How to improve the TB breed (Soundness)

[SCHARM456]

(Why stop at Native Dancer? Heck, let's blame the Darley Arabian. I bet all the horses that break down are descended from him. Definitely his fault.)[/QUOTE]


Haaa!


I think the only sure fire reason for horses being unsound is the all mighty dollar. As the previous poster mentioned, horses in most other sporting arenas that have huge conformation faults are gelded. Owners are being responsible in those instances and not caring how well he may do in said sport and the potential stud fees they could acheive. The dollar could be blamed from trainers to racetracks. Do whatever you have to do to get a horse to a race and keep the racetrack profitable no matter what the cost to the horse is.

(I hope that paragraph makes sense... my sentence structure is a bit off today )

[GotaDunQH]

I used to agree with the OP. Over the last few years, I've thought about it and taken in a lot of opinions, and although I think breeders are not entirely in the clear, I think the big culprit is training methods, along with drugs and surfaces. After all, there are a lot of American bloodlines with countries with lesser breakdown rates.

And there's a basic logical fallacy in blaming breakdowns on Native Dancer.

Yes, most horses that break down are descended from Native Dancer.

That's because most registered Thoroughbreds are descended from Native Dancer.

Hard to find a pedigree without Mr. P or Northern Dancer these days (I know I once heard the fact that over 50% of registered TBs were descended from Northern Dancer alone, and that was 15 years ago, so pretty sure it's higher now.) Both were grandsons of Native Dancer. Look at the lower breakdown rate in Europe--and all the Northern Dancer blood.

Native Dancer isn't the only bottleneck in the TB genetic population--just one of the more recent. Show me some numbers that show the breakdown rate for horses with Native Dancer blood is higher than the rate of Native Dancer descendants in the TB population, and then I'll believe that.

(Why stop at Native Dancer? Heck, let's blame the Darley Arabian. I bet all the horses that break down are descended from him. Definitely his fault.)

Like this post. You have a stud as popular as Native Dancer who shows up in a gazillion pedigrees...he was pretty darn prolific. That's not something I would base a blanket statement on...saying it's HIS fault (so I agree with you).

Love the last sentence....so I guess we also need to blame the Goldophin Arabian too. Or heck, blame it on Janus, who was imported here back in the mid 1700's, and had a big hand in the beginnings of the American TB, the QH, and others

Training methods play a big role in keeping a horse sound. If commonsense was used in that matter along with good health maintenance in general you can lessen the incidents of unsoundness. A lot of things go into "sound" and "unsound"....conformation, maintenance, training methods etc.

[GotaDunQH]

(Why stop at Native Dancer? Heck, let's blame the Darley Arabian. I bet all the horses that break down are descended from him. Definitely his fault.)

Haaa!


I think the only sure fire reason for horses being unsound is the all mighty dollar. As the previous poster mentioned, horses in most other sporting arenas that have huge conformation faults are gelded. Owners are being responsible in those instances and not caring how well he may do in said sport and the potential stud fees they could acheive. The dollar could be blamed from trainers to racetracks. Do whatever you have to do to get a horse to a race and keep the racetrack profitable no matter what the cost to the horse is.

(I hope that paragraph makes sense... my sentence structure is a bit off today )[/QUOTE]

Made sense to me...LOL!

[PerfectSoul]

It is very untrue that horses in other disciplines are gelded if they have huge confirmation flaws. Over the decades I have seen simply horrific confirmation trends come and go in popularity with breeds such as quarter horses and arabians.

When it comes TBs I put the bulk of the blame with breeders. I think TB horses were sounder back when many breeders kept more of their stock for racing, and operated with an eye to improving their own breeding stock. Now it seems so many TB breeders are after a physical "type" or bloodline that is commercially appealing.

[GotaDunQH]

It is very untrue that horses in other disciplines are gelded if they have huge confirmation flaws. Over the decades I have seen simply horrific confirmation trends come and go in popularity with breeds such as quarter horses and arabians.

