Native Dancer's 1954 HOY Honors -- deserved, or really in honor of 1953?

[carbonite]

FROM FORUM ADMIN: THIS WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED DURING CONVERSATION IN ANOTHER THREAD AND SPLIT TO MAKE NEW THREADS TO START THIS FORUM.


1954?

[redhead]

[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810602#msg810602 date=1253726858]
[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg810587#msg810587 date=1253726137]
[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810532#msg810532 date=1253721427]
[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg810529#msg810529 date=1253721026]I think you misunderstood...the horse was not seven for seven ...it was seven for 8 losing in the BC Classic to the 5 for 5 horse...

So head to head your horse with more starts...8 lost to an undefeated horse with only 5 starts...

Do you still pick the horse with more starts?

Again, my point being that you cannot just make blanket statements that you go with the more starts...and wins...

Quality counts not just quantity...the quality of the competition...etc.
[/quote]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing about. Didn't I ask "Who has Zenyatta beaten this year?" Doesn't that indicate to you that I consider quality too?

So, for the record, I consider starts, wins, quality of competition, times and time records, weight carried and given, versatility, and more.
[/quote]

And again, my point is that if you indeed consider all that...then you cannot have an absolute rule of demanding more than 5 starts when choosing your HOTY selection...because weighing the other factors you could often easily come to the conclusion that there are better, more qualified horses with less starts who deserve to win... [/quote]

Actually, I can. Number of starts weighs more heavily than many others on that list, like weight carried and giving.
[/quote]

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810636#msg810636 date=1253729319]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.
[/quote]

Was High Gun just not that good of a horse, despite winning the Belmont, JCGC (at 2 miles), Manhattan H (turf at 1 1/2 miles), Sysonby Mile, Peter Pan, and Dwyer?
[/quote]

No, I think it was a sentimental thing...like a career award...he really only ran in one great race that year...An allowance and the Oneonta Handicap against only two other horses...

I did see that he shared HOTY honors with One Count in 1952...to answer the HOTY tie question raised before...

[redhead]

[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810636#msg810636 date=1253729319]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.[/quote]

Was High Gun just not that good of a horse, despite winning the Belmont, JCGC (at 2 miles), Manhattan H (turf at 1 1/2 miles), Sysonby Mile, Peter Pan, and Dwyer?[/quote]

Good question. Would take a lot more research to it justice.

At a glance ... High Gun's times for the Peter Pan, Belmont, and Jockey Club Gold Cup weren't fast, compared with previous winners (Native Dancer had won the Belmont more than 2 seconds faster). I think the voters felt that since the older (Handicap Triple Crown winner) Tom Fool beat Native Dancer for Horse of the Year in 1953, the next year should be the Dancer's turn. His dramatic Met Mile victory in record time with 130 pounds up gave them a justification, because High Gun -- despite his good wins -- didn't do anything brilliant.

[Slewbopper]

[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.
[/quote]

ND's '54 HOY was a reward for his outstanding '53 campaign. Tom Fool might have been just a little better in '53 based on his older horse status.

[carbonite]

[quote author=Slewbopper link=topic=37091.msg811024#msg811024 date=1253779307]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.
[/quote]

ND's '54 HOY was a reward for his outstanding '53 campaign. Tom Fool might have been just a little better in '53 based on his older horse status.
[/quote]
It was a reward for being the most impressive horse on the racetrack in 1954. Many people, not just a few, thought that the 1954 Met Mile was not only the crowning race of his career, but one of the greatest races of all time.

It's kind of comic how people want to reverse direction and dismiss an established example of an obviously great horse winning Horse of the Year from a brief campaign for no reason other than that it doesn't fit their preconception. The ONLY horse trotted out as a challenger to Native Dancer in the posts that followed his introduction into the thread was High Gun. High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun. He is nowhere in the Blood Horse top 100, nor anyone else's top 100; Native Dancer is in everyone's top ten. In 1954, he was clearly at the end of his road, but he was also clearly THE dominant horse in the country and everyone knew it.

