I saw Secretariat tonight

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Instead of nitpicking and tearing apart the movie already, why not be open-minded and enjoy it once it is released? Who cares if Disney, DreamWorks, Pixar, Paramount or Warner Bros. created this movie and it had to have twists to the actual truth. Be happy that somebody out there actually made an actual horse racing movie. It is better than nothing.

[danziggirl]

[quote author=Psychotic Parakeet link=topic=42943.msg944918#msg944918 date=1273202056]
Instead of nitpicking and tearing apart the movie already, why not be open-minded and enjoy it once it is released? Who cares if Disney, DreamWorks, Pixar, Paramount or Warner Bros. created this movie and it had to have twists to the actual truth. Be happy that somebody out there actually made an actual horse racing movie. It is better than nothing.
[/quote]
There's probably not many true life stories that are really the true thing. They make things up, change peoples names etc. I agree, maybe we should just sit back and enjoy!

[the OlLine Rebel]

[quote author=Stella19 link=topic=42943.msg944868#msg944868 date=1273195186]I know this, but I think dramatic improvements such as Disney having Sham win the Wood detract from the drama. I hate "improvements" like that. It's rote and predictable. The emotional truth about the Secretariat story is more complex than a great horse versus a somewhat less great horse. With a little imagination the Secretariat movie could celebrate Secretariat while also portraying Sham as sort of a tragic, Mozart v. Salieri figure.[/quote]


LOL, considering "Amadeus" very much gave some misimpressions, especially about Salieri.

[the OlLine Rebel]

[quote author=derbydanx link=topic=42943.msg944848#msg944848 date=1273192624]The film ends with the Belmont Stakes celebration. We get a few sentences along with real life footage of the princples as a post script, but no mention of Big Red's death, or any specifics about his stallion career other than him having 600+ foals.
[/quote]

It ends after the Belmont? Geesh! There are (only) 6 more races to cover! Really, the TC was only the beginning!

This is very "Disney", in the simplistic child-like sense - they treat it like racing stops past the TC (albeit, usually, it stops at the Derby - and also begins there). There is no more racing.

[second_glance]

[quote author=danziggirl link=topic=42943.msg944919#msg944919 date=1273202244]
[quote author=Psychotic Parakeet link=topic=42943.msg944918#msg944918 date=1273202056]
Instead of nitpicking and tearing apart the movie already, why not be open-minded and enjoy it once it is released? Who cares if Disney, DreamWorks, Pixar, Paramount or Warner Bros. created this movie and it had to have twists to the actual truth. Be happy that somebody out there actually made an actual horse racing movie. It is better than nothing.
[/quote]
There's probably not many true life stories that are really the true thing. They make things up, change peoples names etc. I agree, maybe we should just sit back and enjoy!
[/quote]

There's a reason that such movies are usually designated in the publicity as "based on" a true story.

You can't tell the true story of a person's life or even an episode in a person's life in 2 hours or less.

[the OlLine Rebel]

[quote author=second_glance link=topic=42943.msg944925#msg944925 date=1273203322]
[quote author=danziggirl link=topic=42943.msg944919#msg944919 date=1273202244]
[quote author=Psychotic Parakeet link=topic=42943.msg944918#msg944918 date=1273202056]
Instead of nitpicking and tearing apart the movie already, why not be open-minded and enjoy it once it is released? Who cares if Disney, DreamWorks, Pixar, Paramount or Warner Bros. created this movie and it had to have twists to the actual truth. Be happy that somebody out there actually made an actual horse racing movie. It is better than nothing.
[/quote]
There's probably not many true life stories that are really the true thing. They make things up, change peoples names etc. I agree, maybe we should just sit back and enjoy!
[/quote]

There's a reason that such movies are usually designated in the publicity as "based on" a true story.

You can't tell the true story of a person's life or even an episode in a person's life in 2 hours or less.
[/quote]

Actually, you can. Many movies "based on" history are actually quite accurate.

But then, all you need is "omission" as opposed to "change".

