The 12th Triple Crown winner

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a Flying Brick
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 1:50 am

Curtis wrote:Rumor has it that Webster's Dictionary is going to update it's definition of Troll by adding a flying brick. In 1924 it took Nellie Morse 1:57 2/5 to run 1 1/8 miles--not the 1 3/16 miles that it is run currently. What was the point again?
We're all missing the point here I guess. I'm accused of missing the point, and now you're missing the point on Nellie Morse ... it's not to split hairs on a 16th of a mile, but to demonstrate that a lil filly runs about the same awful numbers in the worst weather conditions the guy saw in 40 years of being on the track. What's a generous average for 1 1/8? 1:50? 1:51? and in the worst weather the guy saw in 40 years the filly ran 1:57 and 2/5. AP's Preakness was hardly the worst weather in 40 years, and I don't buy into this weather as a major factor for throwing a 1:58 n 4. THAT's the point.
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Oldowan
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:01 am

a Flying Brick wrote:
Curtis wrote:Rumor has it that Webster's Dictionary is going to update it's definition of Troll by adding a flying brick. In 1924 it took Nellie Morse 1:57 2/5 to run 1 1/8 miles--not the 1 3/16 miles that it is run currently. What was the point again?
We're all missing the point here I guess. I'm accused of missing the point, and now you're missing the point on Nellie Morse ... it's not to split hairs on a 16th of a mile, but to demonstrate that a lil filly runs about the same awful numbers in the worst weather conditions the guy saw in 40 years of being on the track. What's a generous average for 1 1/8? 1:50? 1:51? and in the worst weather the guy saw in 40 years the filly ran 1:57 and 2/5. AP's Preakness was hardly the worst weather in 40 years, and I don't buy into this weather as a major factor for throwing a 1:58 n 4. THAT's the point.
I look forward to your explanation about why his Preakness and Derby--both slow, Derby clearly not his best race, a magnificent training job getting him to peak in the one that really mattered--erases the SECOND FASTEST BELMONT by a Triple Crown winner (remember those?) and the SIXTH FASTEST EVER in 147 years of racing. If he's not worthy because a slop Preakness time disqualifies him, what does that Belmont time get? Two or three commemorative statues?

Ugh, I'm going to bed. It boggles the mind how seeing how tough this feat is--from nipped at the wire (Real Quiet) to breaking down (Charismatic) to assassination (Smarty Jones) to mortal locks becoming way too mortal (Spectacular Bid, Big Brown)--that someone can live through all of that and then, when it FINALLY happens, after he overcomes every new doubt in every race (Derby: wide post, "he's never had to fight"; Preakness: one post, "he's not that good"; Belmont: distance, history, a peaking Frosted who came up next to him looking like a spoiler, "he's just not that good")--how can you claim he was handed the Crown, or didn't earn it, or whatever else? Count Fleet beat TWO HORSES in the Belmont. Who don't even have racing profiles that I can find. Even horses who should have been handed it--no one in the 08 crop could touch Big Brown after we lost Eight Belles--couldn't do it. What don't you get here about this accomplishment?

I mean by your standards, Secretariat doesn't even count because Sham broke down. I mean seriously. What a waste. Looking at all the happiness this horse generated, and all the positive press for the sport, and this is what we get--a troll moaning about a final race time IN THE SLOP, WON HANDILY, WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

I'm done. Going to bed. Enjoying the moment. Truly a great performance. The kind of 12-furlong run we just rarely see. And that's the point, I guess.
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Regret
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:16 am

You're insane. AP's Preakness was won in spectacular fashion. He won by 7 in the absolute slop. You're stretching a bit by saying it had "started raining as the race went off". It was pouring so hard that they evacuated the infield. Get a grip.
May they all com safely home.
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Insane Crazy
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:20 am

Regret wrote:You're insane. AP's Preakness was won in spectacular fashion. He won by 7 in the absolute slop. You're stretching a bit by saying it had "started raining as the race went off". It was pouring so hard that they evacuated the infield. Get a grip.
Rained so hard they had to open the track up after sealing it. There was no other choice. It was a monsoon. It's fine, everyone else acknowledges the track was insane -- a surprisingly few even mention the slow Preakness time because of it. Which is truly a marvel in and of itself, haha.

