No Black Caviar thread? Well, here it is.

[Man o' Taz]

Name all the horses who clearly disliked the surface (not said to dislike it by their trainr after, but clearly showed it to all of us watching) in a top G1 race yet still won or lost by a good head.

Zenyatta again on the polytrack at Del Mar...it was well known she did not like the surface. On at least one occasion I thought she refused even to go onto the track. And she won the race three times.

Of course, the first time it was not a Grade 1 race I do not think.

[Grade1]

Even if you don't think she was "uncomfortable" early, a quick comparison with her other races will show she was running strangely out of the gate. She did drop farther behind the lead than she ever had before (don't cite the half fraction, it was before that, as you well know ...

According to the BC Classic charts (and assuming 'hd'=0.125 length):

In 2009, she was 15.25 lengths behind in a 24.16 first quarter.

In 2010, she was 16.375 lengths behind in a 23.24 first quarter.

These seem roughly comparable or possibly indicate Z went faster in 2010 (I know there are caveats: different surfaces, track configurations, a year apart, etc.).

The first quarter time in 2010 was also a smaller percentage of the total race time than in 2009; maybe another indication the early pace was relatively faster in 2010.

I don't claim to be an expert race watcher, but watch the 2009 and 2010 first quarters on Youtube. I don't see that Z looks radically different in 2010. She doesn't look all that good in at least the first part of the first quarter in 2009 either.

[Thinair]

Name all the horses who clearly disliked the surface (not said to dislike it by their trainr after, but clearly showed it to all of us watching) in a top G1 race yet still won or lost by a good head.

You have got to be kidding me?????

She didn't like the surface....she LOVED it. It's inarguable.

You have a better chance of convincing me that pigs fly.

There really should be a book entitled " More Lies About Zenyatta."

[Man o' Taz]

She didn't struggle over that course. That's why I said that I wasn't talking of a claim by a trainer that a horse doesn't like a track, but instead what we see with our own eyes during a race.

It wasn't just her trainer. It was her jockey too.

[Thinair]

It wasn't just her trainer. It was her jockey too.

Even more proof it's ridiculous.

But, honestly, when a horse runs one if it's best races ever, the " she didn't handle the track " excuse doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Honestly, it's about gambling, as people that bet this game seriously would NEVER entertain jibberish like that. NEVER.

[MR.W]

Even more proof it's ridiculous.

But, honestly, when a horse runs one if it's best races ever, the " she didn't handle the track " excuse doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Honestly, it's about gambling, as people that bet this game seriously would NEVER entertain jibberish like that. NEVER.

Well, I'm not looking for excuses because Z just plain lost. However, I attended 16 of her races and saw the other four on television and I never saw her run the first quarter mile like she did in the 2010 Classic. Z looked very uncomfortable until she got going on the back side of the track. Her hesitation to run early just made her a nose too late=lost, plain and simple. But please, don't insult us by stating that she liked the track. It was obvious that she didn't and her extraordinary class carried her beyond what most uncomfortable athletes would ever think of doing.

[Commentator]

Well, I was on the rail of the first turn that day, and people were genuinely distressed when she ran by us that first time. Track, kickback, whatever- she looked terrible in the early goings of that race, and we all knew it.

[blamethewinner]

Well, I'm not looking for excuses because Z just plain lost. However, I attended 16 of her races and saw the other four on television and I never saw her run the first quarter mile like she did in the 2010 Classic. Z looked very uncomfortable until she got going on the back side of the track. Her hesitation to run early just made her a nose too late=lost, plain and simple. But please, don't insult us by stating that she liked the track. It was obvious that she didn't and her extraordinary class carried her beyond what most uncomfortable athletes would ever think of doing.

Oh, the surface excuse. She handled the surface fine. Might she have been a little thrown off by the kick-back? Sure. But, she was so far behind early because she completely lacked any early speed whatsoever, and was in the midst of a race run at a very demanding pace.

[islandgirl45]

Well, I was on the rail of the first turn that day, and people were genuinely distressed when she ran by us that first time. Track, kickback, whatever- she looked terrible in the early goings of that race, and we all knew it.

You could even see that on TV. It was probably the first time she'd been showered with kickback from a big field like that. In hindsight, it would have been a good thing for her to have worked over the Churchill track. But then, Baffert said after the race he wished he'd shipped Lookin At Lucky earlier, too.

Honestly, I don't see how it takes away from Blame and his 2010 BC win to acknowledge kickback/track issues affecting Z. It was what it was, and Blame was a really nice colt.