[second_glance]

[quote author=the OlLine Rebel link=topic=42943.msg944923#msg944923 date=1273203145]
[quote author=derbydanx link=topic=42943.msg944848#msg944848 date=1273192624]The film ends with the Belmont Stakes celebration. We get a few sentences along with real life footage of the princples as a post script, but no mention of Big Red's death, or any specifics about his stallion career other than him having 600+ foals.
[/quote]

It ends after the Belmont? Geesh! There are (only) 6 more races to cover! Really, the TC was only the beginning!

This is very "Disney", in the simplistic child-like sense - they treat it like racing stops past the TC (albeit, usually, it stops at the Derby - and also begins there). There is no more racing.
[/quote]

No. They are treating his later career as irrelevant to the particular story they are telling. Which it is, dramatically speaking. The engine for this particular story is Penny's gamble on Secretariat to save the family farm. It's not a bio pic about either Penny or Secretariat.

[curtisw]

[quote author=danziggirl link=topic=42943.msg944772#msg944772 date=1273181571]
"Sham - in the shadow of a superhorse" is well worth a read, too!
[/quote]

Actually the Sham book--pun not intended--had a few too many inaccuracies for my taste.

[moonwalker]

[quote author=Citation07 link=topic=42943.msg944886#msg944886 date=1273196736]

What's the indie film?
[/quote]

There's a movie in the works called "Jock" (if they haven't changed the title) about the first female jockeys. The ending scene is the female jockey race that's happening the day before the Preakness; they're filming it then. Don't know when it will be out.

Also, there is a movie about Julie Krone in the works. I have more info on my Facebook but I can't access it from work. :-(

Mary MMM

[Portofogo]

Clearly, racing fans would rather watch a documentary about Secretariat. But I can assure you that 90 percent of non-racing fans would not watch a docu, no matter how dramatic the real story is. They just want a movie that delivers a couple of hours of good PG entertainment. Disney isn't making the rules, they are a business trying to engage people at the box office. Nothing to get wound up about. It is just a movie, and very likely to be good for horse racing.

[second_glance]

[quote author=Citation07 link=topic=42943.msg944886#msg944886 date=1273196736]
[quote author=second_glance link=topic=42943.msg944567#msg944567 date=1273158967]
Drama is not, and has never been, about factual truths. Good drama is about emotional or cultural truths. (Whether anything Disneyfied is good drama is a whole other question.)

Anyone who wants to know about the real story can always read a book -- or, more likely in this day and time, go online and read one of the scores of blog posts that are sure to be written detailing all the errors in the movie.

Meanwhile, I'm sort of marveling at the fact that in a span of ~7 years, we've had 2 major motion pictures and 1 TV movie made about racehorses and horse racing. With an indie film and a possible HBO series to come. Not bad for a dying sport.
[/quote]

What's the indie film?
[/quote]

"And They're Off"

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...id=13&cs=1

[ManOTaz]

[quote author=luvsgeldings link=topic=42943.msg944493#msg944493 date=1273146808]
oh oh... i am a HUGE Sham fan - did they somehow make sham look like a 'bad guy' in this movie? did Sham get any respect in the movie? i sure hope so - i loved that horse. but thanks derbydanx for the advance info on the film.
[/quote]

I love Sham as well. I think the writers take far too many unnecessary liberties so that they can justify their salaries when it is absolutely unnecessary.

The Seabiscuit movie was the latest example where they suggested that War Admiral was 18 hands...where they had Tobey McGuire's character come out and tell his trainer he was blind in one eye...and there were other absolutely unnecessary liberties taken.

It is sad to see that this seems to be par for the court for Hollywood.

I think what it ends up doing is diminishing the champion - Secretariat...by trying to make him look like some kind of underdog...when in reality...he was anything but...and also by taking artistic license one who does not know his story as many of us do...makes the person think that he was just a creature of Hollywood and they may not appreciate the extent that he really did such amazing things.

It was incredible what Secretariat did...but it was not all that unexpected...just perhaps in the way he did it...

And he was not a God...he was an animal...not winning every race...

I'm certain I'll enjoy the movie as I did Seabiscuit...though was Lucien Lauren really like JOhn Malkovich has been portraying him as kind of an ornery old cuss?