When it comes TBs I put the bulk of the blame with breeders. I think TB horses were sounder back when many breeders kept more of their stock for racing, and operated with an eye to improving their own breeding stock. Now it seems so many TB breeders are after a physical "type" or bloodline that is commercially appealing.

Yea, it seems when "humans" get involved and want to better the breed to suit their own agenda...things can go awry. Have you ever seen a top AQHA Halter Horse? My God, what were halter breeders thinking??? They bred the feet right off of them! A horse that size with that amount of bulk, body and muscle SHOULD have the size feet of a draft horse...but that wasn't "pretty"...because that is what halter class is today...pretty and form to function was heaved out the window. So, they bred them for smaller feet, very upright feet with no angles. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a halter class, standing my performance bred horse up in line, when all the "real" halter horses were standing there with their knees shaking and buckling. Pretty sad....

And Arabs? With the OVERLY dished faces which is a trend? There has to be some health/breathing problems that goes with that.

So, it makes sense to breed two quality individuals so you less of a chance of perpetuating conformation faults.

[ElPrado1]

Yeah, halter QH's had hooves the size of your fist, if that big. You'd wonder if they had the underpinnings to trot across the show ring.
Arabs did have breathing problems, too.
Now, buyers are looking for 17 hand 2 year old TBs at sales. Are you trying to tell me that their bones can stand up to training in March of their 2 year old year to get ready for the sales? You wonder why they buck shins or have chipped knees and ankles? No wonder those fantastically bred babies can't make it to the races. Their legs were destroyed before they got that far. It isn't the breeding... it's the lousy conditioning.

[Insane Crazy]

It is very untrue that horses in other disciplines are gelded if they have huge confirmation flaws. Over the decades I have seen simply horrific confirmation trends come and go in popularity with breeds such as quarter horses and arabians.

When it comes TBs I put the bulk of the blame with breeders. I think TB horses were sounder back when many breeders kept more of their stock for racing, and operated with an eye to improving their own breeding stock. Now it seems so many TB breeders are after a physical "type" or bloodline that is commercially appealing.

It certainly happens that poor specimens get through in all breeds, but I specifically said warmblood types because, well, to be registered isn't just having a pedigree like in Arabians and QH - full registration requires both parents to have passed certain qualifiers and be fully registered (in some cases, half papers and breeding up to full registration is possible), so a horse who does not pass those qualifiers adequately is useless as a sire for someone who wants breedable stock.

Of course, these imperfect animals can go on into less strict registries or still breed unregistered animals. But the money is in having those registries, so in many cases they will geld them. There are way more geldings in the upper levels of show jumping, eventing, dressage, hunters, etc. than there are in the top half of horse racing. Not to say these registries are in any way perfect or that people aren't still greedy-ing it up outside of them, breeding crap mares, breeding poorly paired up sires and dams, etc...just that there is a system out there that works pretty well for keeping people breeding nice animals.

Your second paragraph basically is another way of stating the problem I am referencing. With performance and conformation requirements in Warmblood registries, everyone wants to maintain or improve their product over each generation, both in the way they're put together (often links directly to soundness) and in performance. In racing, at least now, that's not the deal - they want fast, they want commercial, and that doesn't always mean a well put together horse.

ETA: Unrelated, but it still blows my mind when I look at a halter horse. Why breed a horse who is totally useless to do anything but stand around and look muscled? Why is that a even a discipline? I get performance halter, when the animals go onto be great at other things, but WHY are ANY animals being bred to stand around in pain and look shiny? Is there just a lot of money in it, or what?

[GotaDunQH]

It certainly happens that poor specimens get through in all breeds, but I specifically said warmblood types because, well, to be registered isn't just having a pedigree like in Arabians and QH - full registration requires both parents to have passed certain qualifiers and be fully registered (in some cases, half papers and breeding up to full registration is possible), so a horse who does not pass those qualifiers adequately is useless as a sire for someone who wants breedable stock.

Of course, these imperfect animals can go on into other registries or still breed unregistered animals. But the money is in having those registries, so in many cases they will geld them. There are way more geldings in the upper levels of show jumping, eventing, dressage, hunters, etc. than there are in the top half of horse racing.