[img width=400 height=527]http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1954/1101540531_400.jpg[/img]

[Rick1323]

In an era of many great horses, THAT was a race horse.

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg811064#msg811064 date=1253799119]
[quote author=Slewbopper link=topic=37091.msg811024#msg811024 date=1253779307]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.
[/quote]

ND's '54 HOY was a reward for his outstanding '53 campaign. Tom Fool might have been just a little better in '53 based on his older horse status.
[/quote]
It was a reward for being the most impressive horse on the racetrack in 1954. Many people, not just a few, thought that the 1954 Met Mile was not only the crowning race of his career, but one of the greatest races of all time.

It's kind of comic how people want to reverse direction and dismiss an established example of an obviously great horse winning Horse of the Year from a brief campaign for no reason other than that it doesn't fit their preconception. The ONLY horse trotted out as a challenger to Native Dancer in the posts that followed his introduction into the thread was High Gun. High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun. He is nowhere in the Blood Horse top 100, nor anyone else's top 100; Native Dancer is in everyone's top ten. In 1954, he was clearly at the end of his road, but he was also clearly THE dominant horse in the country and everyone knew it.

[img width=400 height=527]http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/1954/1101540531_400.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I've been to Sagamore several times...to imagine it in its heyday...with the Grey Ghost...

I have no problem giving HOTY honors to a horse that has only run three races...because there have to be many factors weighed...not just a few...

But, on the other hand...while the performance in this signature race could have been one for the ages...we would have here a horse getting the trophy for basically a one race performance...which would make Sea The Stars and Zenyatta more than eligible to take the trophy from Rachel should they turn in spectacular performances...in an upcoming race...

Just trying to keep everyone honest... :wink:

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811018#msg811018 date=1253771288]
[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810636#msg810636 date=1253729319]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg810623#msg810623 date=1253728473]
[quote author=carbonite link=topic=37091.msg810614#msg810614 date=1253727835]
1954?[/quote]

That was a bit of a gift to Native Dancer, wasn't it -- only three starts, though his Met Mile was superb. But the voters must have believed, with reason, that he was the best horse racing in the U.S. that year.[/quote]

Was High Gun just not that good of a horse, despite winning the Belmont, JCGC (at 2 miles), Manhattan H (turf at 1 1/2 miles), Sysonby Mile, Peter Pan, and Dwyer?[/quote]

Good question. Would take a lot more research to it justice.

At a glance ... High Gun's times for the Peter Pan, Belmont, and Jockey Club Gold Cup weren't fast, compared with previous winners (Native Dancer had won the Belmont more than 2 seconds faster). I think the voters felt that since the older (Handicap Triple Crown winner) Tom Fool beat Native Dancer for Horse of the Year in 1953, the next year should be the Dancer's turn. His dramatic Met Mile victory in record time with 130 pounds up gave them a justification, because High Gun -- despite his good wins -- didn't do anything brilliant.
[/quote]

Well, Native Dancer did tie with One Count for 1952 HOTY honors...

[redhead]

[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg811071#msg811071 date=1253799918]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811018#msg811018 date=1253771288]
[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810636#msg810636 date=1253729319]
Was High Gun just not that good of a horse, despite winning the Belmont, JCGC (at 2 miles), Manhattan H (turf at 1 1/2 miles), Sysonby Mile, Peter Pan, and Dwyer?[/quote]

Good question. Would take a lot more research to it justice.

At a glance ... High Gun's times for the Peter Pan, Belmont, and Jockey Club Gold Cup weren't fast, compared with previous winners (Native Dancer had won the Belmont more than 2 seconds faster). I think the voters felt that since the older (Handicap Triple Crown winner) Tom Fool beat Native Dancer for Horse of the Year in 1953, the next year should be the Dancer's turn. His dramatic Met Mile victory in record time with 130 pounds up gave them a justification, because High Gun -- despite his good wins -- didn't do anything brilliant.[/quote]

Well, Native Dancer did tie with One Count for 1952 HOTY honors...[/quote]

Which was a brilliant achievement for a 2-year-old, but still a tie. Then, Native Dancer stepped up as a multiple classic winner in '53, surpassing most of his 2-year-old achievements, but missed Horse of the Year because Tom Fool pulled off an unbeaten 10-start season and the incredibly rare Handicap Triple Crown. So, despite his immense class, Native Dancer had never stood alone at the very top of year-end honors. I think that made a difference in the '54 voting.

