Matings 2018

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sweettalk
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:03 am

nicks a C w arrogate, A or better with tapit, tiznow, into mischief, to honor and serve, and shackleford. oh well, her mare. zenyatta was a C (i think) before she was zenyatta, so i guess anything can happen.
Get out to Lenny’s for their big grand opening sale. Find eight government secrets and get a free kidnapping and personality reassignment so that you’ll forget you found them!
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Sparrow Castle
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:16 am

Dickinson -> Curlin
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Ballerina
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:50 pm

sweettalk wrote:nicks a C w arrogate, A or better with tapit, tiznow, into mischief, to honor and serve, and shackleford. oh well, her mare. zenyatta was a C (i think) before she was zenyatta, so i guess anything can happen.
Well, yeah, breeding more oft then not is a crap shoot, but True Nicks is a good tool. I would have thought either Tapit or Bernardini both A++ - Bernardini being a similar style to Songbird.
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Treve
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:45 pm

Ballerina wrote:
sweettalk wrote:nicks a C w arrogate, A or better with tapit, tiznow, into mischief, to honor and serve, and shackleford. oh well, her mare. zenyatta was a C (i think) before she was zenyatta, so i guess anything can happen.
Well, yeah, breeding more oft then not is a crap shoot, but True Nicks is a good tool. I would have thought either Tapit or Bernardini both A++ - Bernardini being a similar style to Songbird.
Bernadini would've been the same cross as Rachel's Valentina who turned out to be a G1 winner.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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mariasmon
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:50 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:Dickinson -> Curlin
Yuck
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Sparrow Castle
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:32 pm

mariasmon wrote:
Sparrow Castle wrote:Dickinson -> Curlin
Yuck
Yeah, I didn't think it was a very exciting match, not getting many graded stakes winners.
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Sparrow Castle
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:48 pm

Hill 'n' Dale Farms‏ @HillnDaleFarm
Bubbler dam of Champion Arrogate will be visiting Curlin in 2018!
BaroqueAgain1
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:27 pm

I'd be interested in knowing their thinking here. Isn't there a son of UBS out there good enough for her?
Maybe the problem is that UBS hasn't actually sired any really good stallions? :?
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mariasmon
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:46 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:I'd be interested in knowing their thinking here. Isn't there a son of UBS out there good enough for her?
Maybe the problem is that UBS hasn't actually sired any really good stallions? :?
That worries me, but I'd still try Arrogate on a mare proven with UBS, like Lemons Forever. I wouldn't mind seeing Bubbler go to something else from the Unbridled line (Empire Maker, POTN, Pharoah...take your pick).
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Treve
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:56 pm

mariasmon wrote:
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:I'd be interested in knowing their thinking here. Isn't there a son of UBS out there good enough for her?
Maybe the problem is that UBS hasn't actually sired any really good stallions? :?
That worries me, but I'd still try Arrogate on a mare proven with UBS, like Lemons Forever. I wouldn't mind seeing Bubbler go to something else from the Unbridled line (Empire Maker, POTN, Pharoah...take your pick).
After reading the article I feel they should've gone with their first gut pick for Songbird, Pioneerof the Nile. Even Empire Maker would have been an interesting (and proven) choice, I really don't think Arrogate is even a great match for her physically and conformationally they do not complement each other or compensate each other's flaws.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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mariasmon
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:05 pm

Arrogate has straight front legs, which would be an absolute requirement for any mating with Songbird.
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Starine
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:07 pm

Makes more sense to send her to the senior stallion first, but what do I know?
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Ballerina
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:52 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
mariasmon wrote:
Sparrow Castle wrote:Dickinson -> Curlin
Yuck
Yeah, I didn't think it was a very exciting match, not getting many graded stakes winners.
Nicks out to an A.

From Wiki

Though his offspring may be somewhat slow to mature, Curlin is now regarded as a source of classic stamina. His graded stakes winners include:

Exaggerator: winner of the 2016 Preakness Stakes, Santa Anita Derby, Haskell Invitational, 2nd in the Kentucky Derby. Winner of the 2015 Delta Downs Jackpot Stakes and the Saratoga Special

Palace Malice: 2013 Belmont Stakes, 2014 Metropolitan Handicap

Stellar Wind (horse): 2015 Champion 3-Year-Old Filly – won 2015 Santa Anita Oaks, Torrey Pines Stakes, Summertime Oaks, Santa Ysabel Stakes, 2nd in 2015 Breeders' Cup Distaff. In 2016, won Clement L. Hirsch and Zenyatta Stakes, 3rd in Distaff. In 2017, won Apple Blossom Handicap and Beholder Mile Stakes

Keen Ice: 2015 Travers Stakes

Curalina: 2015 Acorn Stakes, Coaching Club American Oaks, 2016 La Troienne Stakes, Shuvee Handicap