Your second paragraph basically is another way of stating the problem I am referencing. With performance and conformation requirements in Warmblood registries, everyone wants to maintain or improve their product over each generation, both in the way they're put together (often links directly to soundness) and in performance. In racing, at least now, that's not the deal - they want fast, they want commercial, and that doesn't always mean a well put together horse.

Yep, they have actual hands-on inspections....you are in or you are out, no gray area. I wish they would do that in other breed associations.

[ElPrado1]

That's what they did breed them to do. Stand around with a chain over their nose and shine. Half of them were never even broke.

[Insane Crazy]

Yep, they have actual hands-on inspections....you are in or you are out, no gray area. I wish they would do that in other breed associations.

Especially, and your name and the post I responded to make me pick this one out, QH and stock breeds. A well bred, functional, nicely put together QH or Appaloosa is a beautiful thing to behold. Too bad people can breed it if it has testicles and a pedgiree saying it's a QH. The original point of these horses is that they can go all day and do it all, right? So why put them on tiny teacup feet and with HYPP and reward them for it? Drives me mad.

Love seeing a good, pretty cutting, reining, or barrel horse really shine. Not huge on HUS stock breeds, because it can look so strange to someone used to big springy H/J animals, but those too. =P

[GotaDunQH]

That's what they did breed them to do. Stand around with a chain over their nose and shine. Half of them were never even broke.

It''s like riding a friggin' jack hammer. They just were not bred with a conformation that can perform. Sure, you can ride one if you want a hack horse. But they are bred specifically to stand up square (if their knees don't give out) for the 10 minutes it takes to judge a class.

[GotaDunQH]

Especially, and your name and the post I responded to make me pick this one out, QH and stock breeds. A well bred, functional, nicely put together QH or Appaloosa is a beautiful thing to behold. Too bad people can breed it if it has testicles and a pedgiree saying it's a QH. The original point of these horses is that they can go all day and do it all, right? So why put them on tiny teacup feet and with HYPP and reward them for it? Drives me mad.

Love seeing a good, pretty cutting, reining, or barrel horse really shine. Not huge on HUS stock breeds, because it can look so strange to someone used to big springy H/J animals, but those too. =P

Don't even get me started on the HYPP thing....LOL. AQHA had made steps in the registration of positive horses. Only N/H horses can be registered...but it needs to go further. The other stock breeds have done nothing in the way of taking a stand on it.

HUS horses are usually Appendix bred...a TB x a QH, and ya....most of them don't resemble a QH at all. So I hear ya on that one! AQHA is making a concerted effort to get these HUS horses to move more traditional hunter-like. It's a long time in the making. I'm an AQHA person through and through, but I'll be the first one to admit the messed up stuff that happens within the breed.

[Jas]

When it comes TBs I put the bulk of the blame with breeders. I think TB horses were sounder back when many breeders kept more of their stock for racing, and operated with an eye to improving their own breeding stock. Now it seems so many TB breeders are after a physical "type" or bloodline that is commercially appealing.

While certain physicals and stallions are more appealing in the sales ring, I don't know many breeders who aren't striving to produce a race horse. You're doing nothing but quickly dropping the value of your mares if you don't breed with athleticism in mind, first and foremost.

Also, why blame breeders for what's commercial and some internet perception of what's unsound? Buyers dictate what's commercial and breeders invest in the stallions the buyers want. And the buyers want what they feel are producing the best athletes where it matters, in races.

This whole "blaming a party" thing is ridiculous. Breeders are doing nothing but responding to the market, not setting it.

[pokeyman]

I must disagree. Too many people breed for the commercial market. Big physicals and "hot" pedigrees. Buyers dictate breeding decisions. Exactly. That's the whole dang problem.

I would not call breeding an unproven mare to a freshman stallion who made 5 starts "trying to produce a racehorse". I don't give a sh*t how athletic he was......