Carbonite said it well with, "High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun." :grin:

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811099#msg811099 date=1253803854]
[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg811071#msg811071 date=1253799918]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811018#msg811018 date=1253771288]
[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg810636#msg810636 date=1253729319]
Was High Gun just not that good of a horse, despite winning the Belmont, JCGC (at 2 miles), Manhattan H (turf at 1 1/2 miles), Sysonby Mile, Peter Pan, and Dwyer?[/quote]

Good question. Would take a lot more research to it justice.

At a glance ... High Gun's times for the Peter Pan, Belmont, and Jockey Club Gold Cup weren't fast, compared with previous winners (Native Dancer had won the Belmont more than 2 seconds faster). I think the voters felt that since the older (Handicap Triple Crown winner) Tom Fool beat Native Dancer for Horse of the Year in 1953, the next year should be the Dancer's turn. His dramatic Met Mile victory in record time with 130 pounds up gave them a justification, because High Gun -- despite his good wins -- didn't do anything brilliant.[/quote]

Well, Native Dancer did tie with One Count for 1952 HOTY honors...[/quote]

Which was a brilliant achievement for a 2-year-old, but still a tie. Then, Native Dancer stepped up as a multiple classic winner in '53, surpassing most of his 2-year-old achievements, but missed Horse of the Year because Tom Fool pulled off an unbeaten 10-start season and the incredibly rare Handicap Triple Crown. So, despite his immense class, Native Dancer had never stood alone at the very top of year-end honors. I think that made a difference in the '54 voting.

Carbonite said it well with, "High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun." :grin:
[/quote]

Indeed, though I did think that the point made by another poster...that while High Gun has never been criticized here, he has also never received accolades as one of the best of the best either...by sports writers...

[redhead]

[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg811117#msg811117 date=1253805440]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811099#msg811099 date=1253803854]
Carbonite said it well with, "High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun." :grin:
[/quote]

Indeed, though I did think that the point made by another poster...that while High Gun has never been criticized here, he has also never received accolades as one of the best of the best either...by sports writers...[/quote]

It's true that High Gun probably would be better remembered if he'd been voted Horse of the Year. But a number of horses who weren't HOTY are remembered because they did something especially exciting. RE: 1954 -- People admired Native Dancer's Met Mile for years afterward. How often have any of High Gun's races come up in "great moments I saw or heard about" discussions? Nothing kept any of them foremost in racing writers' and fans' minds.

Zenyatta and Rachel, on the other hand, both have given performances that stick in peoples' minds.

[Miss Woodford]

Here's High Gun's race record:

Race Record in NA/US
1953 3 2 0 0 $7,475
1954 14 6 3 4 $314,550
1955 7 3 2 0 $164,000
Totals 24 11 5 4 $486,025 (SSI=55.48)
1954 Champion Three Year Old Colt
1955 Champion Handicap Horse
1954 1st Belmont S $100,000
1954 1st Jockey Club Gold Cup $75,000
1954 1st Dwyer S $50,000
1954 1st Manhattan H $30,000
1954 1st Peter Pan H $25,000
1954 1st Sysonby Mile $25,000
1955 1st Sysonby S $100,000
1955 1st Brooklyn H $50,000
1955 1st Metropolitan H $30,000
1954 2nd American Derby $100,000
1955 2nd Monmouth H $75,000
1955 2nd Suburban H $75,000
1954 3rd Wood Memorial S $100,000
1954 3rd Arlington Classic $100,000
1954 3rd Jersey S $50,000
1954 3rd Withers S $25,000

So he was a good horse in an era of great horses. It is worth noting, however, that in 1955 he narrowly missed the Handicap Triple, and in the Sysonby he beat Nashua.

