Stallion news

[Epiphany]

I'm still not sure why "deals" are preferable to a realistic advertised fee. I realize Big Drama was a champion, but still.

I don't think 22,500 is in the realm of reality for Leroi in Florida either. If he had moved back to KY where he belongs, maybe. More like 15 is what he should stand for even in KY.

But apparently Stonewall still gives away stallion seasons to "approved" graded stakes winners/producers:

Stonewall Incentive Programs

• Guaranteed “No-Guarantee” Program
  Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC will provide a No-Guarantee season at a 50% discount while guaranteeing that if a live foal is not produced, then a complimentary season will be made available the following year to the same stallion.
• Graded Stakes Mare Program
  Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC will provide a one-time complimentary, no-guarantee season to an approved graded stakes winner or graded stakes winner producer.
• Guaranteed Breed-Back Program
  In the event your mare does not produce a live foal after being pronounced in-foal to a Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC stallion, we will issue a complimentary contract for the following year to the same stallion. If your mare dies while in-foal and therefore is unable to be bred another approved mare may be substituted.

[Psychotic Parakeet]

Old news and still overpriced.

He is more fairly priced than Uncle Mo is.

Curious why you feel he is overpriced?

[Epiphany]

He is more fairly priced than Uncle Mo is.

Curious why you feel he is overpriced?

No he isn't. He is an overpriced Gr. 2 type - a crooked, bad footed unsound one to boot - that got lucky in a couple of Gr. 1 races on Poly and turf, and he is in Florida market that will not pay that kind of money to breed a mare that would go in his book IMO.

Mo is a very precocious two year old champion as fast as any two year old in history over the course of a season, which is the single most important factor to commercial breeders...who came back after illness at three to show he was a top miler, with the top BSF. He also sold well, looks the part, and is by a sire that has passed on but that many have hopes for as a sire of a sire, and is almost booked full already at Ashford (a relative statement for them, but still...) so I guess plenty agreed with the fee.

Honestly I think Mo ended up being more like a 30k horse, and was a 40k horse if he had gone to stud last year off BCJ in 2011 market. He was a 50-60k horse in an off the chart market like 06-07, though, if he came in off his BCJ. They ended up at 35k for 2012 based on what they paid for him, and based on creating the perception of a specific value.

Why I am being so long winded when there is no comparison whatsoever between a lightening fast 2 yr old champ by Indian Charlie standing at Ashford in KY for 35k and a Poly turf horse standing in Florida for 8500 (should be 6k) is beyond me;-)

[Epiphany]

I understand he's getting booked, but he's not one who would interest me as I don't know how much of Mo was "real." And if you want to criticize another stallion for unsoundness, you have to point a finger at Mo as well. There were other things going on with that horse than just the mystery liver ailment (and how he contracted it) all throughout this year, and we'll never learn what they all were.

I could point the finger at most stallions as unsound if I wanted to do so, but I didn't bring up Mo in the first place, I just explained why the other horse wasn't worth 8500 in FL and Mo wasn't unreasonable at 35k in KY based on how the bloodstock market values stallions. If you don't get that he was "real", that is your observation and you are entitled to it. I completely disagree, but I do agree and believe that he was not a completely sound horse and had surgery between his 2 and 3 yr old year. Not a big deal, lots of them do, most are some degree of unsound when they are that fast depending on your scale. Repole made it a mystery which didn't serve him or the horse IMO.

Interestingly (or maybe not) as much as I am a fan of Mo, and will predict that he succeeds as a stallion which is what really matters to a breeder I suppose, I would not breed to him based on seeing him at Ashford for 35k. But that has nothing to do with whether I would breed to General Quarters, which I wouldn't do for free.

[halo]

General Quarters is a mystery to me, too, at that price, when you see what else is available in Florida. Sort of like the wacky raise in price for Point Given, like that was deserved. Good luck to them.

[Tappiano]

Well he was more than twice as good as Giant Surprise....

[Market Mover]

I don't think 22,500 is in the realm of reality for Leroi in Florida either. If he had moved back to KY where he belongs, maybe. More like 15 is what he should stand for even in KY.

But apparently Stonewall still gives away stallion seasons to "approved" graded stakes winners/producers:

Stonewall Incentive Programs

• Guaranteed “No-Guarantee” Program
  Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC will provide a No-Guarantee season at a 50% discount while guaranteeing that if a live foal is not produced, then a complimentary season will be made available the following year to the same stallion.
• Graded Stakes Mare Program
  Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC will provide a one-time complimentary, no-guarantee season to an approved graded stakes winner or graded stakes winner producer.
• Guaranteed Breed-Back Program
  In the event your mare does not produce a live foal after being pronounced in-foal to a Stonewall Farm Ocala LLC stallion, we will issue a complimentary contract for the following year to the same stallion. If your mare dies while in-foal and therefore is unable to be bred another approved mare may be substituted.