Off the Tracks; 2016 Mother Goose Stakes

Irish War Cry: 2017 Wood Memorial Stakes, Holy Bull Stakes, 2nd Belmont Stakes

Connect: 2016 Cigar Mile Handicap, Pennsylvania Derby. In 2017, won Westchester Stakes

Terra Promessa: 2016 Fantasy Stakes, Honeybee Stakes. In 2017, won Bayakoa Handicap, Allaire duPont Distaff Stakes

Curlin's Approval: In 2017, won Royal Delta Stakes, Hurricane Bertie Stakes

Ocean Knight: 2015 Sam F. Davis Stakes

Diversy Harbor: 2015 Buena Vista Stakes
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Sparrow Castle
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Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:39 pm

Ballerina wrote:
Sparrow Castle wrote:
mariasmon wrote: Yuck
Yeah, I didn't think it was a very exciting match, not getting many graded stakes winners.
Nicks out to an A.

From Wiki

Though his offspring may be somewhat slow to mature, Curlin is now regarded as a source of classic stamina. His graded stakes winners include:

Exaggerator: winner of the 2016 Preakness Stakes, Santa Anita Derby, Haskell Invitational, 2nd in the Kentucky Derby. Winner of the 2015 Delta Downs Jackpot Stakes and the Saratoga Special

Palace Malice: 2013 Belmont Stakes, 2014 Metropolitan Handicap

Stellar Wind (horse): 2015 Champion 3-Year-Old Filly – won 2015 Santa Anita Oaks, Torrey Pines Stakes, Summertime Oaks, Santa Ysabel Stakes, 2nd in 2015 Breeders' Cup Distaff. In 2016, won Clement L. Hirsch and Zenyatta Stakes, 3rd in Distaff. In 2017, won Apple Blossom Handicap and Beholder Mile Stakes

Keen Ice: 2015 Travers Stakes

Curalina: 2015 Acorn Stakes, Coaching Club American Oaks, 2016 La Troienne Stakes, Shuvee Handicap

Off the Tracks; 2016 Mother Goose Stakes

Irish War Cry: 2017 Wood Memorial Stakes, Holy Bull Stakes, 2nd Belmont Stakes

Connect: 2016 Cigar Mile Handicap, Pennsylvania Derby. In 2017, won Westchester Stakes

Terra Promessa: 2016 Fantasy Stakes, Honeybee Stakes. In 2017, won Bayakoa Handicap, Allaire duPont Distaff Stakes

Curlin's Approval: In 2017, won Royal Delta Stakes, Hurricane Bertie Stakes

Ocean Knight: 2015 Sam F. Davis Stakes

Diversy Harbor: 2015 Buena Vista Stakes
Probably just me. When I saw Jess's Dream and Kenyan were the only two Winners direct-sired by Curlin out of MDO mares, and Rock Fall (Speightstown) was the only GSW, and the cross got only 4% SWs from starters, I lost my enthusiasm.
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Treve
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Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:43 am

mariasmon wrote:Arrogate has straight front legs, which would be an absolute requirement for any mating with Songbird.
Songbird wasn't as badly over at the knees as a youngster as she is now which makes me think that while there is a possibility that she has a congenital predisposition, the stress of racing is mostly responsible (and perhaps the issues she developed later on, as she compensated exacerbated this). Not like Curlin who is as crooked as his mama. Nevertheless, I actually was thinking about her legs when I made that comment, Arrogate doesn't have a great shoulder. Assuming her front legs are genetically predisposed, if the baby inherits Arrogate's shoulder (which contributes to his long, low run style) that will probably bring out the worst tendency in the baby's legs as it runs and will not be optimal for long term soundness or a long career.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
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mariasmon
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Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:35 am

Songbird *does* have a fantastic shoulder.
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Charlie
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Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:17 am

Arrogate may have straight legs but they look small on his large body. Could you image a horse with his large body and straight shoulder and with her legs?
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mariasmon
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Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:40 am

I really don't think Arrogate's legs are too small for his body. The shoulder observation is spot-on. And he has a really unattractive head (irrelevant, for the most part). Bob Baffert doesn't wind up with a lot of auction purchases who aren't nicely balanced. Donato Lanni can pick a horse for me any day. Any day after I win the lottery, that is :lol:
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Ballerina
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Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:25 am

Treve wrote:Not like Curlin who is as crooked as his mama.
Curlin had a wonky ankle as a youngster due to a calcium deposit plus he was bowing out at the knee and his head looked like it belonged on another horse. He just wasn't very attractive as a youngster. But he outgrew most of it. He now has a handsome head and a beautiful shoulder. In short, he's a drop dead handsome horse. If there is some perceived unsoundness in his front legs, it sure didn't hurt his chances running. He's one of the soundest horses in the business and unless he is passing on the knee problem to his get, I think it means no never mind.

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mariasmon
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Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:40 am

The only thing I really don't like about Curlin is that he's quite short-legged for such a strapping body.
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