[dustino140]

Well, I was on the rail of the first turn that day, and people were genuinely distressed when she ran by us that first time. Track, kickback, whatever- she looked terrible in the early goings of that race, and we all knew it.

If this is true, which I won't choose to dispute or not, I think the ultimate question is whether or not it impacted her placing in the race.

If she didn't handle the kickback early, it was a non-factor by the end of the race, and by the end of the race she was handling the Churchill Downs surface just fine. Being that she was going to be last in the field regardless, and given that they were moving very quickly up front early, I'm not sure I'm willing to buy into the notion that it cost her the win, even if it took her a bit of running to get used to the track. By the time the real running started, she was in her usual position and was handling the track very well.

[blamethewinner]

Had nothing to do with any kickback. Had to do with her not having on turndowns over the Churchill strip -- a supposed no-no.

So not having on turn-downs bothered her for a quarter-mile? That seems a little far-fetched.

This has been addressed ad nauseum, mostly because people couldn't really come to grips with her losing, but she had no real excuse. Blame was just better than her on that day.

[blamethewinner]

I couldn't care less that she lost. I just know that this race -- even though she lost -- was the most impressive of her career, and the performance was the best of any horse in the race. Say differently, and I'll disagree with you. Maybe you have some weird reason for not liking to give her the credit due her for this race?

I think the 2010 BC Classic was her best race by a landslide.

I only wish that race had come in the middle of her career, to be honest with you, that way her connections might have begun to understand that losing is OK. Then, they could have taken on males in CA more often, maybe shipped more, or even tried turf. That could have only added to her already tremendous legacy.

[Dusty]

What thread am I reading???

[Man o' Taz]

Even more proof it's ridiculous.

But, honestly, when a horse runs one if it's best races ever, the " she didn't handle the track " excuse doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Honestly, it's about gambling, as people that bet this game seriously would NEVER entertain jibberish like that. NEVER.

I think you are confusing a couple of issues. I was speaking of the Clement Hirsch which were good races, but hardly her best race(s) ever. You seem to be speaking about the BC Classic.

Speaking of the Classic, was the first three furlongs one of her best races ever? No. She was back further than she had ever been back facing females let alone males. Further than anyone expected her to be back - especially her connections in drawing up where they wanted her placed during the race. There was a reason for that as SOS has illustrated.

Back on topic...

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/bre...-sun-dies.aspx
Desert Sun, broodmare sire of Black Caviar, dies at 24 Posted: Tuesday, June 26, 2012 6:56 PM


Desert Sun (GB), who earned acclaim as the sire of 13-time Group 1 winner and legendary New Zealand racemare Sunline and is also the broodmare sire of undefeated 2011 Australian Horse of the Year Black Caviar, died at age 24 at Eliza Park in Victoria, Australia.

[Ack Ack]

What thread am I reading???

I thought this was a Black Caviar thread. ????

[Ack Ack]

Where'd you get that idea? ;-)

LOL. No matter what the title says, it always ends up as a Zenyatta discussion.

[Codysmom55]

Yeah, a mare who retired in 2010, has a nearly 4 month old baby at her side and back in foal to Tapit.

LOL. She still has the power.

[Starine]

Really terrific piece by Jay Hovdey:

Black Caviar's Royal Ascot race a case study
http://www.drf.com/news/hovdey-black...ace-case-study

Thoughts?

[Man o' Taz]

Really terrific piece by Jay Hovdey:

Black Caviar's Royal Ascot race a case study
http://www.drf.com/news/hovdey-black...ace-case-study

Thoughts?

I have one...where's the case study?

All Hovdey did was focus on the post-race fanfare basically ignoring the race. I'd like to see a real case study if there is one.

[Late Heat]

I think you are confusing a couple of issues. I was speaking of the Clement Hirsch which were good races, but hardly her best race(s) ever. You seem to be speaking about the BC Classic.

Speaking of the Classic, was the first three furlongs one of her best races ever? No. She was back further than she had ever been back facing females let alone males. Further than anyone expected her to be back - especially her connections in drawing up where they wanted her placed during the race. There was a reason for that as SOS has illustrated.

You have to understand that Thin Air is still desperately holding on to the notion that Zenyatta wasn't a great horse (just very good). In fact he will claim she doesn't make the top 5 fillies/mares he has seen run.
Before the 2009 BC Classic he stated she wouldn't hit the board. When she won he showed his class by tweeting: "just because she won doesn't mean she's great" Lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46WwD4HQF2g

I could go on...