After listening to his interview on 60 Minutes, Mike said that with a win in the BCC, Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever. Obviously this is arguable, but that's the way I see it too.
There.....I got that off my chest. Now let the attacks begin.
Zenyatta fan here, but IMHO no horse that will have raced in open company only twice is "the greatest race horse ever."Originally Posted by MR.W
After listening to his interview on 60 Minutes, Mike said that with a win in the BCC, Zenyatta could go down in history as the greatest racehorse ever. Obviously this is arguable, but that's the way I see it too.
There.....I got that off my chest. Now let the attacks begin.
Greatest filly/mare of modern time (who knows about Kincsem): sure, why not.
Greatest race horse, male or female, of all time? Better than Citation, Native Dancer, Secretariat, Forego, John Henry, Spectacular Bid, Cigar?
My view is the greatest FEMALE in the modern era ... I'll leave the comparison to males to the pundits to mull over. ;-)
Live life, don't just exist it!
How many of Man O' War's races were open company?
All of them, I would assume if you include the age-restricted races he won as a two year old and three year old.
By "open company" in this thread, I am referring to races open to horses of either sex. And thus fillies could have run in any of the age restricted races Man O'War won as a two year old and three year old.
Last I heard, age-restricted races are not considered open company. Open company races are those that a horse of any age or sex can participate in. You can't just change the definition for convenience. It is what it is.
If she wins, I think it may depend how she wins. If she breaks Secretariat's track record it will be hard to argue against her. I know some will still try, but they probably won't have much of an audience.
If she wins I will be shocked!
By the way, wasn't it Mike Smith who had such high praise for Kentucky Derby winner Giacomo until Giacomo was exposed ....
Of course you are correct.
The point, though, is that Zenyatta has ducked competing against the boys for 18 of her 20 races, choosing instead to run against far less capable competition by staying with the filly/mare division, and for that matter, only coming east twice to run against other fillies and mares.
Man O'War's races were all open to fillies (or mares, as the case may be), if they wanted to run.
Looks like Man O'War ran in 7-8 "open company" races in his three year old year (perhaps every race that year other than the Preakness, Belmont and Travers?). Its a little difficult to tell which races that year were open company for him.
Assuming that he ran at least 6 open company races -- which would mean that at age 3, he was running against any older horse that wanted to try him --- that would still be 3 times as many open company races as Zenyatta ran in.
Look, I love Z. She has been handled beautifully by her connections. I am hoping she wins the BCC by open lengths in a blaze of glory.
But I can still be objective.
Z's connections chose a course for her that involved not running against males other than in the BCC, twice. I think that costs her big-time lifttime reputation points (why not the Pacific Classic or Hollywood Gold Cup or Santa Anita Handicap the last couple of years, on synth, against modest male competition? No QR or Blame or Lucky in any of those races).
If she wins Saturday, she is up there with the great males, but not better than, IMHO, Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, among others. Her competition was just not solid enough in enough races to warrant her being placed above horses of that type, at least not in mind.
Just my opinion. Yours may differ, and may be a reasonable opinion as well.
And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.
I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable.
Women are like tea bags, you never know how strong they'll be until they're in hot water. -- Eleanor Roosevelt
Upset was a filly? I don't remember reading that, not that it's incorrect.
ROFLMAO
Yes, of course my opinion that a horse that only races in open company twice may not be the undisputed best horse (male or female) of all time is reasonable. Do you disagree?And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.
I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable.
There is a reason fillies and mares get their own non-open company races to run in.
At longer distances, they run slower than comparable males.
If you believe that Z is one of the best horses of either sex in history, then you have to concede the point that by running against a slower class of two turn runners, fillies and mares, most of Zenyatta's races during her career were nothing more than paid workouts against far slower competition.
Z's connections made the decision early on not to possibly burn Zenyatta out by running her race after race against grueling competition (i.e., Grade I males), where she likely would have had to dig down much deeper to win (e.g., look at what happened to Rachel doing that as a three year old).
So, Z's connections get full credit for spacing her races and picking their spots to keep this wonderful horse fit and happy and healthy and undefeated for three years.
As a result, however, Z does not and should not get credit for winning races that she never ran in. Until Saturday, she will never have run against Grade I boys on dirt. That is a black eye for her when people say she is the best ever, male or female. Any speculation that she would have won more races against the boys had she raced them more often is just that, speculation.
Saturday is a HUGE race for her reputation, IMO. It will be a good field coming into the race in good form, and a dry track, apparently.
If she wins, the argument about where she ranks among all-time greats of either sex can begin. If she loses, well, she is still our favorite and arguably the greatest filly/mare of all time.
Upset was not a filly.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/upset
MOW ran in 2 "totally" open races. That is all - not 6.
Although, 1 of them wasn't "truly" open - it was closed to geldings (the Jockey Club Stk - "Jockey Club Gold Cup"). Otherwise, it was wide open. But no elder horses even entered, much less ran.
And it was a filly who beat Man O'War too.
I'm assuming that by your final sentence you're saying your opinion is reasonable.
Upset was most assuredly NOT a filly.
However, many top fillies did run against MOW, as a 2yo - how times have changed.
ha,ha,ha M.O.W vs Z. what are you guys smoking?
The Belmont was also closed to geldings. Man o' War faced one older horse. The fact that the Jockey Club was closed to geldings is no trivial matter, as it means that Exterminator was excluded. Four days after Man o' War defeated Damask at level weights in the 12f Jockey Club Gold Cup, Exterminator defeated Damask in the 16f Autumn Cup, while conceding 30 lbs. WFA conditions between Man o'War and Exterminator would have been quite a race.
Yeah, that's how I understand it as well. So, the competition-faced argument -- which seems to be the most prominent -- doesn't really hold as a reason Zenyatta doesn't compare to the greats.
Mind you, they're very different. MOW raced many distances, at many tracks and compiled his share of track records at incredible imposts and while being geared down -- not to mention with often very little rest. Which probably had something to do with him not being able to race as a 4YO.
Greatest horse of the past 20-30 years? Sure. But we went over it in the Zenyatta thread a bit, I don't see the purpose or logic in declaring one horse the greatest ever- the sport is so different that there's no way to logically compare horses that are many decades apart, making the whole exercise rather pointless.
However, she'll widely be considered the greatest female racehorse ever if she wins. This much is fact.
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