So if i'm reading the breeding incentives program details right, just take 50% off the stud fee, and that's what I pay as the "No Guarantee" rate, where I have the entire season to jump my mare after fronting this discounted fee, and if a live foal is not produced, I get to come back the next season and do it again?

Then who would, in their right mind, pay the full 100% posted stud fee?

[Epiphany]

So if i'm reading the breeding incentives program details right, just take 50% off the stud fee, and that's what I pay as the "No Guarantee" rate, where I have the entire season to jump my mare after fronting this discounted fee, and if a live foal is not produced, I get to come back the next season and do it again?

Then who would, in their right mind, pay the full 100% posted stud fee?

NG season has to be paid upfront. That is cash you aren't using elsewhere. And no guarantee that you ever get a foal.

Stonewall wants you to pay them the cash up front, though, that is why they offer the deal and probably why they price their stallions the way they do.

[Market Mover]

NG season has to be paid upfront. That is cash you aren't using elsewhere. And no guarantee that you ever get a foal.

Stonewall wants you to pay them the cash up front, though, that is why they offer the deal and probably why they price their stallions the way they do.

Thanks for the clarification. I see the point. Cash up front means cash missing somewhere else, and if you're a small time breeder, that could mean a lot of feed for broodmares.

If a live foal standing and nurses is not produced during this particular no guarantee season after half the stud fee is paid (or stud fee discounted at 50% is paid in full), do you have the entire season the following year to get your mare back to the same stallion or is the breed back a one jump deal?

[Epiphany]

Thanks for the clarification. I see the point. Cash up front means cash missing somewhere else, and if you're a small time breeder, that could mean a lot of feed for broodmares.

If a live foal standing and nurses is not produced during this particular no guarantee season after half the stud fee is paid (or stud fee discounted at 50% is paid in full), do you have the entire season the following year to get your mare back to the same stallion or is the breed back a one jump deal?

You have entire season. But that is no guarantee you will get in to shed at ideal time for your mare's cycle. They got your money, you are down the list, especially if a horse becomes popular, like say Leroi did last breeding season. I'm not saying that is how they run their shed, just sayin' it is something to think about.

[mariasmon]

Speaking of, where do the mares come from who are added to a stallion's book in the middle of breeding season? Like Leroi suddenly got hot when his son won the Derby, but the vast majority of mares are long since booked and/or bred in May. Were these mares people weren't planning to breed, but changed their minds? Were they booked to other stallions at Stonewall and the owners asked if they could switch to Leroi? I don't fully understand how this works. You can't get out of a signed contract unless there's something wrong with the stallion or he's not stopping your mare, right?

[Epiphany]

Speaking of, where do the mares come from who are added to a stallion's book in the middle of breeding season? Like Leroi suddenly got hot when his son won the Derby, but the vast majority of mares are long since booked and/or bred in May. Were these mares people weren't planning to breed, but changed their minds? Were they booked to other stallions at Stonewall and the owners asked if they could switch to Leroi? I don't fully understand how this works. You can't get out of a signed contract unless there's something wrong with the stallion or he's not stopping your mare, right?

Correct. Depends on the relationship, though. Or it could be mares switched by a breeder who was going to use a season to a stallion they own a share or breeding right in.

Always A Princess made Leroi slightly warm earlier in the season before AK won prep and then the Derby. In regional markets, late mares might be on the fence and it isn't as imperative to sign contracts to get in a book, until you are sure that is where you are going.

[Market Mover]

You have entire season. But that is no guarantee you will get in to shed at ideal time for your mare's cycle. They got your money, you are down the list, especially if a horse becomes popular, like say Leroi did last breeding season. I'm not saying that is how they run their shed, just sayin' it is something to think about.

Great point that you brought up about how there is no guarantee that a mare could get into shed at ideal time for her cycle. Let's say the previous year, a broodmare had a late cover in June, the last month of a typical breeding season. She drops her foal in May and it's decided a no guarantee season is purchased for her at a particular farm. If the May-June book for a popular stallion is fairly full, are there certain farms that have a higher rate of difficulty getting late mares in to fulfill NG season purchases?
In other words, would it make sense to wait until later in the breeding season for an already in-foal broodmare to book NG seasons because of this added risk factor? Or would early bookings for certain farms notorious for being very busy in May-June avoid problems with getting "shut out" at the shed so as to not waste a year for an otherwise healthy and open broodmare?

