Accelerate vs Justify HOTY

Who gets your vote?

Justify
23
32%
Accelerate
49
68%
 
Total votes: 72
stark
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 pm

Curious.....
If you voted for Accelerate, would it be extra nice to see a win in the Pegasus to bolster your opinion, or does it make no difference at all to you, even if he were to finish off the board?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Curtis
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 4:45 pm

stark wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 2:00 pm
Curious.....
If you voted for Accelerate, would it be extra nice to see a win in the Pegasus to bolster your opinion, or does it make no difference at all to you, even if he were to finish off the board?
You mean like Chrome?
MeaghanEdwards
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 6:57 pm

Both great horses in their own right, love Accelerate, he has an impressive resume indeed but my vote goes to Justify for HOTY. A Triple Crown winner doesn't come around every day.
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ElPrado2
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:49 pm

A win in the Pegasus should have no bearing on a decision. The Pegasus is in a different year. The decision should not be influenced outside of the time period it is current for.
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mariasmon
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Sun Dec 30, 2018 11:46 pm

ElPrado2 wrote:
Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:49 pm
A win in the Pegasus should have no bearing on a decision. The Pegasus is in a different year. The decision should not be influenced outside of the time period it is current for.
It doesn't matter one way or another, because the awards will be announced before the Pegasus is even run.
sweettalk
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Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:36 am

Apollo wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:20 am
There is no good argument for Accelerate. He will be forgotten as soon as his career ends.

Only horse racing could be dense enough to pretend this is any type of debate at all. It reminds me of football fans who ignore the big picture and change opinion of every player and team every week. I remember working for a sportsbook manager who said his dream scenario was to have every game and every sporting event televised every day, and every bettor watching each and every one of those games. His reasoning was incredibly sound: The more decisions they were forced to make, and the more they paid attention to the most recent outcome, the worse their clarity would be.

And that's exactly what happened here. The poll result in itself is a condemnation of racing mindset.
does it matter if some of us (edited so as to be more clear I don't literally mean every single race fan) remember justify for bad reasons? when someone mentions him, i remember that the explosive negativity around his belmont put me off of horse racing all together for almost 4 months. everyone hated that race, swore he'd have lost it in a "fair running", then just as soon as he appeared he was gone, which caused FURTHER backlash.

i dunno why suddenly everyone's defending his triple crown, because 6 months ago everyone was furious about it. but you're technically right, the arguing and the ugly words are definitely more memorable than a consistent, year long campaign.
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Katewerk
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Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:07 am

sweettalk wrote:
Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:36 am
Apollo wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 5:20 am
There is no good argument for Accelerate. He will be forgotten as soon as his career ends.

Only horse racing could be dense enough to pretend this is any type of debate at all. It reminds me of football fans who ignore the big picture and change opinion of every player and team every week. I remember working for a sportsbook manager who said his dream scenario was to have every game and every sporting event televised every day, and every bettor watching each and every one of those games. His reasoning was incredibly sound: The more decisions they were forced to make, and the more they paid attention to the most recent outcome, the worse their clarity would be.

And that's exactly what happened here. The poll result in itself is a condemnation of racing mindset.
does it matter if some of us (edited so as to be more clear I don't literally mean every single race fan) remember justify for bad reasons? when someone mentions him, i remember that the explosive negativity around his belmont put me off of horse racing all together for almost 4 months. everyone hated that race, swore he'd have lost it in a "fair running", then just as soon as he appeared he was gone, which caused FURTHER backlash.

i dunno why suddenly everyone's defending his triple crown, because 6 months ago everyone was furious about it. but you're technically right, the arguing and the ugly words are definitely more memorable than a consistent, year long campaign.
This "everyone" you speak of -- could you be more precise?
jjacks1
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am

