APPLE Should or Shouldn't?

stark
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:28 pm

I'm very confident that some things in this country can be kept confidential despite what Helen Thomas may have wanted to know about. I'm curious who let this one leak.....did Homeland Security announce they were going to ask APPLE for a favor or did APPLE announce that the Government approached them first?

Seems to me that by keeping this one thing secret, all sides could've reached agreement, no?

p.s. a stretch comparison......I have a safety deposit box with secret documents stored at a major financial institution, they have a key and I have key and both keys have to be used in tandem to open the box. I'm also a terrorist who just killed some people and then I got killed by the cops. Is it unreasonable to think that there wouldn't be a court order to open that sealed box and that it wouldn't be done in a hurry without a lot of fuss? Is a key really any different than encryption?

p.p.s. even though this issue may wind up in the Supreme Court for a ruling, I'm hoping it isn't considered Political for this forum, curious if we're any different than the 50/50 populace?
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Admin
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:42 pm

I'm fully in support of Apple having to comply. Our phones are computers, really, and so I see this no differently than I do a court order to search a computer. The one "hitch" that I see has to do with ordering a private company (or person) to "work" for the government, but if you're the inventor of a safe, in essence, that's uncrackable except by you, I'm going to think it's alright that you may be called upon to crack that safe on occasion. They can reimburse you for your time/skill.
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Somnambulist
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:25 pm

Nope. See no reason why they should comply. Good for them for putting up a stink.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
BaroqueAgain1
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:28 pm

IMHO, the safe deposit box/safe comparison isn't quite apples and apples.
If you get a court order to open one particular safe deposit box or safe, the action doesn't open EVERY other similar deposit box or safe in the country. And it doesn't make that one open-it-all key available then to any nefarious person/group who knows how to use it...which, if I understand the situation correctly, might be what would happen if Apple designs a "back door" to their encryption code.
I see both sides, but there has to be a compromise somewhere. :?
Somnambulist
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:48 pm

No one needs access like that to my nudes. JK.

I agree there's probably a compromise but the government has access to enough of my money and life. God Forbid Sanders gets in and Jesus knows what they'll do with my shit.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
Admin
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:20 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:IMHO, the safe deposit box/safe comparison isn't quite apples and apples.
If you get a court order to open one particular safe deposit box or safe, the action doesn't open EVERY other similar deposit box or safe in the country. And it doesn't make that one open-it-all key available then to any nefarious person/group who knows how to use it...which, if I understand the situation correctly, might be what would happen if Apple designs a "back door" to their encryption code.
I see both sides, but there has to be a compromise somewhere. :?
If Apple is worried that their coding can be stolen, then aren't they admitting to a lack of proper security?
"This is how we roll in the Shire." -- Leonard
Admin
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Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:26 pm

Somnambulist wrote:No one needs access like that to my nudes. JK.

I agree there's probably a compromise but the government has access to enough of my money and life. God Forbid Sanders gets in and Jesus knows what they'll do with my shit.
I'd agree with you in cases where the reach is wide. That's not the case here. There is a court order for this search. Under these circumstances you don't have much of a concern the the government is going to get a court ordered warrant unless you're a criminal.

The amount of data that the big tech companies have on us is already mind boggling, and we're trusting them with that.

These are the growing pains of the tech era. It's way too late to put the horses back in the barn.
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Somnambulist
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Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:49 am

Well I wouldn't say I'm trusting them. They've made it impossible to exist and or work without a lot of it and to function in this country you just have to accept it.

If the encryption thing were only to be used for good purposes like finding people who want to cause us harm, or things along those lines, then yeah, go for it. But the world never operates that way.
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
stark
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Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:47 am

Who's in charge of the slippery slope?

For the folks that think 100,000,000's of innocent folks at Starbucks are going to be impacted by this decision.....doesn't that responsibility lie with APPLE?
Are they saying that once it's invented that they can't control it and it would be available for mass release?

Hogwash!

APPLE is in control of the destiny period.

If they write the code, use it for this one request, get reimbursed for their labor and then drag it to the recycle bin, doesn't the slippery slope concept dry up rather quickly? At least it does from the Government's side of things, there's nothing Washington DC can do to slide down the slope, if it fails it would be on APPLE, no?

Now if APPLE wants to think that the Government's request might happen again in April, and elect not to destroy the secret proprietary codes, that's okay but they're the ones in total control of mass hysteria, which there won't be any if APPLE controls things the way they should, are they really afraid they'll fail at that?
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Admin
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 12:23 am

Bingo, Stark.
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Ruffian_fan
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:06 am

Admin wrote:
BaroqueAgain1 wrote:IMHO, the safe deposit box/safe comparison isn't quite apples and apples.
If you get a court order to open one particular safe deposit box or safe, the action doesn't open EVERY other similar deposit box or safe in the country. And it doesn't make that one open-it-all key available then to any nefarious person/group who knows how to use it...which, if I understand the situation correctly, might be what would happen if Apple designs a "back door" to their encryption code.
I see both sides, but there has to be a compromise somewhere. :?
If Apple is worried that their coding can be stolen, then aren't they admitting to a lack of proper security?
I don't see that as admitting a lack of security. I see that as acknowledging that somewhere, sometime, someone might get through.
Ruffian_fan
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:09 am

stark wrote:Who's in charge of the slippery slope?

For the folks that think 100,000,000's of innocent folks at Starbucks are going to be impacted by this decision.....doesn't that responsibility lie with APPLE?
Are they saying that once it's invented that they can't control it and it would be available for mass release?

Hogwash!

