How to improve the TB breed (Soundness)

[GoldenGull]

As the saying goes....you can always sell a race horse, but you can't always race a sale horse.

So, if you are a smart breeder and you breed to sell, you certainly try to pick what will be commercially appealing but you always pick stallions that complement and improve your mares.

If any little thing goes wrong on the way to the sale, and about a million things try to wreck the horse before you get there, and you have to race the horse to sell it then it certainly is in your best interest to breed a runner.

I think it is a fallacy that great conformation equals great performance and soundness. Racehorses get sore not because they are poorly conformed but because of their job description. They are professional athletes regularly pushed to their maximum level and it results in wear and tear.

I'd always heard the blather about the Warmblood breeding program and how superior it was to our way and then I went to work for some folks who had Grand Prix jumpers. These are folks with lots of disposable income who can afford to buy nice horses, and lets just say that from what I saw first hand the Warmblood folks breed a lot of crappy horses that are poorly conformed and they end up in the US jumping over small fences, just like out cheap claimers.

Personally, if I am going to get a lecture on how to improve the breed, it would mean more if it came from someone who actually bred TB's and didn't just read about it in a book or on a message board. I doubt someone with real experience would say some of the things that were said here or make those claims because the reality of breeding is much different than the theory of breeding a better horse.

[Insane Crazy]

I think it is a fallacy that great conformation equals great performance and soundness. Racehorses get sore not because they are poorly conformed but because of their job description. They are professional athletes regularly pushed to their maximum level and it results in wear and tear.

I'd always heard the blather about the Warmblood breeding program and how superior it was to our way

Never said the Warmblood way was how the TBs should do it. Germany has a system somewhat reminiscent of it but time and time again I've heard their horses just aren't as fast as ours. I never said conformation always = performance, we've all seen that in the Seabiscuits, the John Henries, hell even the Cigars and Big Browns with their bad feet. I would say conformation helps with durability. I was just saying that in those programs, the top horses have both. If he's missing one, you often geld. That just doesn't happen in racing, but in an perfect world that would lead to an arena where well-built is the norm, and then performance dictates breeding.

But for racing I'm not sure it would work. There are too many mystery elements that make up a good racehorse, and too many mystery elements in the shed. Mr. Prospector was an "okay" little racehorse, who isn't particularly special to look at. In a warmblood ring he'd be a very cute gelding. In racing, he's one of the most influential sires to date. Secretariat, almost picture perfect and one of the greatest racehorses of all time, wasn't a godsend at stud. Doesn't make sense to me either.

Was just mentioning another system where there are still very nice animals who are geldings, which doesn't happen much in racing. We want horses who can scoot. Sometimes, commercially or otherwise, that is at risk of the most efficient build we can manage or durability. Pokeyman laid out the whole system at work that keeps racehorses unsound, so it's hardly *just* breeding or build. That's, of course, just one factor.

[GotaDunQH]

Tbird,

We will have to agree to disagree! Unfortunately, the tide has turned and the majority of breeders breed for the commercial market. You need to be stupid or insane to breed to race (unfortunately, we are both)!

I know of only ONE other breeder that breeds to race in my region. And, as a members of 3 state breeding associations I know a lot of breeders!

Case in point.....look at what stallions NY brought to the state. Almost all of them are unproven commercial sires. Go ahead. Check the list of new stallions in NY. Some of these stallions made less than 5 starts.

The only somewhat new breed to race stallion is Alphabet Soup and nobody will breed to him because he is not commercial.

I was very sad to see Repent get the boot by NY breeders. Do you know why..."not commercial". That's what I was told by everyone surrounding the horse. It is shocking how few breeders used the horse.

So, I am not getting on my soapbox. But, I am sharing a strong OPINION from someone who has been involved in the game for awhile...I respect everyone's opinion and everyone is free to express theirs. I am a bit shocked at your personal attack. Thought you were above that...

Hope people can stay on topic and discuss why the modern TB seems to be unsound while being civil and respectful. Why does almost every single thread on this forum end with attacks? Seriously. That's why I took a break from posting.

I don't know you Pokey because I am pretty new here, but after reading your posts on this thread, I have to applaud you for sticking with YOUR breeding program and holding it to a high standard. Breed for quality not quantity. And when I hear the word "commercial", I think of quantity over quality....and that's not the way it should be. I mean....look at McDonald's, very commercial, quantity over quality because their food sucks! Granted there IS "commercial" breeding where there is an equal balance of both, but then there is a lot of commercial breeding that is out of balance...and it's not just in the race horse biz. When a person breeds two animals, that person's name is attached to that resulting foal.