Not to start anything but .... I'm old and I don't always understand the modern world. I love horse racing because it truly respects it's traditions. The Triple Crown is STILL the Triple Crown. No one won it for 37 years. People were talking all sorts of things - more time between the races to allow modern thoroughbreds to recover, make the races easier so we would have more winners. All sorts of trash. Then American Pharaoh changed everything. The Triple Crown was still the ultimate test and everyone loved him. He was a national hero.
Fast forward 3 years to Justify and my, how that tune has changed! He's not a great horse, he doesn't deserve the honors. Perhaps Bob Baffert was a bit clever about how he staged his 2nd Triple Crown but the horse still had to run those races and win. I remember telling people he would never win the Kentucky Derby, no way, no how. But when I watched the Belmont, I screamed and hollered just like everyone else and was thrilled that he won.
In America, we love to build up our heroes and then tear them down. Sometimes we do both at the same time aka California Chrome when he was racing. Just because people's memories are only 60 seconds long these days doesn't mean that events that happened in the first part of the year are worthless. Do you remember who won medals in the last Olympics? That didn't happen lately but are you going to say, eh, so what, gold medal, big deal, means zip. Justify won the Triple Crown and THAT is still a big deal. Thirty-seven years, remember? Did the people in 1950's America feel the Triple Crown was garbage when they had seven Triple Crown winners in the previous twenty years?
They did not because they had something we do not - respect. This is a cheap world and things are getting devalued by the day. People, accomplishments, heroes - for all of our lip service, they mean very little in the 21st century. Have a bit of respect. The Kentucky Derby still means something, the Triple Crown still means something. Once we toss all our prized traditions overboard, we are merely drifting aimlessly, alone at sea. We might as well start giving out participation trophies in racing - we already do with purse money backed by racinos.
As an old woman from Kentucky, it hurts my heart to hear what is said about the Derby and the Triple Crown. There is spirit and heart and courage still in those old traditions. As long as someone holds them dear, they still have their power to create magic and dreams. If you asked Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid al-Maktoum what race he still desperately wants to win, after all the things he has accomplished, what do you think he'd say? See you on the first Saturday in May.
Love ya! :D
Tessablue
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am

jjacks1 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am
Did the people in 1950's America feel the Triple Crown was garbage when they had seven Triple Crown winners in the previous twenty years?
They did not because they had something we do not - respect.
Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
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ElPrado2
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:34 am

Thank you, jjacks.
Somnambulist
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:07 am

Tessablue wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am
jjacks1 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am
Did the people in 1950's America feel the Triple Crown was garbage when they had seven Triple Crown winners in the previous twenty years?
They did not because they had something we do not - respect.
Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
Don't forget McCarthyism.

For all the desire to respect the TC as it is why does no one bring up that we have had two winners since CDI manipulated the entries?
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
peeptoad
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:40 am

Somnambulist wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:07 am


For all the desire to respect the TC as it is why does no one bring up that we have had two winners since CDI manipulated the entries?
I have been thinking about this myself over the last couple of months. The fact that most of the true speed and pace has all but been eliminated via the points system is definitely having an effect on the outcome of the Derby in particular.
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pointgivenfan
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:51 am

peeptoad wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:40 am
Somnambulist wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:07 am


For all the desire to respect the TC as it is why does no one bring up that we have had two winners since CDI manipulated the entries?
I have been thinking about this myself over the last couple of months. The fact that most of the true speed and pace has all but been eliminated via the points system is definitely having an effect on the outcome of the Derby in particular.
I'm not sure this is true.

2013 - 22.57, 45.33, 1:09.80, 1:36.16
2014 - 23.04, 47.37, 1:11.80, 1:37.45
2015 - 23.24, 47.34, 1:11.29, 1:36.45
2016 - 22.58, 45.72, 1:10.40, 1:35.61
2017 - 22.70, 46.52, 1:11.12, 1:37.27
2018 - 22.24, 45.77, 1:11.01, 1:37.35

I couldn't be bothered to look past 2010, but only California Chrome and American Pharoah seem to have had a pace scenario that didn't fall in line with the type of fractions we often saw before the changeover to the points system.

I'm not a huge fan of the points system, but I also am not willing to say that it's killed speed in the Derby.
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Katewerk
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:24 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am
jjacks1 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am
Did the people in 1950's America feel the Triple Crown was garbage when they had seven Triple Crown winners in the previous twenty years?
They did not because they had something we do not - respect.
Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
That is absolutely the worst cheap shot response I've ever seen on this forum. Shame on you.
thinair
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:47 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:24 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am
jjacks1 wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:56 am
Did the people in 1950's America feel the Triple Crown was garbage when they had seven Triple Crown winners in the previous twenty years?
They did not because they had something we do not - respect.
Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
That is absolutely the worst cheap shot response I've ever seen on this forum. Shame on you.
The former or the latter?

The latter was a proper response. The notion that posting inaccurate things on message boards is OK is completely lost on me.
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Curtis
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:09 pm

thinair wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:47 pm
Katewerk wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:24 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am

Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
That is absolutely the worst cheap shot response I've ever seen on this forum. Shame on you.
The former or the latter?