Shockingly, these freshmen stallions have higher stud fees than proven, great value breed to race stallions and they don't have one foal at the track!

I don't remember a time when there have been more commercial owners and breeders than breeders who race homebreds. It's a spiral. These new owners and breeders want a quick return on their investments. There is no patience.

Commercially speaking, you take baby and prep him for the yearling sale; put shoes on him at 18 months and stall him 23 hours a day; breeze the piss out of him at 2 to get a great sale price; then send him right to the track to race. Does this sound like it will produce a sound horse?

Now, add the drugs, year round racing, and a trainer who doesn't know jack about how to get a horse truly fit and you have a disaster.

I breed to race. Period.

[Jas]

And how many breed to race outfits are left at the top level? Or hell, even the middle level? The pendulum of profit and wealth has shifted and having a mid to large string of homebreds becomes a sinking ship for most. Not to mention the repercussions to an already deflating industry.

There would have to be a huge profit, expenses and purse restructuring to ensure that level of commitment from most.

And no, I don't know a single breeder who doesn't attempt to breed the most athletic horse they can possibly get. How many unproven mares go to unproven stallions? Maybe half of a book? When you consider two of the most lauded racehorses of the past X years in Zenyatta and Rachel Alexandra both came from breeding unproven to unproven, you can see where hope springs eternal and people try it.

Who'da thunk a stallion with a total of 8 starts and some scary knees would give us the greatest racemare we've seen in quite some time. And she did it sound, even though her mother only started 7 times. Train wreck!

Positioning the blame on commercial breeders is about as pie in the sky as saying horses 50 years ago only ran on oats and water.

[pokeyman]

Breeders try to breed the most financially appealing horse they can for the sales ring. Let's not kid ourselves.

Of course, we, personally, strictly race our homebreds. So, for our breedings, we look at things like number of starts; if there were any surgeries; any breathing issues; was the horse a true bleeder; quality of hooves; etc. The exact opposite of a commercial breeders list. They don't care about those things if the horse has a great physical; can breeze a furlong in 10 seconds (last I checked there are no 1 furlong races); and is by a hot sire. Hot as in, commercially, hot. Deep down you know I am right.

I would not consider you a pure commercial breeder as even though you try to flip horses you race what can't sell. Apples and oranges.

In our program, we are not even considering things like size (not even in the least...I bought a 14.3hh stakes mare that everyone crapped on in sale but she had a fabulous pedigree and ran a 97 beyer. Commercial breeders couldn't get past her size. 2 to race for her and 2 winners). We NEVER breed to an unproven stallion. Why lower your odds even more?

I think people are right to point the finger at the commercial market...where there is smoke there is fire. But, they are not the sole culprit.....just in case I didn't mention drugs, year round racing, and trainers that don't have a clue how to get a horse truly fit.

But, we will have to agree to disagree as I respect your opinion! It's nothing personal!! I appreciate your point of view...

[TBird]

Breeders try to breed the most financially appealing horse they can for the sales ring. Let's not kid ourselves.

Of course, we, personally, strictly race our homebreds. So, for our breedings, we look at things like number of starts; if there were any surgeries; any breathing issues; was the horse a true bleeder; quality of hooves; etc. The exact opposite of a commercial breeders list. They don't care about those things if the horse has a great physical; can breeze a furlong in 10 seconds (last I checked there are no 1 furlong races); and is by a hot sire. Hot as in, commercially, hot. Deep down you know I am right.

I disagree. And I'm not kidding myself. A blanket statement like that seems crazy to me. Which breeders? All breeders? Really?

Just about everybody I know breeds racehorses. And most of them send their best ones to the sales. Why? Because it costs a fortune to race a horse and in most cases, even with a solid mid-level runner your chances of recouping your money through purse money are virtually nil.

But of course not every horse that goes to the sale, sells. So then the breeder is left to race those horses themselves. Knowing that's a distinct possibility upfront, who on earth would be stupid enough to try to produce a horse that didn't have serious racing potential?