Anyway, I like your posts Pokey and I'm glad there are some breeders out there that think like you do.

[GotaDunQH]

As the saying goes....you can always sell a race horse, but you can't always race a sale horse.

So, if you are a smart breeder and you breed to sell, you certainly try to pick what will be commercially appealing but you always pick stallions that complement and improve your mares.

If any little thing goes wrong on the way to the sale, and about a million things try to wreck the horse before you get there, and you have to race the horse to sell it then it certainly is in your best interest to breed a runner.

I think it is a fallacy that great conformation equals great performance and soundness. Racehorses get sore not because they are poorly conformed but because of their job description. They are professional athletes regularly pushed to their maximum level and it results in wear and tear.

I'd always heard the blather about the Warmblood breeding program and how superior it was to our way and then I went to work for some folks who had Grand Prix jumpers. These are folks with lots of disposable income who can afford to buy nice horses, and lets just say that from what I saw first hand the Warmblood folks breed a lot of crappy horses that are poorly conformed and they end up in the US jumping over small fences, just like out cheap claimers.

Personally, if I am going to get a lecture on how to improve the breed, it would mean more if it came from someone who actually bred TB's and didn't just read about it in a book or on a message board. I doubt someone with real experience would say some of the things that were said here or make those claims because the reality of breeding is much different than the theory of breeding a better horse.

And I agree with this to a point, but if you start out with a poorly conformed horse....adding the athletics they are required to perform ONTO that, it's a recipe for an unsound horse down the road. I've seen a ton of crooked leg sonofabitches in my day perform....but for not as long at a high level as a better conformed horse. There is no perfectly conformed horse out there, so you have to deal with and flaws that you can accept, and stay away from flaws that are going to screw you (and the horse) in the end. It's biomechanics, the better the form to function is....the more use you will get with proper maintenance.

[pokeyman]

Hot pedigrees are "hot" because the commercial market says they will be before the young stallion even has one foal that steps on the track. Another term you may hear is ..."buzz" over an unproven stallion.

I choose to breed a certain way. That is my opinion on breeding. Does it bother me when these commercial horses can't race or are unsound and there is no market for them as a riding horses because they have breathing problems, bad feet, poor metabolics, etc as none of the above were considered in the breeding? Yes.

If people do not have enough money to race a horse than they should not be breeding a horse at all. Breeding to sell can backfire because if that breeder can't afford to race and the foal doesn't sell than what will they do with the foal? I have seen what happens and it's NOT pretty. But, if you breed to race, than chances are that horse will find a home somewhere doing something.

You can also breed to sell without "selling out". These breeders breed to sell but are still trying to breed racehorses. They might not hit the grand slam but can get some doubles and triples. Bottom line is horse is still bred to be a racehorse.

Also, reality check....breeding thoroughbreds and racing will hardly ever generate a profit! You don't get involved in this game for the money...that's for sure!

But, please...before five thousand people continue to harp on breeding commercial horses don't think this is the ONLY reason that racehorses are unsound. It's just one piece of the puzzle. I have already said 3 times that I feel training methods are the single biggest factor in the breakdown of our racehorses.

This will be my last post on commercial breeding but thanks for the discussion! Everyone made some really great points and contributions!!

[mdh888]

And I agree with this to a point, but if you start out with a poorly conformed horse....adding the athletics they are required to perform ONTO that, it's a recipe for an unsound horse down the road. I've seen a ton of crooked leg sonofabitches in my day perform....but for not as long at a high level as a better conformed horse. There is no perfectly conformed horse out there, so you have to deal with and flaws that you can accept, and stay away from flaws that are going to screw you (and the horse) in the end. It's biomechanics, the better the form to function is....the more use you will get with proper maintenance.

Ditto, Jennifer. You are, as usual, right on with your knowledge of conformation. I still believe that form should follow function and that proper structure = potential soundness. I used the word potential to weed out unsoundness due to accidents. I'm not as worried about superficialities, such as attractive head, etc, as I am with leg structure.

Every post in this thread has some merit. I know how hard it is to breed really good horses. I also know that I never personally set out to breed a dud. But I'll tell you this after retiring my first QH mare and raising 3 foals from 3 different studs, I realized that she was not a good producer. I actually took her out of my broodmare band, put her back in training and sold her to a 10 year old girl who wanted to start showing. It was a win-win situation as they kept her until she died.

