How to improve the TB breed (Soundness)

[RuffianZenyatta15]

The TB breed was never as fragile as it is today. Horses would run on surfaces as hard as concrete and covered with rocks over 6-7 miles races sometimes 2 times a day and not go lame. The horses that did breakdown were unfortunately put down. Only the soundest horses made it to the breeding shed. Now, horses breakdown all the time even with softer and safer surfaces. Horses that survive these break downs are sent to breeding. These horse pass on their weak leg bones to their foals, making the breed weaker. Some stallions also carry a weak bone gene. Native Dancer is most known for passing this gene onto his foals. Native Dancer was one of the best stallions to enter the breeding shed. He sired many champions and is still influential in pedigrees today. He is in almost every TB pedigree. Most every race horse that breaks down can be traced to Native Dancer. Barbaro and Eight Belles trace back to Native Dancer. Native Dancers son Raise A Native was known for his weak ankles. He can be found in Eight Belles pedigree. Inbreeding is another reason why horse have weaker bones. The inbreeding of horses like Native Dancer, Raise and Native and Bold Ruler, who all carried the weak bone gene, has made TB's weaker. Horses with less inbreeding are sounder and do better at racing.
We should only breed sound horses. If a horse retires because of injury he or she should not breed. They could be used as lead ponies or sent to retirement homes.

[GreenasGrass]

Do you have any proof to back up your first claim?

[RuffianZenyatta15]

I did my research

[Jas]

.

[dreamer]

At the risk of sounding like an idiot, I don't think that anyone, myself included, ever sat down when deciding breeding decisions and said "I think I'll breed an unsound horse". No one ever wants an unsound horse and realistically no one breeds one "on purpose".

I believe that horses do not have the stamina that they did years ago and cannot race as frequently as they did in years past. Is that the surface, the pedigree, or some other factor? I am sure if I had the answer to that I would have a lot more money in my bank account than I do right now and certainly if there was a true answer to that question someone would have found it by now (and we would all be applying it). I don't think we will ever "do away" with breakdowns on the track. Unfortunately that is part of the business of racing. I believe people do come together to try and make the tracks a safer place for our horses to race, but accidents will happen. Anyone that has been around a horse will know that - it doesn't have to be on the track. They will get caught in a gate, they will flip over in the saddling area or when you are walking them to pasture, they will colic or something else will happen. It just does.

Do people take extreme measures to "save" their horses that have breakdowns on the track? They sure do. One particular one comes to mind. But wasn't my horse, wasn't my call, just my opinion. So I don't know why some people take extreme measures to save some horses. That is a whole new topic.

It would be interesting to see where your information came from however.

[Purcocious]

Personally, I think the biggest problem is breeding crookedness, not necessarily unsoundness. I feel like a lot of the racing industry has gotten too caught up in stuff like 'Oh, he's a Storm Cat so he'll run through those crooked knees' or 'Pigeon toes just make them faster' and then wonder why the horses aren't sound.

[pokeyman]

Nah.....there are plenty of sound horses out there and horses of years gone by were just as crooked. Here is my list of culprits:

-racing on drugs

-racing year round without a 3-4 month vacation

-Breeding primarily for the commercial market first and racehorse second

-Trainers who are now required to manage race careers to ensure future breeding value (keep their race records "studable" by choosing their spots and protecting their clients "investments")

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?

[Miss Woodford]

It's all Phalaris' fault! [/louis]

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?

Also this. In Australia even top horses will run back a week later. And I'll direct your attention to our wonderful timber horses, who'll run 4 miles over big fences 7 days apart. The famous Maryland Hunt Triple is 3 timber races in 3 weeks.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...833&registry=T

[algobbi]

It's all Phalaris' fault! [/louis]


Also this. In Australia even top horses will run back a week later. And I'll direct your attention to our wonderful timber horses, who'll run 4 miles over big fences 7 days apart. The famous Maryland Hunt Triple is 3 timber races in 3 weeks.
http://www.equibase.com/premium/eqbH...833&registry=T

Looking back in the DRF archives and saw that their was a timber race at Arlington on the 1984 Million Card.

[ElPrado1]

Oh for Heaven's sake.
Another fan of Louis the fool.
The man knows nothing about breeding horses. He finally described what he thought happened to his lousy pigeons. He wasn't feeding them right and they lost condition. He claims to be able to see weak spindly legs on one line of race horses. He's a loon. He couldn't tell that line of horse from a Clydesdale. He sells socks and hats to grooms and hotwalkers on the backstretch. He's never owned a horse in his life.