[Citation07]

[quote author=moonwalker link=topic=42943.msg944971#msg944971 date=1273237811]
[quote author=Citation07 link=topic=42943.msg944886#msg944886 date=1273196736]

What's the indie film?
[/quote]

There's a movie in the works called "Jock" (if they haven't changed the title) about the first female jockeys. The ending scene is the female jockey race that's happening the day before the Preakness; they're filming it then. Don't know when it will be out.

Also, there is a movie about Julie Krone in the works. I have more info on my Facebook but I can't access it from work. :-(

Mary MMM
[/quote]

"And They're Off"

http://www.variety.com/article/VR111...id=13&cs=1

Great, thanks for the info! It's always good to see racing get put out there into the mainstream media. I loved Seabiscuit, and I'm really looking forward to Secretariat.

[bort84]

[quote author=Portofogo link=topic=42943.msg944992#msg944992 date=1273241690]
Clearly, racing fans would rather watch a documentary about Secretariat. But I can assure you that 90 percent of non-racing fans would not watch a docu, no matter how dramatic the real story is. They just want a movie that delivers a couple of hours of good PG entertainment. Disney isn't making the rules, they are a business trying to engage people at the box office. Nothing to get wound up about. It is just a movie, and very likely to be good for horse racing.
[/quote]

Exactly.

[ManOTaz]

Now wait a second...you are honestly trying to suggest that omitting Riva Ridge...and making Sham and his connections out to be a villain is absolutely necessary to produce a quality film enjoyable to the public?

I am sorry. I just cannot buy that.

Just as with Seabiscuit...without the poetic license the story was at least as compelling...

Seabiscuit was racing against a Triple Crown winner....60 seconds of dialogue explaining what that meant...would have made the race just as exciting without making War Admiral out to be 18 hands tall.

Red Pollard being able to keep his blindness a secret from his trainer and owner would have been just as compelling as the silly ouburst.

This is why I argue that the poetic license is more an effort to justify a writer's salary than it is any essential addition to the movie story line.

[bort84]

[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=42943.msg945164#msg945164 date=1273258173]
Now wait a second...you are honestly trying to suggest that omitting Riva Ridge...and making Sham and his connections out to be a villain is absolutely necessary to produce a quality film enjoyable to the public?

I am sorry. I just cannot buy that.

Just as with Seabiscuit...without the poetic license the story was at least as compelling...

Seabiscuit was racing against a Triple Crown winner....60 seconds of dialogue explaining what that meant...would have made the race just as exciting without making War Admiral out to be 18 hands tall.

Red Pollard being able to keep his blindness a secret from his trainer and owner would have been just as compelling as the silly ouburst.

This is why I argue that the poetic license is more an effort to justify a writer's salary than it is any essential addition to the movie story line.
[/quote]

Nope. I definitely don't think it's absolutely necessary. But Disney has a lot of experience making movies for the masses and is trying to appeal to everybody. They want Sham to appear to be a huge rival so he won the Wood, just like in Seabiscuit they felt an 18 hand monster was a more fitting villain than a horse of smaller frame.

I don't think either of those edits are necessary to the masses enjoying the film, but I don't make movies either. It is hard to squeeze in everything in 2 hours, so I can see why Riva Ridge was left out, especially if they don't cover Secretariat's season after the TC.

Also, I remember when the movie was first being made that this story was supposed to be seen from a Penny angle with Secretariat as a big part of her life at that point. So it would make sense that they would feel okay glossing over some of those facts.

I think it's hard for us as fans to know what we would prefer if we weren't fans. A lot of people aren't that bothered by slight inaccuracies if it makes the story more entertaining for them. I guess I just can't get that irritated about it because it's pretty par for the course, haha. And it sounds like the movie might be a good thing despite a couple of tweaks.

[second_glance]

[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=42943.msg945164#msg945164 date=1273258173]
Now wait a second...you are honestly trying to suggest that omitting Riva Ridge...and making Sham and his connections out to be a villain is absolutely necessary to produce a quality film enjoyable to the public?

I am sorry. I just cannot buy that.

Just as with Seabiscuit...without the poetic license the story was at least as compelling...

Seabiscuit was racing against a Triple Crown winner....60 seconds of dialogue explaining what that meant...would have made the race just as exciting without making War Admiral out to be 18 hands tall.