APPLE is in control of the destiny period.

If they write the code, use it for this one request, get reimbursed for their labor and then drag it to the recycle bin, doesn't the slippery slope concept dry up rather quickly? At least it does from the Government's side of things, there's nothing Washington DC can do to slide down the slope, if it fails it would be on APPLE, no?

Now if APPLE wants to think that the Government's request might happen again in April, and elect not to destroy the secret proprietary codes, that's okay but they're the ones in total control of mass hysteria, which there won't be any if APPLE controls things the way they should, are they really afraid they'll fail at that?
The human brain is not very good at unlearning things, as a general rule. Once something has been created, it cannot be uncreated. You may trash it destroy it, whatever, but there will still be those with the knowledge of how it was created.

Apple is absolutely doing the right thing. I would have been highly disappointed to hear that they rolled over.
stark
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 1:48 pm

Ruffian_fan wrote: Apple is absolutely doing the right thing. I would have been highly disappointed to hear that they rolled over.
But wait, the story gets even better.....

The government now says to APPLE "we understand your hesitancy and you don't have to break the encryption code, we've got guys that can guess the user's password, but we understand that if we miss too many times then it'll automatically erase itself" So, can you APPLE just disconnect that feature and let our guys figure out how to break in?

The whole issue came up in the Republican debate last night and the distinguished gentleman from Ohio nailed it....."the problem here is that Obama (if it was ever necessary to go that high) failed to convene a meeting, lock the door and say we need to reach an agreement before anybody leaves". This NEVER should have been played out on the nightly news!

And as for the kids holding posters in front of Starbucks that read "Secure Phones Save Lives" and other such nonsense about privacy issues I have a question.....isn't that the same kid that posted pictures of his privates on Facebook along with other unimaginable details about his personal life that NEVER would be in the public domain without the aid of APPLE?
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BlindLucky
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 2:35 pm

That's actually still the same story, though.

They can't just disconnect the feature, that's at the core of the issue. They have to write code that compromises the OS and allows brute force attacks to continue past their current safeguards that would lock/erase data. That's the backdoor/master key that the government wants them to create, and if they do it for one phone and set this precedent, Apple is arguing that it won't stop there. They'll want it again for another phone. And another. And another. And it could be expanded beyond just the use case for phone security and into other businesses/industries. It's the scary side of the government forcing a private company to weaken the security on a privately developed product that they're afraid sets a Big Brother precedent we can't go back from.

I tend to side with Apple on this one. And I don't even like Apple. Although I do tend to think that if you aren't doing anything wrong, then why should you care if someone looks at your phone--but then where do you draw the line at reasonable expectations of privacy? This issue isn't about one phone from a known terrorist. It's about opening Pandora's box and letting the government dictate security-weakening terms to a privately held company that can be used as a legal precedent to do it again in the future.

My boss just left to speak at a cyber security conference in D.C. tonight. I work at a software startup that's creating a mobile application development platform, so this topic has been discussed in the office almost every day since Apple went public with their press release. These guys can explain it down to the most minuscule detail, but my eyes glaze over once they start their technospeak.
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stark
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:19 pm

BlindLucky wrote:Apple is arguing that it won't stop there. They'll want it again for another phone. And another. And another.
But that's all pure conjecture at this point, NOBODY really knows the actual answer to their concerns, but we do know that National Security should be the trump card today, and APPLE is still in control going forward. Will there be more one-off's, most likely, but how does anybody logically jump to millions of innocent users being negatively impacted?

p.s. why do they call it the Trump card? ;)
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BlindLucky
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:40 pm

stark wrote:
BlindLucky wrote:Apple is arguing that it won't stop there. They'll want it again for another phone. And another. And another.
But that's all pure conjecture at this point, NOBODY really knows the actual answer to their concerns, but we do know that National Security should be the trump card today, and APPLE is still in control going forward. Will there be more one-off's, most likely, but how does anybody logically jump to millions of innocent users being negatively impacted?
Probably because of things like the NSA legally conducting warrantless wiretapping on who knows how many people, so it's not pure conjecture.

I really don't know what the answer is, and I'm still torn on how I feel about the whole thing.
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stark
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Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:11 pm

BlindLucky wrote: I really don't know what the answer is, and I'm still torn on how I feel about the whole thing.
Yep, that's why it's a 50/50 issue when people get polled, no definitive right answer out there.

Could be as simple as there's 50% of the world is pessimistic fairly certain something will go wrong, while the other 50% have that EGBOK philosophy on a daily basis, everything's gonna be okay!

Count me in with the latter.

Curious if you can share anything related from your bosses speaking engagement in DC?
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BlindLucky
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Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:57 pm

stark wrote: Curious if you can share anything related from your bosses speaking engagement in DC?
I don't even know what the conference is called--my eyes were glazing over at that point :lol:

I'll find out when he gets back. They may have recorded it, or at least have some info about it online somewhere.
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BlindLucky
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Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:06 pm

stark wrote:Curious if you can share anything related from your bosses speaking engagement in DC?
So it turns out that there's not much he can share, because he and about 10 other tech CEOs were speaking to a Congressional panel on how to best explain cyber security issues to the general public. Seems that Congress mostly just had their fingers in their ears and wanted sound bites, not nuanced explanations. :roll:
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Bookman
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Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:49 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG0bAaK7p9s&app=desktop

Published on Feb 29, 2016
"Yes, it has gotten this bad. In language simple enough for even a child to understand, John McAfee explains for the world and for the FBI how to hack an iPhone or any computer that is in physical custody. No need for network-connected backdoors. Batteries included. "
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