[Past the Grandstand]

This post no longer exists.

[TBird]

Well, this is how I see it for the most part: http://pastthegrandstand.blogspot.co...er-horses.html
Enjoy!

I think it's shortsighted to blame a single horse born 100 years ago for the (perceived) unsoundness in TBs.

[Shammy Davis]

I read this some years back before the "speed gene" discussion got frenzied. Building the better racehorse has been and will be a discussion for the ages. IMO, it is more likely that what we are seeing in the current TB is a result of a multitude of factors, some genetic, some environmental, and some our imagination.

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Horsemap/Workshop/NYT58a.htm

[Shammy Davis]

http://www.millridgefarm.com/pdf/SP%...col)%20(4).pdf

[TapitsGal]

I think it's shortsighted to blame a single horse born 100 years ago for the (perceived) unsoundness in TBs.

I agree with this.

[Bast]

One hundred years ago, John Madden said that the soundness of American TBs needed to be improved.

What has happened in the last 40 years to change American (and Canadian) racing:

1-liberalized "medication" rules
2-a trend towards doing very little work with a horse (name another sport where the competitors stand still 23 hours a day, every day)
3-the large homebred operations have largely vanished
4-there has been a trend towards breeding a taller, heavier horse
5-racing at the top for 4 year old and older horses no longer has the status or the purse structure to motivate keeping a horse in training
6-there is a lot of emphasis upon breeding "catalogue page to catalogue page" without regard for the physical types of the sire and dam

What hasn't changed:

1-a properly trained horse will tend to make more starts at a higher level than one hardly trained.
2-horsemanship matters

Don't blame Phalaris. He was foaled 99 years ago, and appears in pedigrees typically about the same percentage as Teddy and about HALF the percentage as St Simon.

Just for fun, pulling together the Phalaris Disease Theories:

http://racehorse.genomex.net/html/phalaris__stallion_of_doom_.html

[Bast]

Inbreeding is another reason why horse have weaker bones. The inbreeding of horses like Native Dancer, Raise and Native and Bold Ruler, who all carried the weak bone gene, has made TB's weaker. Horses with less inbreeding are sounder and do better at racing.

Please provide links or sources to back up the assertion about inbreeding. If you have ever looked at 18th and 19th century TB pedigrees, many show a great deal of inbreeding. Marcel Boussac bred some classic winners in France in the 20th inbreeding to a greater degree than most would consider. This mare won the Arc de Triomphe for him as a 3 y o:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/coronation

I have never come across a scientific reference to the "weak bone gene". Bone strength has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a matter of exercise and nutrition. If you have other information, please provide a link or reference.

[Shammy Davis]

I've always wondered what the effect of being in a stall 23hrs a day has on soundness. I think I read an article or commentary on this at some point. Horses are meant to be mobile at all times. I understand owners are trying to protect their horses by keeping them stalled, but at what cost? I would love to see a trainer that keeps his horses in a pasture at least part time. European trainers, at least some in Ireland, train over natural terrain and swear by it that it keeps them sounder.

http://www.ker.com/library/advances/225.pdf

Also . . . as far as many bone disorders go, the scientific community is still researching and debating genetic involvement.

During the 1990s, scientists identified genes responsible for three
important genetic horse diseases and developed tests, which are now
commercially available. Breeders and prospective buyers can now test animals
for severe combined immunodeficiency disease in Arabian horses, hyperkalemic
periodic paralysis in Quarter Horses, and lethal white syndrome in Paint
Horses. Scientists are currently using newly identified markers to seek out
mutant genes that cause other autosomal recessive diseases.

Other researchers are working on identifying the genes for cerebellar hypoplasia, megacolon disease,
epitheliogenesis imperfecta, muscle diseases such as tying-up syndrome, and
bone disorders.

And genes for basic traits such as coat color are also getting attention. The gene for palomino
color, for example, has been mapped. "Breeders want to know if a stallion is a
homozygote for a particular trait," Dr. Bailey said.

Progress with the horse genome has been spurred on by genetic research in other animals. The size of
the genome as well as the number, nature, and sequence of genes is strongly
conserved among vertebrate species. "Genetic research is moving very fast," Dr.
White said. "Now that the human genome and the mouse genome have been fully
mapped, it's possible to look at genes in other animals, and using the template
from the human or mouse, find similar genes."