Red Pollard being able to keep his blindness a secret from his trainer and owner would have been just as compelling as the silly ouburst.

This is why I argue that the poetic license is more an effort to justify a writer's salary than it is any essential addition to the movie story line.
[/quote]

I'll double-damn guarantee you that whatever problems there are in the script (as you see it) have nothing whatsoever to do with justifying the scriptwriter's salary. Scriptwriters are not free agents: stories are shaped by a bunch of people, script approval ditto.

[Stella19]

[quote author=Portofogo link=topic=42943.msg944992#msg944992 date=1273241690]
Clearly, racing fans would rather watch a documentary about Secretariat. But I can assure you that 90 percent of non-racing fans would not watch a docu, no matter how dramatic the real story is. They just want a movie that delivers a couple of hours of good PG entertainment. Disney isn't making the rules, they are a business trying to engage people at the box office. Nothing to get wound up about. It is just a movie, and very likely to be good for horse racing.
[/quote] I agree with you but I also think that sticking more closely to the actual story instead of choosing an extremely predictable formulaic plot structure (Sham winning the Wood) - wouldn't drive anybody away.

[Funny Bird]

The point of small (yes, small) changes like War Admiral's size, Red's confession of blindness, and Sham winning the Wood is to capture the essence of the story, not tell it exactly.
War Admiral was a "giant" rival, in reputation if not in actual size.
Two of the themes of the Seabiscuit movie are overcoming odds (therefore the needed inclusion of Red's blindness) and the unity of the human characters (hence the need, after the blindness inclusion, for him to share this instead of keeping it a secret as he historically did).
Gary Ross is a screenwriting genius, and Seabiscuit is one of the finer horse racing films.
Making Sham win the Wood (over Secretariat, I'm guessing) streamlines the plot, makes it simpler to set him up as a rival--a dramatic racing scene is a lot easier to write and to communicate the point (rivals) than a lengthy dialogue about that up-and-comer from California who won the blah blah blah by blah lengths.

Neither real life nor books translate well to the screen...things must be changed, but if it's done well, the product, though not 100% factual, still gives an excellent accounting of the feeling and essence of the times and accomplishments of the characters in question...it's a movie, a work of art, not a documentary.

This is why I argue that the poetic license is more an effort to justify a writer's salary than it is any essential addition to the movie story line.

And your experience is...? I'm a (currently starving) writer, friends with an award-winning director and three other writers, one currently homeless. Nobody needs to "justify" our salaries. The above comment is a joke. Poetic license is our right as poets...if you don't like it write a better one.

[horsingaround]

[quote author=ManOTaz link=topic=42943.msg945007#msg945007 date=1273243199]
[quote author=luvsgeldings link=topic=42943.msg944493#msg944493 date=1273146808]
oh oh... i am a HUGE Sham fan - did they somehow make sham look like a 'bad guy' in this movie? did Sham get any respect in the movie? i sure hope so - i loved that horse. but thanks derbydanx for the advance info on the film.
[/quote]

I love Sham as well. I think the writers take far too many unnecessary liberties so that they can justify their salaries when it is absolutely unnecessary.

The Seabiscuit movie was the latest example where they suggested that War Admiral was 18 hands...where they had Tobey McGuire's character come out and tell his trainer he was blind in one eye...and there were other absolutely unnecessary liberties taken.

It is sad to see that this seems to be par for the court for Hollywood.

I think what it ends up doing is diminishing the champion - Secretariat...by trying to make him look like some kind of underdog...when in reality...he was anything but...and also by taking artistic license one who does not know his story as many of us do...makes the person think that he was just a creature of Hollywood and they may not appreciate the extent that he really did such amazing things.

It was incredible what Secretariat did...but it was not all that unexpected...just perhaps in the way he did it...

And he was not a God...he was an animal...not winning every race...

I'm certain I'll enjoy the movie as I did Seabiscuit...though was Lucien Lauren really like JOhn Malkovich has been portraying him as kind of an ornery old cuss?
[/quote]

Part of the difference is that with Seabiscuit, a person unfamiliar with the story had to do some relatively in-depth research in order to discover the inaccuracies, whereas most of Secretariat's life, including the Wood Memorial and Lucien Laurin's height, is well documented on YouTube.