The Saratoga Double

[Slewbopper]

Whitney and Travers......

Will we ever see it again?

Key To The Mint, Alydar, Java Gold, Easy Goer

It has been 22 years. 3 yos used to run against their elders in the Whitney

It is such a shame that all the big money races for 3 yos have taken over. Would have loved to have seen Bull and Point Given toy with the field but the easy money against their own crop in the Haskell made it an easy decision for the trainers.

And how would this have been for a Whitney if not for the Haskell?.....Java Gold, Sheba, Bet Twice, and Lost Code

[blamethewinner]

Whitney and Travers......

Will we ever see it again?

Key To The Mint, Alydar, Java Gold, Easy Goer

It has been 22 years. 3 yos used to run against their elders in the Whitney

It is such a shame that all the big money races for 3 yos have taken over. Would have loved to have seen Bull and Point Given toy with the field but the easy money against their own crop in the Haskell made it an easy decision for the trainers.

And how would this have been for a Whitney if not for the Haskell?.....Java Gold, Sheba, Bet Twice, and Lost Code

You really think Point Given would have won the Whitney in 2001? Considering how he ran in the Haskell I think he would have been drowned by Lido Palace and Albert the Great.

It's not really a big deal that the 3YOs aren't stepping up to face elders this year since the Whitney should still have a very competitive field and the 3YOs are a rag tag group.

[Secretariat Forever]

You really think Point Given would have won the Whitney in 2001? Considering how he ran in the Haskell I think he would have been drowned by Lido Palace and Albert the Great.

Actually, you're probably right. (except I wouldn't use the term "drowned", even an under the weather PG was hard to beat) Point Given wasn't near 100% in the Haskell, had he chose the Whitney instead he wouldn't have been 100% there either. But the PG we saw in the Preakness, Belmont, and Travers would have given Lido Palace and Albert the Great all they could handle.

[Slewbopper]

Actually, you're probably right. (except I wouldn't use the term "drowned", even an under the weather PG was hard to beat) Point Given wasn't near 100% in the Haskell, had he chose the Whitney instead he wouldn't have been 100% there either. But the PG we saw in the Preakness, Belmont, and Travers would have given Lido Palace and Albert the Great all they could handle.

He would have pissed on them carrying about 118. Lido Palace? Please. Nice horse but no PG

[blamethewinner]

He would have pissed on them carrying about 118. Lido Palace? Please. Nice horse but no PG

He ran in the race with a bar shoe and a missed workout. He conquered the mighty Burning Roma and Touch Tone in the Haskell. That's enough for you to think that he would have beaten Lido Palace and Albert the Great 8 days earlier?

The older horses we've been subjected to over the last few years have made everyone forget horses like Albert the Great and Lido Palace. They would be superstars in the modern game.

The fact that Point Given never faced older horses and won two decidedly mundane versions of the Haskell and Travers is ignored as he's been annointed as a superstar because of his tremendous Preakness/Belmont wins.

[Slewbopper]

He ran in the race with a bar shoe and a missed workout. He conquered the mighty Burning Roma and Touch Tone in the Haskell. That's enough for you to think that he would have beaten Lido Palace and Albert the Great 8 days earlier?

The older horses we've been subjected to over the last few years have made everyone forget horses like Albert the Great and Lido Palace. They would be superstars in the modern game.

The fact that Point Given never faced older horses and won two decidedly mundane versions of the Haskell and Travers is ignored as he's been annointed as a superstar because of his tremendous Preakness/Belmont wins.

Is that MJ Fox in your avatar? If so I assume you have Parlkinson's rather than Alzheimers. Please tell me who was a better horse in 2001? An over the hill TizNow that won the Classic? Sahkee? Or the BCC favorite Aptitude that ran up the track? Albert the Great? He won one G1 race...the JCGC at 3 beating Gander and Vision and Verse.

[Secretariat Forever]

He ran in the race with a bar shoe and a missed workout. He conquered the mighty Burning Roma and Touch Tone in the Haskell. That's enough for you to think that he would have beaten Lido Palace and Albert the Great 8 days earlier?

The older horses we've been subjected to over the last few years have made everyone forget horses like Albert the Great and Lido Palace. They would be superstars in the modern game.

The fact that Point Given never faced older horses and won two decidedly mundane versions of the Haskell and Travers is ignored as he's been annointed as a superstar because of his tremendous Preakness/Belmont wins.

now you're not making sense.