Do any farms stand out in terms of extra handling and care for the new foal while the dam is being serviced in the breeding shed?

[halo]

FWIW, Ive never had a problem getting a mare in when needed. Stallion managers want to get your mare in at the optimum time and bred, so hopefully they don't come back. Ive hauled mares to the shed at midnight before. It is not easy being the one to shuffle mares to a stallion; people who do that have a 24/7 job for 5 months. Ive been called before by a stallion manager, asking me if I can get my mare to the shed in 15 minutes, since another mare cancelled that spot. Im sure stallion managers get called every name in the book when you call to book and they are full for that day. Not a fun job. But I can say every farm Ive dealt with so far has been as accomodating as they can possibly be; Vinery, Stonewall Ocala, Claiborne, Ocala Stud, Bridlewood Farm, all bending over backwards to make it work.

[TBird]

Great point that you brought up about how there is no guarantee that a mare could get into shed at ideal time for her cycle. Let's say the previous year, a broodmare had a late cover in June, the last month of a typical breeding season. She drops her foal in May and it's decided a no guarantee season is purchased for her at a particular farm. If the May-June book for a popular stallion is fairly full, are there certain farms that have a higher rate of difficulty getting late mares in to fulfill NG season purchases?
In other words, would it make sense to wait until later in the breeding season for an already in-foal broodmare to book NG seasons because of this added risk factor? Or would early bookings for certain farms notorious for being very busy in May-June avoid problems with getting "shut out" at the shed so as to not waste a year for an otherwise healthy and open broodmare?

Do any farms stand out in terms of extra handling and care for the new foal while the dam is being serviced in the breeding shed?

It can make sense to wait to book late foaling mares because deals can often be had--even on very good stallions--later in the season. Generally speaking by May and June, books are opening up and scheduling is loosening up. The bulk of the mares have been bred and are settled. The later months are the easiest ones to get your mare in to a stallion when she needs to go because so many fewer mares are still vying for spots. And if a horse has better than expected fertility, it's not unusual for a stallion manager to add new mares to the book at the end of the season.

[Tappiano]

I had put a bid in on an NG season last year in one of the state run auctions but given that I would have to pay for it four months before my mare was going to foal AND there was a chance that if she went late I would only have one chance to get her back in foal I decided against it. Of course the bid was quite a bit lower than what I would have had to pay with a guaranteed foal contract but the money I would have saved would have made it worthwhile. I would not have submitted my mare though until after she had foaled so that way if I could not use the season I would have tried to do a foal share.

It does seem that the later in the season the more availability there is to some of the stallions so I'd think you would be able to get in when you want and need to.

I do have a small discount if I pay for my mare's season by November 1 and that will be dependent upon my financial situation and when she's due. That would essentially reduce the tax due on sperm.

[Jas]

FWIW, Ive never had a problem getting a mare in when needed. Stallion managers want to get your mare in at the optimum time and bred, so hopefully they don't come back. Ive hauled mares to the shed at midnight before. It is not easy being the one to shuffle mares to a stallion; people who do that have a 24/7 job for 5 months. Ive been called before by a stallion manager, asking me if I can get my mare to the shed in 15 minutes, since another mare cancelled that spot. Im sure stallion managers get called every name in the book when you call to book and they are full for that day. Not a fun job. But I can say every farm Ive dealt with so far has been as accomodating as they can possibly be; Vinery, Stonewall Ocala, Claiborne, Ocala Stud, Bridlewood Farm, all bending over backwards to make it work.

Many of the farms are great and Ashford in particular will breed a mare at midnight, but there's been a few times where I've missed cycles because we couldn't get in.

One storied farm in particular can be very hard to time up with their more popular stallions.

Then, of course, there's the stallions who are slow or lazy breeders and one farm actually requires you to send the mare and her foal (if she has one) to stay overnight or for a few days to get her bred because the stallion is so difficult to work with on a schedule.

[halo]

For the last few years, they only scheduled Montbrook for a single breeding a day. He's very slow and takes some real patience if you want to book to him. Fertility doesnt seem to be an issue with him, tho.

[mariasmon]

G2 winner Exhi will stand at T.C. Westmeath Stud Farm in Ontario as a partnership with them, Highfield Stock Farm and Margaux Farm. His fee is $3500 (Canadian).

[Epiphany]

G2 winner Exhi will stand at T.C. Westmeath Stud Farm in Ontario as a partnership with them, Highfield Stock Farm and Margaux Farm. His fee is $3500 (Canadian).

I always liked that horse a lot.