A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on
the support of Paul.
~George Bernard Shaw
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
~Cicero - 55 BC
Well, if you don't like it - then don't let the door hit ya on the way out.Originally Posted by BARNFOUR
Pshaw! Mott, Pletcher, Terranova - what the hell do they know?!
One thing I am in favor of, however. Don't put a horse on LASIX until it's proven that's it's needed.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans - Betty Talmadge
Peace through strength - Ronald Reagan
Never for the sake of peace and quiet deny your own experience or convictions - Dag Hammarskjold
Political correctness is tyranny with manners. - Charlton Heston
Obama got a Mulligan - but will he still blame Bush?!~ - Ballerina
of course they will
Agree.
I've seen a few arguments from various industry folk in favour of lasix that it puts the horses in danger if you don't allow them to run on it.
Surely if they need drugs to be able to race they shouldn't be racing in the first place?
I'd also expect to see far fewer horses from those voicing an opinion against the ban on lasix, or failing that an admission that they raced horses on lasix that didn't need it.
And to do that you just have to inject some blood into the lungs. Voila instant bleeder... You could only prove that if the vet scopes the horse before the race and then waits right at the finish line to scope again.Pshaw! Mott, Pletcher, Terranova - what the hell do they know?!
One thing I am in favor of, however. Don't put a horse on LASIX until it's proven that's it's needed.
I think - although I might be wrong - that was the reason why they allowed everyone to use Lasix in the first place.
Sea The Stars - perfection in equine form, a horse of a lifetime!
The game is run by the ignorant and the brainless. This is move that is designed to "look good" to the public. See? Look.....we are taking away drugs! It is like the wrist slap suspensions and fines that are also supposed to "look good" to the public.
Wait for the first time a horse comes down the stretch at Saratoga spewing blood out of his mouth in front of the grandstand filled with kiddies.
Wait for the first time a horse bleeds out and dies in front of any grandstand in America.
Wait for all the owners who can no longer afford to race because thier $4,000 claimers can only race 4 times a year.
The trickle down effects on racing will be huge. I can't believe the ignorance demonstrated in this decision.
Everyone come home sound
Come on Rick, why should that happen in the US when it doesn't happen anywhere in the world? But we already discussed this, so moot point to rehash the whole conversation. Greetings from someone who knows that over 300 horses trained and raced Lasix free and had on average four weeks between starts.
Sea The Stars - perfection in equine form, a horse of a lifetime!
Greetings from someone who has owned horses who couldn't even train without Lasix. I remember the pre lasix days very well. New York was the last jurisdicton to allow it.
I can remember hating it as a handicapper. Horses with 40 lifetime starts, running first time on Lasix sometimes "freaked" and ran ungodly times. But after once cycle through, everything evened out.
The European season is very short for and not very hot. Ours runs year round with some horrific racing conditions in the summer months. Let's save this thread and come back and look it over after one summer without any Lasix. There are sure to be some interesting examples to talk about.
I will predict right now that like the syth decision out west, this one will not last forever. Racing is run by knee jerk-jerks.
Everyone come home sound
Can anyone tell me how many horses have "bled out" from EIPH? I'm genuinely curious.
In other countries, they cull severe bleeders. It doesn't impact their industry offensively. And there is thought that some of their conditioning methods may actually reduce the impact of bleeding, allowing them to train out some bleeders.
Virtually every horse bleeds a touch simply from the high impact of the exercise they do. Not every horse needs Lasix to control this. Additionally, Lasix isn't the only option. FLAIR strips reduce bleeding by 40% or more. There are non-drug options to reduce the impacts of bleeding in big ways. Every horse is allowed to use (partially) it because it was a distinct advantage to those who were on it.
As for four races a year, there is additional thought that Lasix, being a diuretic, actually increases recovery time of the body after a big race as the body replenishes the electrolytes and mineral loss. Food for thought.
Hong Kong's rules are the most extreme, and even then...
Essentially all jurisdictions have stats of less than 1% of horses being severe bleeders, enough to show blood at the nostrils.Hong Kong: The Hong Kong Jockey Club, which runs the tracks, licenses owners, trainers and jockeys, makes and administers the rules, and runs the test lab, does not permit Lasix either on race day or in training. There are two categories of "bleeders." If a horse bleeds from the nostrils, it's categorized as an "official bleeder" and cannot race for at least three months, pending an official vet exam. After a third bleeding episode, the horse is barred from racing for life. The second category is a horse that appears to the stewards to have performed below expectations, in which case the stewards can order a vet exam and, if the horse scores a 3 or 4 rating for blood in the trachea, then they're required to have an official vet exam after a track gallop and can't be entered in a race for at least two weeks. In the past five years, Hong Kong reports that 0.5% of all horses were "official bleeders," and another 0.6% were reported as having "substantial blood in the trachea." Over the same time period, just under 1% of the Hong Kong race horse population was compusorily retired because of bleeding.