A couple other good horses from that year, who would be lauded if they were around today but are historical afterthoughts:

Helioscope(who actually beat High Gun each time they met, and also beat elders at age 3)

Race Record in NA/US
1953 1 1 0 0 $2,000
1954 14 9 3 0 $190,925
1955 10 6 0 2 $225,250
Totals 25 16 3 2 $418,275 (SSI=46.99)
1954 1st Pimlico Special $50,000
1954 1st Trenton H $50,000
1954 1st Olympic H *nt $25,000
1954 1st Benjamin Franklin H $25,000
1954 1st Select H (2 div) $20,000
1955 1st Suburban H $75,000
1955 1st Monmouth H $75,000
1955 1st Massachusetts H *nt $50,000
1955 1st Valley Forge H *nt $25,000
1955 1st Salvator Mile *nt $15,000
1955 1st Southern Maryland H *nt $15,000
1954 2nd Arlington Classic $100,000
1954 2nd Roamer H $50,000
1955 3rd Washington Park H $100,000
1955 3rd John B. Campbell Memorial H $75,000
1954 Ntr Atlantic City 9.00f 1 47 3
1955 Ntr Bowie 7.00f 1 22 3
1955 Ntr Garden State 8.32f 1 40 3
1955 Ntr Monmouth 8.00f 1 36 4
1955 Ntr Suffolk Downs 10.00f 2 01 0

Fisherman

Race Record in NA/US
1953 12 6 1 0 $123,075
1954 15 5 7 1 $207,525
1955 4 1 1 0 $35,450
1956 14 1 3 3 $70,000
Totals 45 13 12 4 $436,050 (SSI=26.30)
1953 1st East View S $35,000
1953 1st Champagne S $25,000
1953 1st Cowdin S $20,000
1953 1st Great American S $15,000
1954 1st Washington, D. C., International $65,000
1954 1st Gotham S $30,000
1954 1st Lawrence Realization $25,000
1954 1st Travers S $25,000
1954 1st American Legion H $10,000
1955 1st Excelsior H $25,000
1956 1st John R. Macomber Memorial H $25,000
1954 2nd Belmont S $100,000
1954 2nd Wood Memorial S $100,000
1954 2nd Jockey Club Gold Cup $75,000
1954 2nd Whitney H $50,000
1954 2nd Peter Pan H $25,000
1954 2nd Jerome H $20,000
1954 2nd Experimental Free H $20,000
1955 2nd John B. Campbell Memorial H $75,000
1956 2nd Camden H $30,000
1956 2nd Stymie H $25,000
1954 3rd Pimlico Special $50,000
1956 3rd John B. Campbell Memorial H $100,000
1956 3rd Grey Lag H $50,000
1956 3rd Excelsior H $25,000
1956 Sent To France

Social Outcast

ce Record in NA/US
1952 10 5 0 0 $29,000
1953 9 0 1 1 $11,750
1954 12 5 2 2 $192,675
1955 22 8 3 3 $390,775
1956 5 0 3 0 $44,000
Totals 58 18 9 6 $668,300 (SSI=36.59)
1952 1st Remsen H $20,000
1954 1st Gallant Fox H $75,000
1954 1st Rhode Island Special *nt $50,000
1954 1st Whitney H $50,000
1954 1st Narragansett Special $35,000
1955 1st Sunset H *nt $100,000
1955 1st John B. Campbell Memorial H *nt $75,000
1955 1st Lincoln Special H $50,000
1955 1st McLennan H $50,000
1955 1st Trenton H *nt $50,000
1955 1st Saratoga H $50,000
1955 1st Manhattan H $30,000
1954 2nd Merchants' And Citizens' H $25,000
1954 2nd Saratoga H $25,000
1955 2nd Carter H $50,000
1955 2nd Massachusetts H $50,000
1955 2nd Palm Beach H $15,000
1956 2nd Widener H $100,000
1956 2nd McLennan H $50,000
1956 2nd Palm Beach H $20,000
1953 3rd San Felipe H $25,000
1954 3rd Michigan Mile $50,000
1954 3rd Trenton H $50,000
1955 3rd Widener H $100,000
1955 3rd Washington, D. C. International $65,000
1955 3rd Pimlico Special $50,000
1954 Ntr Lincoln Downs 10.00f 2 06 1
1955 Ntr Bowie 8.50f 1 42 3
1955 Ntr Garden State 10.00f 2 01 0
1955 Ntr Hollywood Park 13.00f 2 40 3

Joe Jones(sired by Stymie!He also beat a bunch of champions in his long career)

Race Record in NA/US
1953 31 5 6 6 $35,937
1954 27 7 2 8 $120,375
1955 13 2 4 1 $73,900
1956 20 6 4 2 $131,925
1957 6 0 2 1 $4,500
1958 28 4 10 6 $23,515
1959 30 7 8 6 $25,550
1960 20 3 4 2 $7,865
Totals 175 34 40 32 $423,567 (SSI=12.45)
1953 1st Fort McHenry H (1 div) $15,000
1954 1st John B. Campbell Memorial H $25,000
1954 1st Bay Shore H $25,000
1954 1st Sport Page H $25,000
1954 1st Vosburgh H $20,000
1955 1st Bowie H $25,000
1956 1st Lincoln Special $50,000
1956 1st Bowie H $25,000
1956 1st Sport Page H $20,000
1956 1st Southern Maryland H $15,000
1954 2nd Woodward S $50,000
1955 2nd Santa Anita H $100,000
1955 2nd Santa Barbara H $25,000
1955 2nd Excelsior H $25,000
1955 2nd Valley Forge H $25,000
1956 2nd John B. Campbell Memorial H $100,000
1956 2nd Excelsior H $25,000
1956 2nd Vosburgh H $20,000
1953 3rd Butler H $50,000
1953 3rd Sport Page H $20,000
1954 3rd Malibu Sequet S $25,000
1954 3rd Quaker City H $25,000
1954 3rd San Fernando S $25,000
1954 3rd Christopher J. Fitzgerald H $20,000
1955 3rd Metropolitan H $30,000
1956 3rd Queens County H $25,000
1956 3rd Valley Forge H $25,000
1954 Ntr Bowie 9.00f 1 50 4
1954 Ntr Santa Anita 8.00f 1 35 0
1955 Ntr Santa Anita 8.00f 1 34 4


Imbros

Race Record in NA/US
1953 12 6 1 2 $78,300
1954 20 8 4 5 $242,000
1955 4 1 2 0 $20,250
Totals 36 15 7 7 $340,550 (SSI=27.38)
1953 1st Debonair S $25,000
1953 1st Will Rogers S $25,000
1953 1st El Dorado H $20,000
1953 1st San Jose H $10,000
1954 1st Californian S *ntew $100,000
1954 1st William P. Kyne H *nt $80,900
1954 1st Malibu Sequet S *nw $25,000
1954 1st Palos Verdes H *et $20,000
1954 1st Governor Goodwin J. Knight H *nt $20,000
1954 1st Lincoln's Birthday H $20,000
1954 1st Pacific H $10,000
1954 2nd Santa Anita H $100,000
1954 2nd Hollywood Premiere H $25,000
1954 2nd Lakes And Flowers H $25,000
1955 2nd San Antonio H $50,000
1955 2nd San Carlos H $20,000
1953 3rd Westerner S $100,000
1953 3rd Cinema H $25,000
1954 3rd American H $50,000
1954 3rd Argonaut H $25,000
1954 3rd Golden Gate Mile H $15,000
1954 Etr Santa Anita 6.00f 1 09 0
1954 Ntewr Hollywood Park 8.50f 1 41 0
1954 Ntnwr Santa Anita 7.00f 1 20 3
1954 Ntr Bay Meadows 8.00f 1 35 2
1954 Ntr Bay Meadows 9.00f 1 48 3

And how could I forget Determine! He had a hell of a season in 1954!

Race Record in NA/US
1953 14 4 1 5 $26,435
1954 15 10 3 2 $328,700
1955 15 4 3 2 $218,225
Totals 44 18 7 9 $573,360 (SSI=35.87)
1953 1st San Francisan H $15,000
1953 1st Robert O'Brien H $10,000
1954 1st Kentucky Derby $100,000
1954 1st Santa Anita Derby $100,000
1954 1st San Felipe H $25,000
1954 1st Bay Meadows Derby $25,000
1954 1st Debonair S $25,000
1954 1st Golden Gate H $25,000
1954 1st San Gabriel S $20,000
1954 1st San Jose H $15,000
1954 1st Oakland H $15,000
1954 1st Peter Clark H $15,000
1955 1st Santa Anita Maturity $100,000
1955 1st Golden Gate Mile H $41,600
1955 1st Inglewood H $25,000
1955 1st Malibu Sequet S (JAN) $25,000
1954 2nd Californian S $100,000
1954 2nd San Vicente S $20,000
1954 2nd Derby Trial $10,000
1955 2nd Californian S $100,000
1955 2nd San Juan Capistrano H $100,000
1955 2nd Golden Gate H $43,950
1953 3rd Salinas H $10,000
1954 3rd Westerner S $50,000
1954 3rd Pacific H $10,000
1955 3rd Hollywood Gold Cup H $100,000

My point is, Native Dancer definitely wasn't given the award for his performance that year. He was given it for his performance in 1953. There certainly wasn't a lack of HOTY candidates back then.

[carbonite]

[quote author=Miss Woodford link=topic=37091.msg811306#msg811306 date=1253824241]
High Gun

So he was a good horse in an era of great horses. It is worth noting, however, that in 1955 he narrowly missed the Handicap Triple, and in the Sysonby he beat Nashua.

A couple other good horses from that year, who would be lauded if they were around today but are historical afterthoughts:


My point is, Native Dancer definitely wasn't given the award for his performance that year. He was given it for his performance in 1953. There certainly wasn't a lack of HOTY candidates back then.
[/quote]
Given your observations, how do you possibly justify your conclusion? You identify High Gun--the only qualified competition--as "a good horse in an era of great horses." You then proceed to identify several other "good horses," who weren't in the race. And then, perversely, you turn right around and argue against yourself in saying that Native Dancer wasn't given the award for his performance that year. In fact, he was the undeniably great horse performing that year, he was unbeaten, and he turned in a pair great performances, one of which some people consider one of the greatest races of the twentieth century. What other race compares to his Met Mile win? What other horse blew away his opposition while carrying 137 and conceding 18 lbs? Just to get to the point, who on the list you provide do you think was robbed by the Horse of the Year vote that year? And how do you explain the fact that NOBODY has ever pointed to 1954 as a year the voters got it wrong? Not then, not now. Until, I guess, today.

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811161#msg811161 date=1253808766]
[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=37091.msg811117#msg811117 date=1253805440]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811099#msg811099 date=1253803854]
Carbonite said it well with, "High Gun was a really nice horse. NOBODY thought he was more deserving of Horse of the Year. There has never in the entire argumentative history of this board been a single poster who has ever extolled the virtues of High Gun." :grin:
[/quote]

Indeed, though I did think that the point made by another poster...that while High Gun has never been criticized here, he has also never received accolades as one of the best of the best either...by sports writers...[/quote]

It's true that High Gun probably would be better remembered if he'd been voted Horse of the Year. But a number of horses who weren't HOTY are remembered because they did something especially exciting. RE: 1954 -- People admired Native Dancer's Met Mile for years afterward. How often have any of High Gun's races come up in "great moments I saw or heard about" discussions? Nothing kept any of them foremost in racing writers' and fans' minds.

Zenyatta and Rachel, on the other hand, both have given performances that stick in peoples' minds.
[/quote]

Exactly...he was a good horse...he achieved a lot...much more than the ordinary race horse...but he is not on the level of the "great" horses IMHO...

