Always Dreaming

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serenassong
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:59 am

It is indeed. That pic of his stomach was awful- he must have been so uncomfortable.
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Tessablue
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:30 pm

Treve wrote: It sounds that the Gastroguard is used by Todd as a preventive on all his horses so they wouldn't necessarily have known he had ulcers prior or how bad they were before he was actually examined.
But I wonder if the draw reins pre-Derby contributed to his anxiety and stress rising considering he started non-performing right after the Derby. I gotta wonder how long he was living with this bad a case of ulcers.
My thought went to the draw reins as well. They aren't typically used for long and he ran like a sore, unhappy horse in the Preakness. Really hate to question trainers, however.

Sincerely glad to hear that he'll be back next year- I certainly wasn't expecting it. I still think he has a world of talent and would love to see him show it as an older horse.
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Treve
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Yeah I'm not questioning Todd's decision to use them, at some point there's an element of training that is trial and error.

I'm also glad he'll get some R&R and have a chance to prove he wasn't just Nyquist round 2.
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Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


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katmandu
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:59 pm

Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .
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Treve
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:33 pm

katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .
His behaviour didn't change though as far as I remember, people were saying he was always hard to hold back and keep in hand when training/working but he was getting stronger and stronger. I don't know to what extent this is true though.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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Miss Woodford
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:16 pm

katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .
We know that "stress causes ulcers" is a myth for humans and I'm sure it is overblown in horses as well. Diet plays the biggest role - feeding a horse a grain-heavy diet while confined to a stall 23 hours a day is a recipe for digestive issues of all sorts. And that kind of lifestyle (vs hanging out in a pasture all the time) is correlated to having a lot of stress put on them.
Somnambulist
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:22 pm

NSAID usage is not at all responsible?
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katmandu
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:15 pm

Miss Woodford wrote:
katmandu wrote:Relative to draw reins and ulcers, you may be switching cause and effect. . . when horses' behavior suddenly changes, they're usually trying to tell you something. . . putting a gorilla (with all apologies to Mr. Bush) with draw reins on his back may not have been the answer. . . .
We know that "stress causes ulcers" is a myth for humans and I'm sure it is overblown in horses as well. Diet plays the biggest role - feeding a horse a grain-heavy diet while confined to a stall 23 hours a day is a recipe for digestive issues of all sorts. And that kind of lifestyle (vs hanging out in a pasture all the time) is correlated to having a lot of stress put on them.
My point was that draw reins may have been the result of his ulcer driven behavior. . . . he became explosive and uncontrollable on the track so they tied his nose to his chest. . . . Makes it virtually impossible for a horse to get his hind end under him in order to "launch". It's also known that exercise can cause the most concentrated stomach acid from the lowest part of the stomach to be pushed up into the upper area where ulcers develop. Ouch. Given that ~90% of performance horses have ulcers, he was hardly in the minority. NSAIDs are also well associated with ulcers, as noted. But I wasn't addressing the "why" of the ulcers, only his behavior. And it's all speculative anyway.

It would be very cool if he regains his promise, and goes on as a 4 year old.
Tessablue
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Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:22 pm

Stress isn't going to cause an ulcer, but I'm sure it can increase a horse's symptoms or susceptibility and it's been found that common stressful activities like trailering are associated with ulcer formation (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16178400). Also it looks like horses with ulcers have zero to minimal Helicobacter in their digestive tracts (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26809803) which is really interesting! So I'd say reasons are still pretty unknown, but at least there appears to be an effort to look into it.

I totally hear the point about how the ulcers could have caused his behavior before the Derby- usually I do think of rank horses as unhappy, but he looked to me like a very forward, enthusiastic horse in those pre-Derby gallops. Doesn't mean he wasn't sick though. I just hope all this hasn't soured him on racing.
BaroqueAgain1
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:18 am

Also it looks like horses with ulcers have zero to minimal Helicobacter in their digestive tracts...

Would it be helpful to add a probiotic targeting that lack to the horse's supplement regimen?
Tessablue
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Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:43 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:Also it looks like horses with ulcers have zero to minimal Helicobacter in their digestive tracts...

Would it be helpful to add a probiotic targeting that lack to the horse's supplement regimen?
Helicobacter is actually associated with ulcer formation in humans, though it's usually harmless- so it could indicate that ulcer formation in horses has a different mechanism. I think it's highly likely that many racehorses have aberrant gut bacteria, but according to this surprisingly readable and relevant review (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4895607/), the results thus far have been very ambiguous and there just isn't enough research out there to know for sure. We still know very little about the gut microbiome in humans, let alone horses- but good news is gut microbiome research is very trendy right now, so we're likely to see more findings in the near future!
Point Given
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Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:08 pm

Always Dreaming (4-Year-Old Colt)
Date: January 29, 2018
Track: PALM BEACH DOWNS
Distance: Three Furlongs
Time: 37:13 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 1/1
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Starine
Posts: 3957
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Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Second Chance at a Dream by Steve Haskin
http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-ra ... dream.aspx
Point Given
Posts: 424
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:14 pm

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:39 pm

Always Dreaming (4-Year-Old Colt)
Date: March 2, 2018
Track: PALM BEACH DOWNS
Distance: Five Furlongs
Time: 1.01:79 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 3/5
Point Given
Posts: 424
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:14 pm

Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:50 pm

Always Dreaming (4-Year-Old Colt)
Date: March 17, 2018
Track: PALM BEACH DOWNS
Distance: Five Furlongs
Time: 1.00:68 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 1/10
Point Given
Posts: 424
Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2013 8:14 pm

Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:52 pm

Always Dreaming (4-Year-Old Colt)
Date: March 24, 2018
Track: PALM BEACH DOWNS
Distance: Four Furlongs
Time: 48:99 Breezing
Track Condition: Fast
Surface: Dirt
Rank: 1/30
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