It's all well and good for you to stand on your soapbox and basically say "I do it the right way and commercial breeders are stupid" but I've never seen any evidence that you actually know what commercial breeders are thinking when they plan their matings. You've assigned a thought process to them that they themselves would find utterly foreign to what they're trying to accomplish.

[pokeyman]

Tbird,

We will have to agree to disagree! Unfortunately, the tide has turned and the majority of breeders breed for the commercial market. You need to be stupid or insane to breed to race (unfortunately, we are both)!

I know of only ONE other breeder that breeds to race in my region. And, as a members of 3 state breeding associations I know a lot of breeders!

Case in point.....look at what stallions NY brought to the state. Almost all of them are unproven commercial sires. Go ahead. Check the list of new stallions in NY. Some of these stallions made less than 5 starts.

The only somewhat new breed to race stallion is Alphabet Soup and nobody will breed to him because he is not commercial.

I was very sad to see Repent get the boot by NY breeders. Do you know why..."not commercial". That's what I was told by everyone surrounding the horse. It is shocking how few breeders used the horse.

So, I am not getting on my soapbox. But, I am sharing a strong OPINION from someone who has been involved in the game for awhile...I respect everyone's opinion and everyone is free to express theirs. I am a bit shocked at your personal attack. Thought you were above that...

Hope people can stay on topic and discuss why the modern TB seems to be unsound while being civil and respectful. Why does almost every single thread on this forum end with attacks? Seriously. That's why I took a break from posting.

[TBird]

Pokey you may feel that I attacked you personally. I felt that I was merely replying in kind. Are commerical breeders not meant to take statements like this personally?

So, for our breedings, we look at things like number of starts; if there were any surgeries; any breathing issues; was the horse a true bleeder; quality of hooves; etc. The exact opposite of a commercial breeders list. They don't care about those things...

You are not a commercial breeder and yet you claim to know exactly what they are thinking when they plan their matings I don't see how that's possible.

For all the vilification commercial breeders receive on this board, it's interesting to note that if you look at the entries for the top races coming up this weekend, or for the Derby, the Oaks, the Travers, etc you will find that the majority of the horses racing at that level were bred by...yup, commerical breeders.

If the commercial breeders are doing such a bad job of producing racehorses, why aren't the horses bred by the breed-to-race crowd out there kicking their butts?

[pokeyman]

Pokey you may feel that I attacked you personally. I felt that I was merely replying in kind. Are commerical breeders not meant to take statements like this personally?



You are not a commercial breeder and yet you claim to know exactly what they are thinking when they plan their matings I don't see how that's possible.

For all the vilification commercial breeders receive on this board, it's interesting to note that if you look at the entries for the top races coming up this weekend, or for the Derby, the Oaks, the Travers, etc you will find that the majority of the horses racing at that level were bred by...yup, commerical breeders.

If the commercial breeders are doing such a bad job of producing racehorses, why aren't the horses bred by the breed-to-race crowd out there kicking their butts?

No, but my friends ARE commercial breeders and one manages one of the top commercial operations in NY. So, I *do* know what they are thinking!! We shoot the crap all the time about it and I say the exact same thing to them that I posted! They, in kind, say I am insane and must like to suffer if I breed to race....

I ask them why they take an unsound mare with a good pedigree (but was still unsound) and breed her to an unproven (often equally lame) stud who also had major breathing issues. They say because of the pedigree and size of horses involved. Sure enough, that foal sells.

The question wasn't who produces the best racehorse. The question is why are modern thoroughbreds unsound?

I stated earlier why, in my opinion, they are unsound:

"Nah.....there are plenty of sound horses out there and horses of years gone by were just as crooked. Here is my list of culprits:

-racing on drugs

-racing year round without a 3-4 month vacation

-Breeding primarily for the commercial market first and racehorse second

-Trainers who are now required to manage race careers to ensure future breeding value (keep their race records "studable" by choosing their spots and protecting their clients "investments")

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit

-Did I mention trainers who do not know how to get a horse truly fit?"

I need to go continue on with my life and will be offline. Please don't take that as a slight to you at my lack of response.....