[Miss Woodford]

Looking back in the DRF archives and saw that their was a timber race at Arlington on the 1984 Million Card.

Can't be, timber jumps are immobile, or at least impossible to take down in the 30 minutes between races. Perhaps a hurdle?

[Joltman]

Nah.....

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?

I'm with you Poke

jm

[halo]

Can't be, timber jumps are immobile, or at least impossible to take down in the 30 minutes between races. Perhaps a hurdle?

I think, and I could be wrong (fuzzy memory), but I think the race was actually held at a timber track, not at the venue where the BC was.

[serenassong]

Nah.....there are plenty of sound horses out there and horses of years gone by were just as crooked. Here is my list of culprits:

-racing on drugs

-racing year round without a 3-4 month vacation

-Breeding primarily for the commercial market first and racehorse second

-Trainers who are now required to manage race careers to ensure future breeding value (keep their race records "studable" by choosing their spots and protecting their clients "investments")

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?

All are valid points, but this is my biggest pet peeve. Ok, so gone are the days of operations breeding and campaigning their own, taking there time and having the money to do it, but come on all ready. Something had/has to give, and it is the horse. I know that in the European Sports Horse books- a stallion has to pass soundness and conformation exams for grading/inclusion into the stud book. Felt that this should be implemented in some form or fashion for the TB. I understand that some horses would have been passed over that perhaps would not have passed, but way too many stallions out now that have no business being bred.

Found this interesting in regards to Trakehners http://www.trakehners.uk.com/stallions.htm

ETA: Found this link on the first site, check out under "Vet Standards" and "Performance Test"
http://www.nationalstallion.org.uk/

[halo]

The TB breed was never as fragile as it is today. Horses would run on surfaces as hard as concrete and covered with rocks over 6-7 miles races sometimes 2 times a day and not go lame. The horses that did breakdown were unfortunately put down. Only the soundest horses made it to the breeding shed. Now, horses breakdown all the time even with softer and safer surfaces. Horses that survive these break downs are sent to breeding. These horse pass on their weak leg bones to their foals, making the breed weaker. Some stallions also carry a weak bone gene. Native Dancer is most known for passing this gene onto his foals. Native Dancer was one of the best stallions to enter the breeding shed. He sired many champions and is still influential in pedigrees today. He is in almost every TB pedigree. Most every race horse that breaks down can be traced to Native Dancer. Barbaro and Eight Belles trace back to Native Dancer. Native Dancers son Raise A Native was known for his weak ankles. He can be found in Eight Belles pedigree. Inbreeding is another reason why horse have weaker bones. The inbreeding of horses like Native Dancer, Raise and Native and Bold Ruler, who all carried the weak bone gene, has made TB's weaker. Horses with less inbreeding are sounder and do better at racing.
We should only breed sound horses. If a horse retires because of injury he or she should not breed. They could be used as lead ponies or sent to retirement homes.

Those old time horses ran uphill both ways too. Thru snow. Without shoes. (Thanks Bill Cosby).

You need to look at the whole picture there. You dont hear about the horses that broke down. Only the live ones. And they ran much slower. And the tracks werent hard and full of rocks. Nowadays they are hard.

Horses dont break down all the time. How many horses run on race tracks every day. Aqueduct is not the only race track running right now.

You are reading too many stories. For every horse that breaks down that traces to Native Dancer, theres 500 more that didnt. Dont forget the other 36 horses in the immediate pedigree that the horses who broke down trace to. Why blame Native Dancer? Why not blame Polynesian? Why not Geisha, she only made 11 starts. How bout Picton? He only made 10 starts.

Actually, Raise a Native would be more likely the culprit. A very fast, very top heavy horse, who retired after 4 very fast starts due to ankles. A cursory glance at his progeny show horses that didnt make a whole lot of starts. Unlike Native Dancer, who had progeny with long careers.

Rather than reading stories, you should get some books that actually depict facts, other than embellishment to make a good story. Theres so many wonderful old books. Some of my favorite ones are The American Race Horse, which was published every year from 1936 to 1962. You can find them on Ebay, or abebooks. Wonderful books, full of pictures and facts. In reading about these horses, you'll be surprised to find so much of what happens now happened back then too. Horses got hurt back then, too. They just didnt have the internet then to tell the world the instant it happened.