[blamethewinner]

Is that MJ Fox in your avatar? If so I assume you have Parlkinson's rather than Alzheimers. Please tell me who was a better horse in 2001? An over the hill TizNow that won the Classic? Sahkee? Or the BCC favorite Aptitude that ran up the track? Albert the Great? He won one G1 race...the JCGC at 3 beating Gander and Vision and Verse.

Is there really a need to insult me and show your ignorance by not being able to recognize the Breeders' Cup Classic winning trainer from 8 months ago?

You keep changing the target when all I said was that Point Given would not have won the Whitney because of the extenuating circumstances going on with him. You then asked who I thought was better in 2001 when I never said anything about another horse being better than him, just that he would have lost the 2001 Whitney.

[afleetphil]

I did not follow racing much in that time frame for about ten years, yet I keep on hearing people with high regard for Point Given. How good was he.

[Secretariat Forever]

I did not follow racing much in that time frame for about ten years, yet I keep on hearing people with high regard for Point Given. How good was he.

We'll never know.

[Slewbopper]

Is there really a need to insult me and show your ignorance by not being able to recognize the Breeders' Cup Classic winning trainer from 8 months ago?

You keep changing the target when all I said was that Point Given would not have won the Whitney because of the extenuating circumstances going on with him. You then asked who I thought was better in 2001 when I never said anything about another horse being better than him, just that he would have lost the 2001 Whitney.

To answer your question....YES. What are you talking about? What does Al Stall (Blame) have to do with Bobby Frankel (Lido) or Nick Ziti (Albert)?

[Horse's Rear]

I did not follow racing much in that time frame for about ten years, yet I keep on hearing people with high regard for Point Given. How good was he.

Hall of Fame.

[blamethewinner]

To answer your question....YES. What are you talking about? What does Al Stall (Blame) have to do with Bobby Frankel (Lido) or Nick Ziti (Albert)?

Is that MJ Fox in your avatar? If so I assume you have Parlkinson's rather than Alzheimers.

That's what I was addressing. Amazingly, you left out the 2nd part of my post.

[Jeff]

Hall of Fame.

There doesn't seem to be as compelling a reason to take on elders in the Whitney if one has a 3-yo that they want to point to the BC.

The season is not what it used to be. There are no "fall championships" at Belmont Park anymore. There is no HOY title to be won by any "Saratoga Double" winner when that crown will likely go to the BC Classic winner. As for 3-yo champion, winning the Travers may be important, and today's spacing of races by trainers is not one that leans toward running against older horses three weeks earlier as a prep.

[dustino140]

It'll never happen again, mainly because there's no incentive for it to happen again. More money in the Haskell, theoretically an easier field in the Haskell, and arguably the same amount of prestige in the Haskell. It just doesn't make much sense to try and go for the Whitney anymore.

As for if it could happen - absolutely. Anything can happen in this game. Sure, they're two very difficult races to win back-to-back, but heck...good horses do awesome things. I'm running back through some history in my mind, and I think that it could have absolutely happened in 2006, 2001, 1994, and maybe a few other years in between.

[Minersmarq]

Is that MJ Fox in your avatar? If so I assume you have Parlkinson's rather than Alzheimers. Please tell me who was a better horse in 2001? An over the hill TizNow that won the Classic? Sahkee? Or the BCC favorite Aptitude that ran up the track? Albert the Great? He won one G1 race...the JCGC at 3 beating Gander and Vision and Verse.

/\ Fvcktard

[Horse's Rear]

The older horses we've been subjected to over the last few years have made everyone forget horses like Albert the Great and Lido Palace. They would be superstars in the modern game.

I don't think Point Given's tendon would have liked Saratoga (obviously, it did not), but I also don't think Lido Palace could have handled him, even receiving 4 or 5 pounds, and there isn't any realistic way to imagine him getting more than that.

I would guess that our different appraisals of Point Given's ability in part correlate with our different appraisals of Lido Palace's ability. I think Point Given was the better of the two.

[EquineAnne]

You really think folks will remember Blame or his trainer? They'll remember a horse beat Zenyatta but not his name and certainly not his trainer. LOL

Is there really a need to insult me and show your ignorance by not being able to recognize the Breeders' Cup Classic winning trainer from 8 months ago?

[Thinair]

You really think folks will remember Blame or his trainer? They'll remember a horse beat Zenyatta but not his name and certainly not his trainer. LOL

Knowledgable racing fans will remember both.

[Slewbopper]

/\ Fvcktard

You're another of this board's real men of genius.