Last edited by Insane Crazy; 08-13-2011 at 06:28 AM.
And listening to some big out a' town jasper, hearing him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on a horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch?
Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
When the horses here have purses high enough that they can all go at least four weeks between starts,when they are all trained in yards where they get fresh air instead of stables where there is tons of dust and when the economics of the game allow trainers and owners to give horses time off every year like years ago when most horses didn't race twelve straight months a year like they do now........then I say ban lasix.Until that happens lets not do something that is made to 'look good' to the public....like Rick1323 says..
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on
the support of Paul.
~George Bernard Shaw
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
~Cicero - 55 BC
You think horses in Singapore, Hong Kong, and Dubai have yards to train in? HK races year round, train at the tracks, and has one of the strictest bleeder policies of all jurisdictions.
On a total off topic note, when hunting around for whether Lonhro (quite a prolific racer) was on Lasix, I stumbled on this link... http://www.freewebs.com/curlin-vs-jesus/page13.htm
And listening to some big out a' town jasper, hearing him tell about horse-race gamblin'.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on a horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch?
Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
Yes,HK does race year round but their purses are so high that their horses don't race twelve or more months straight like they have to here in the USA.If horses here were able to get time off from serious training there would be fewer bleeding incidents...
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on
the support of Paul.
~George Bernard Shaw
"The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance."
~Cicero - 55 BC
As I understand it, that was the intention of the original regs allowing its use. Then came the perceived performance advantage of horses running on lasix . . . so more trainers/owners got their horses certified as bleeders, and then others perceived they had to do it to stay competitive . . . and, lo and behold, here we are now with, what, 98% or so?, of all horses in the US running on the stuff.Pshaw! Mott, Pletcher, Terranova - what the hell do they know?!
One thing I am in favor of, however. Don't put a horse on LASIX until it's proven that's it's needed.
Perhaps it's also worth noting that trainers who are thriving under the current system shouldn't be expected to be in the vanguard of change.
First rule: Try always to do what's right for the horse. The people part will work out. -- Josh Pons, Merryland, 2007
That's exactly what my experiences were numberwise in Europe. Rick said that my numbers were criminally off and it would be the other way around.
When another poster said that in one meeting (average 100 to 200 starters) maybe one horse finishes in "distress" because of bleeding, Rick didn't believe that either.
And despite popular belief: not all horses are trained at a farm in Europe. We had most of them stabled at the track, in Vienna. Year round. Same thing happens often in Germany. And not in Europe: yeah in Hong Kong etc, they race just like in the US. Same circumstances really.
Our Racing Season was always from April til November. In the winter most horses remained at the track and still continued to train (although of course we did let them down to give em a break). That's the way it should be anyway. Every horse deserves a break at one point in a year. Otherwise you won't end up with a fresh horse, but rather run it into the ground.
Last edited by Kurenai; 08-13-2011 at 06:54 AM.
Sea The Stars - perfection in equine form, a horse of a lifetime!
I don't think the numbers are the other way around at all. The number of serious bleeders is not all that high. But it would be higher here in the summer months. There are horses running today that would not be able to compete June-Sept when most of our big stake races occur. You just don't get the same kind of conditions since your summers tend to be milder.That's exactly what my experiences were numberwise in Europe. Rick said that my numbers were criminally off and it would be the other way around.
When another poster said that in one meeting (average 100 to 200 starters) maybe one horse finishes in "distress" because of bleeding, Rick didn't believe that either.
And despite popular belief: not all horses are trained at a farm in Europe. We had most of them stabled at the track, in Vienna. Year round. Same thing happens often in Germany. And not in Europe: yeah in Hong Kong etc, they race just like in the US. Same circumstances really.
Our Racing Season was always from April til November. In the winter most horses remained at the track and still continued to train (although of course we did let them down to give em a break). That's the way it should be anyway. Every horse deserves a break at one point in a year. Otherwise you won't end up with a fresh horse, but rather run it into the ground.
The other aspect is that I am not talking about stakes horses at all. My home track is Finger Lakes where the average race is for $4,000 claimers. Horses need to run 15 times or so per season to earn thier keep. You can't do that and give them the summer off. Some of them can and do bleed even in cooler weather. You take them all off the track and you can lock the door. There won't be enough horses left to card 2 days a week.
I have only seen one horse bleed out in my lifetime. It was over 20 years ago and happened right in front of the grandstand on a hot summer weekend. They couldn't even get the screen up in time to put the poor animal out of his misery. I promise you it won't take more than one of those kind of examples to make the American racing scene incrediably stupid for this move.
Everyone come home sound
And how exactly would someone go about injecting blood into the lungs? Grab a footlong needle and start stabbing? Push the plunger when you hear air rush out?
Have they tried to manufacture a drug like lasix that doesn't completely dehydrate the animal?
No, because dehydration is the mechanism that allows the drug to do it's job. Blood pressure is reduced because blood volume is reduced from urination. I guess we could try blood letting.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks