didn't really develop from 2 to 3, everyone kind of caught up to him. I always thought he looked smallish and light-boned.
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Flanders
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.
Tessablue
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Flanders wrote:Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.
Agreed, I think it's unfair to call him crazy- he was clearly sore and I certainly can't blame him for refusing to hurt himself. I don't know what the distribution of blame between the owner/trainer/stud farm is, but I'm pretty disturbed by the way this horse was treated. If they had just backed off him when his issues flared up in the spring, what are the odds he'd be racing in the Classic?
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Treve
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Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:27 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Flanders wrote:Let's be honest here. They were pushing the horse to get to the Kentucky Derby. They were working him on a bad foot and the horse just refused to work a handful of times because of it. None of that is mental problem, its a horse trying to save himself pain. As for when he dropped Ortiz in the Hopeful, he was a 2yo and they added blinkers and the horse never did it again.
Agreed, I think it's unfair to call him crazy- he was clearly sore and I certainly can't blame him for refusing to hurt himself. I don't know what the distribution of blame between the owner/trainer/stud farm is, but I'm pretty disturbed by the way this horse was treated. If they had just backed off him when his issues flared up in the spring, what are the odds he'd be racing in the Classic?
Yeah in fact I think he's the opposite of crazy, he's a highly intelligent animal, which can definitely be harder to train and can make them quirkier to be around. But he was a very good communicator, he was already trying to say on the trailer ride to the Holy Bull that something was wrong.
And even if they'd still had him running through the TC, I don't understand why he was not given time off to just be a horse and heal fully. He got no down time at all, stayed in the training barn during recovery and was put back to work ASAP. Heck they still could do that, give him the rest of the year off and bring him back hopefully matured out, stronger, healthy and happy. But they choose to retire him instead which is a waste imho.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Izvestia
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Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:25 am

While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.
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Flanders
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Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:05 am

Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.
Yes he may not have. I find it really hard to judge his ability at 3 since he had his foot issue that they persistently worked him on (or tried to).

They just kept trying to force him into races all year, probably knowing he was retiring at the end of the year anyway. I feel if they would have just stopped on him and given him true time off to get better, he may have been able to race the summer/fall races.
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Treve
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Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:43 am

Flanders wrote:
Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.
Yes he may not have. I find it really hard to judge his ability at 3 since he had his foot issue that they persistently worked him on (or tried to).

They just kept trying to force him into races all year, probably knowing he was retiring at the end of the year anyway. I feel if they would have just stopped on him and given him true time off to get better, he may have been able to race the summer/fall races.
Yeah I feel similarly. I do feel he was one of the most talented of the crop, I agree he seemed like a smaller, lighter horse though that's not necessarily a bad thing. I think to be able to come back and win a G1 Derby prep off working on a foot abscess for weeks without anything else shows a degree of ability and determination.
I'm not sure he could've caught AD on Derby day, but I have to wonder what would've happened if he hadn't been brutally mugged at the start (he had an eye swollen shut at the end of the race and was covered in cuts) and taken all that mud and still managing fourth. We'll never know now cause he wasn't given a chance to reach his full potential. In the last pics I saw of him he seemed more developed than during the spring, so while it's speculation I think that if they'd been patient and let him matured he could've moved forward as a 4yo.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Somnambulist
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Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:00 am

Izvestia wrote:While I don't disagree with you (don't get me started on Casse...) I still think he didn't really move forward from 2 to 3. He didn't really race that much though.
This.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Treve
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Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:47 am

Nice piece by Haskin
The Empire that almost was
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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