The latter was a proper response. The notion that posting inaccurate things on message boards is OK is completely lost on me.
When legend becomes fact.....print the legend.
peeptoad
Posts: 2752
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:13 pm

pointgivenfan wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:51 am
peeptoad wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:40 am
Somnambulist wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:07 am


For all the desire to respect the TC as it is why does no one bring up that we have had two winners since CDI manipulated the entries?
I have been thinking about this myself over the last couple of months. The fact that most of the true speed and pace has all but been eliminated via the points system is definitely having an effect on the outcome of the Derby in particular.
I'm not sure this is true.

2013 - 22.57, 45.33, 1:09.80, 1:36.16
2014 - 23.04, 47.37, 1:11.80, 1:37.45
2015 - 23.24, 47.34, 1:11.29, 1:36.45
2016 - 22.58, 45.72, 1:10.40, 1:35.61
2017 - 22.70, 46.52, 1:11.12, 1:37.27
2018 - 22.24, 45.77, 1:11.01, 1:37.35

I couldn't be bothered to look past 2010, but only California Chrome and American Pharoah seem to have had a pace scenario that didn't fall in line with the type of fractions we often saw before the changeover to the points system.

I'm not a huge fan of the points system, but I also am not willing to say that it's killed speed in the Derby.
You may very well be correct and I'll admit I'm wrong. I do think the points system has pretty much eliminated any real "sprinter" from qualifying though. And I do believe that has an effect on the pace overall, but I haven't actually run any numbers.
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Katewerk
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:14 pm

thinair wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:47 pm
Katewerk wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 12:24 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:28 am

Ah yes, those halcyon days of respect and civility in America- the Jim Crow Era.
That is absolutely the worst cheap shot response I've ever seen on this forum. Shame on you.
The former or the latter?

The latter was a proper response. The notion that posting inaccurate things on message boards is OK is completely lost on me.

If you think it's good general policy to use guilt by association to tag the traditions of your sport with the ugly smear of racism, knock yourself out. See how it works out for you. You make your living in horse racing -- I don't.
thinair
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:20 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:14 pm



If you think it's good general policy to use guilt by association to tag the traditions of your sport with the ugly smear of racism, knock yourself out. See how it works out for you. You make your living in horse racing -- I don't.
Now who's taking cheap shots?

Racism, sadly. is prevalent everywhere. The response you decided to attack was pointing out the preposterous hypocrisy of the post it responded to....which was actually a direct insult to people today ( whether warranted or not ). The first stone was thrown by that poster, the response just pointed out how ridiculous it was.

The very idea that people might vote for Accelerate over Justify for HOY because they lack respect, is insulting, at the very least.

I haven't seen this much false vitriol over a an interesting debate since Zenyatta/Rachel. It's a discussion. It doesn't need to constantly get personal. The "respect" comment was personal. The response was both correct and clever.
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pointgivenfan
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Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:21 pm

peeptoad wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:13 pm
pointgivenfan wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:51 am
peeptoad wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:40 am

I have been thinking about this myself over the last couple of months. The fact that most of the true speed and pace has all but been eliminated via the points system is definitely having an effect on the outcome of the Derby in particular.
I'm not sure this is true.

2013 - 22.57, 45.33, 1:09.80, 1:36.16
2014 - 23.04, 47.37, 1:11.80, 1:37.45
2015 - 23.24, 47.34, 1:11.29, 1:36.45
2016 - 22.58, 45.72, 1:10.40, 1:35.61
2017 - 22.70, 46.52, 1:11.12, 1:37.27
2018 - 22.24, 45.77, 1:11.01, 1:37.35

I couldn't be bothered to look past 2010, but only California Chrome and American Pharoah seem to have had a pace scenario that didn't fall in line with the type of fractions we often saw before the changeover to the points system.

I'm not a huge fan of the points system, but I also am not willing to say that it's killed speed in the Derby.
You may very well be correct and I'll admit I'm wrong. I do think the points system has pretty much eliminated any real "sprinter" from qualifying though. And I do believe that has an effect on the pace overall, but I haven't actually run any numbers.
I don't disagree there, but Promises Fulfilled showed up anyway, so who knows.
"I am the man who with the utmost daring discovered what had been discovered before." - G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy.
Avatar: Goldikova - 2010 Prix de la Foret, copyright yours truly. =)
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