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jul02/020701f.asp

[Miss Woodford]

Well, this is how I see it for the most part: http://pastthegrandstand.com/2012/06...er-horses.html
Enjoy!

Are you in any way related to a certain Louis Finochio?

[Miss Woodford]

Please provide links or sources to back up the assertion about inbreeding. If you have ever looked at 18th and 19th century TB pedigrees, many show a great deal of inbreeding. Marcel Boussac bred some classic winners in France in the 20th inbreeding to a greater degree than most would consider. This mare won the Arc de Triomphe for him as a 3 y o:

http://www.pedigreequery.com/coronation

I have never come across a scientific reference to the "weak bone gene". Bone strength has been repeatedly demonstrated to be a matter of exercise and nutrition. If you have other information, please provide a link or reference.

Well it depends on who you inbreed to
http://www.pedigreequery.com/shipboard

[Bast]

Are you in any way related to a certain Louis Finochio?

For those unfamiliar with the Louisverse:

http://racehorse.genomex.net/html/fb___nfb.html

Some of these pages are still being developed.

[Delamont]

I've always wondered what the effect of being in a stall 23hrs a day has on soundness. I think I read an article or commentary on this at some point. Horses are meant to be mobile at all times. I understand owners are trying to protect their horses by keeping them stalled, but at what cost? I would love to see a trainer that keeps his horses in a pasture at least part time. European trainers, at least some in Ireland, train over natural terrain and swear by it that it keeps them sounder.

Never owned a horse, probably never will, so take my comments with as many salt crystals as necessary; but I think this is a big part of 'unsoundness,' if it's worse today than previously. They're horses, meant to move around a lot.

Where are the stats? Back when I was a kid watching races, I might see one card a week from one track. Today we have the ability to watch every race every day, and keep score year-round, so it might seem that more horses break down.

I'm also a big proponent of Keeping It Simple.

[Pronzini]

Never owned a horse, probably never will, so take my comments with as many salt crystals as necessary; but I think this is a big part of 'unsoundness,' if it's worse today than previously. They're horses, meant to move around a lot.

Where are the stats? Back when I was a kid watching races, I might see one card a week from one track. Today we have the ability to watch every race every day, and keep score year-round, so it might seem that more horses break down.

I'm also a big proponent of Keeping It Simple.

Good points. Most people I've asked who've been around the track for several decades don't think horses are any different than they were in the 70s but the way that they are trained sure has changed. Charlie Whittingham used to blow horses out the morning of the race- who today works three eighths the day that a horse will run? Horses used to run into shape every two to three weeks-now you see ten works and a race instead. The mileage is the same but the time of day is different.

I'm not convinced the breeding is that different from the 70s to today. Take a look at the careers of What A Pleasure, Exclusive Native, Raise A Native, Irish Castle, Boldnesian, Drone etc

As for the whole drug thing, Haskin has a great splash of reality column this week. I'd forgotten about the Sublimaze scandal. That good ol' days stuff never seems to hold up when you look closer.

[Intelligent Male]

Good points. Most people I've asked who've been around the track for several decades don't think horses are any different than they were in the 70s but the way that they are trained sure has changed. Charlie Whittingham used to blow horses out the morning of the race- who today works three eighths the day that a horse will run? Horses used to run into shape every two to three weeks-now you see ten works and a race instead. The mileage is the same but the time of day is different.

I'm not convinced the breeding is that different from the 70s to today. Take a look at the careers of What A Pleasure, Exclusive Native, Raise A Native, Irish Castle, Boldnesian, Drone etc

As for the whole drug thing, Haskin has a great splash of reality column this week. I'd forgotten about the Sublimaze scandal. That good ol' days stuff never seems to hold up when you look closer.

Agree.

A number of legendary trainers will tell you that year-round racing is one of the biggest changes from 'the old days' to today.

Used to be that horses got the winter off in some place like South Carolina.

And the focus on trainer 'stats' has changed things and trainers are less likely to let a horse race into shape because they feel pressure to always be going for the win to keep their percentage up.

Additionally trainers who want to let a horse race into shape often can't get races to fill because there are too many tracks and not enough horses to fill certain races. Trying to find a NW2X Allowance for 3yo's that will fill is very difficult on a lot of circuits. Quite often when internet observers say a horse must not be sound because they only run every 45 days or so, or they say a trainer doesn't run a horse enough, it's not from a lack of trying by the trainer - they just can't get a race to go.