And, fwiw, as much as I really enjoy the early beginnings of the TBs, and the history from the 1900's on, and I really really do, I dont wear rose colored glasses. They had no drug testing or DNA panels, so horses were 'hopped', and pedigrees werent always as advertised. Thus the fairly recent advances in drug testing and dna testing. Im far more confident nowadays in knowing the horses are who their papers say they are and that horse run clean, than back in those "good old days", when anything went, and often did. Man O War himself was often referred to as the greatest hop horse that ever lived, tho even if he were, he was obviously still extraordinarily talented, as his produce record would indicate.

P.S. Phalaris made 24 starts. His sire made 31 starts.

[SCHARM456]

I've always wondered what the effect of being in a stall 23hrs a day has on soundness. I think I read an article or commentary on this at some point. Horses are meant to be mobile at all times. I understand owners are trying to protect their horses by keeping them stalled, but at what cost? I would love to see a trainer that keeps his horses in a pasture at least part time. European trainers, at least some in Ireland, train over natural terrain and swear by it that it keeps them sounder.

[Jane]

Nah.....there are plenty of sound horses out there and horses of years gone by were just as crooked. Here is my list of culprits:

-racing on drugs

-racing year round without a 3-4 month vacation

-Breeding primarily for the commercial market first and racehorse second

-Trainers who are now required to manage race careers to ensure future breeding value (keep their race records "studable" by choosing their spots and protecting their clients "investments")

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?

I just wanted to agree with you!!!

[Rainyday]

I used to agree with the OP. Over the last few years, I've thought about it and taken in a lot of opinions, and although I think breeders are not entirely in the clear, I think the big culprit is training methods, along with drugs and surfaces. After all, there are a lot of American bloodlines with countries with lesser breakdown rates.

And there's a basic logical fallacy in blaming breakdowns on Native Dancer.

Yes, most horses that break down are descended from Native Dancer.

That's because most registered Thoroughbreds are descended from Native Dancer.

Hard to find a pedigree without Mr. P or Northern Dancer these days (I know I once heard the fact that over 50% of registered TBs were descended from Northern Dancer alone, and that was 15 years ago, so pretty sure it's higher now.) Both were grandsons of Native Dancer. Look at the lower breakdown rate in Europe--and all the Northern Dancer blood.

Native Dancer isn't the only bottleneck in the TB genetic population--just one of the more recent. Show me some numbers that show the breakdown rate for horses with Native Dancer blood is higher than the rate of Native Dancer descendants in the TB population, and then I'll believe that.

(Why stop at Native Dancer? Heck, let's blame the Darley Arabian. I bet all the horses that break down are descended from him. Definitely his fault.)

[Psychotic Parakeet]

I believe the main culprit is that most of these horses are not racing enough. Sitting in a stall 23 hours a day, racing once every 3-8 weeks, and just jogging for a few minutes a day in one direction is not doing anything good. There is really no chance of the bone density strengthening properly to withstand the now "sporadic pressures" of an actual race scenario. Other culprit are certain tracks that have their surface paved down as hard as the Pomona Drag Strip.

[Insane Crazy]

I know that in the European Sports Horse books- a stallion has to pass soundness and conformation exams for grading/inclusion into the stud book. Felt that this should be implemented in some form or fashion for the TB. I understand that some horses would have been passed over that perhaps would not have passed, but way too many stallions out now that have no business being bred.

Found this interesting in regards to Trakehners http://www.trakehners.uk.com/stallions.htm

ETA: Found this link on the first site, check out under "Vet Standards" and "Performance Test"
http://www.nationalstallion.org.uk/

Yup, for a lot of European warmblood breeds they have to not only be supremely well conformed (and this is what most broodmares are scored off of), but many of them require stallions to either meet performance requirements through successful showing or pass a 30-100 day performance test. The stallions whose foals may be registered are going to be very nice, very sound animals with real ability, and these animals are usually extremely successful anyway.

There are, just like in racing, horses who have glaring imperfections in their conformation, who excel in jumping, eventing, etc. The difference between those horses and racing horses is that a jumper with a major, but not performance-debilitating, imperfection was probably gelded before the age of three. Seem to be way more geldings in high level arenas of competition in all other sports but racing, where performance beats conformation...but oftentimes at the risk of soundness.