Of course, that being said, there are likely many horse of the year that do not fit in that category either...

[redhead]

[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg811165#msg811165 date=1253809720]
[quote author=redhead link=topic=37091.msg811161#msg811161 date=1253808766]
It's true that High Gun probably would be better remembered if he'd been voted Horse of the Year. But a number of horses who weren't HOTY are remembered because they did something especially exciting. RE: 1954 -- People admired Native Dancer's Met Mile for years afterward. How often have any of High Gun's races come up in "great moments I saw or heard about" discussions? Nothing kept any of them foremost in racing writers' and fans' minds.

Zenyatta and Rachel, on the other hand, both have given performances that stick in peoples' minds.[/quote]

We'll have to see if they're still in people's minds 60 years from now, though.[/quote]

Of course that remains to be seen. But were people talking about High Gun as a stand-out even 5, 10, or 20 years later? No. Compared with Tom Fool, Native Dancer, Swaps, Nashua, Round Table, Sword Dancer, and some other stars of his decade (Noor and Tim Tam, for example), he didn't stand out. More below.

[quote author=Song of Solomon link=topic=37091.msg811165#msg811165 date=1253809720]
Obviously, Native Diver isn't an unknown, but I'm not sure that he's as known as he should be, and I think there's a lot of horses who the same could be said of. There's a lot of horses who have been named champ who I know nothing at all about.

I do find it interesting that High Gun may not have been too well-thought of at the time, though. Would we think similarly today of a horse, at 3, who defeated his elders twice, won top races going from 1 mile to 2 miles, on both dirt and turf? And add a TC race in there for good measure? I don't know that I'd call that horse a great, necessarily, but he obviously was no slouch.[/quote]

So much depends on the context. In the '54 Jockey Club Gold Cup, another 3-year-old, Fisherman (who would later win the Washington D.C. International on turf) ran second to High Gun and an older horse named Bicarb ran third. The winning time was not fast. Apparently not one of the Gold Cup's better renewals. High Gun's Belmont Stakes win, by a neck over Fisherman, also was not quick (2:30 4/5 on a fast track, compared with Native Dancer's 2:28 3/5 the previous year).

Also, according to DRF pps, the Manhattan Handicap was still run on dirt, not turf, in 1954. High Gun was a dirt horse who did most of his winning at Belmont Park and also won two stakes at Aqueduct.

High Gun's 1954 starts:

2nd 1 1/16 Allowance 4000
3rd 1 1/8 Wood Memorial 122k
3rd 1 mile Withers 35k
4th 6 fur. Del. Valley (Div. 2) 35k
3rd 1 1/8 Jersey 64k
1st 1 1/8 Peter Pan 36k
1st 1 1/2 Belmont Stakes 125k
1st 1 1/4 Dwyer 57k
3rd 1 mile Arlington Classic 161k
2nd 1 1/8 American Derby 115k
1st 1 mile Sysonby 28k
1st 1 1/2 Manhattan Handicap 35k
1st 2 miles Jockey Club Gold Cup 82k

High Gun lost the Arlington Classic and the American Derby to a horse called Errard King; he got a jockey change from Eric Guerin to Willie Shoemaker for the American Derby but still lost by 2 lengths, under equal weights, despite chart note "gaining steadily."

[ManOTaz]

I think his honors were deserved.

I think he was the best horse that ran in 1954 and his performance in the Met Mile was one of the best races run in American racing history.

I know he had a thin resume...but I do not believe that there was a better horse that ran that year.

High Gun was impressive in his three year old effort. He arguably deserved it as well. But I do not believe that he was a better horse than Native Dancer...

I do argue that the HOTY honors should be given for the best overall performance and not for one race...

But I also believe the honors should go to the best horse of the year as well...and usually that goes to the horses with the strongest performance...

The Met Mile showed the strength of Native Dancer's performance...and ability that year...so I cannot agree that the award was given for the past year's performance...

High Gun was a deserving winner if that is what the voter's determined...but I believe Native Dancer was just as deserving...