Once a horse wins a stupidly long classic race the 7th fastest of all 147 total runnings, whatever it took for him to get to the finish line in his previous races doesn't matter to me.
Not a wholesome trottin' race, no, but a race where they sit down right on the horse!
Like to see some stuck-up jockey boy sittin' on Dan Patch? Make your blood boil? Well, I should say!
Ack Ack
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:21 am

Turul wrote:So we are adding a new member to the Club. I was screaming so loud that my cat Zeus hid behind the sofa. I could not believe how easily he opened up and won.

What are everyone's thoughts on the new TC winner?
HaHa, that's exactly what my cats did. :lol:
lurkey mclurker
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:24 am

a Flying Brick wrote:
Curtis wrote:Rumor has it that Webster's Dictionary is going to update it's definition of Troll by adding a flying brick. In 1924 it took Nellie Morse 1:57 2/5 to run 1 1/8 miles--not the 1 3/16 miles that it is run currently. What was the point again?
We're all missing the point here I guess. I'm accused of missing the point, and now you're missing the point on Nellie Morse ... it's not to split hairs on a 16th of a mile, but to demonstrate that a lil filly runs about the same awful numbers in the worst weather conditions the guy saw in 40 years of being on the track. What's a generous average for 1 1/8? 1:50? 1:51? and in the worst weather the guy saw in 40 years the filly ran 1:57 and 2/5. AP's Preakness was hardly the worst weather in 40 years, and I don't buy into this weather as a major factor for throwing a 1:58 n 4. THAT's the point.
No, just... no. That is NOT accurate, by your own link here: http://weblogs.marylandweather.com/2010 ... could.html - the title of which is Worst Preakness weather? Could be 1938

That link is about the 1938 Preakness, not Nellie Morse's 1924 race.

Here is the actual text:
"Daigler recalled that even the Preakness day in 1924 when Nellie Morse [the last filly to win the Preakness until Rachel Alexandra's victory in 2009] waded through a sea of mud to win, was not as bad as this," the Sun's George Dorsch reported.

"... 30,000 rain-soaked, bedraggled fans from all sections of the country, ranging from statesmen to day laborers ... saw William du Pont, Jr.'s Dauber ... win the forty-eighth renewal of the turf classic at Pimlico."

But it wasn't easy. Curtains of rain and mist obscured the backstretch. "Nellie Morse's day did have some sun after the race, but there's no letting up here," Daigler told Dorsch. "I don't know of any worse weather at any time before I became connected with the track." And he had been there for 40 years.
The "here" he's referring to is the 1938 race. Which was run at the current distance, unlike the 1924 race which was shorter. Slop, weather, fine, yes. But still shorter.

For the record, I googled Dauber's winning time, which was 1:59 4/5 for a mile and 3/16. Nellie Morse's time is for a mile and 1/8.

ETA: And Nellie Morse was extraordinary in her own right, hardly just a "lil filly." http://colinsghost.org/2009/05/nellie-m ... -1924.html
Last edited by lurkey mclurker on Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Regret
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:27 am

Insane Crazy wrote:
Regret wrote:You're insane. AP's Preakness was won in spectacular fashion. He won by 7 in the absolute slop. You're stretching a bit by saying it had "started raining as the race went off". It was pouring so hard that they evacuated the infield. Get a grip.
Rained so hard they had to open the track up after sealing it. There was no other choice. It was a monsoon. It's fine, everyone else acknowledges the track was insane -- a surprisingly few even mention the slow Preakness time because of it. Which is truly a marvel in and of itself, haha.

Once a horse wins a stupidly long classic race the 7th fastest of all 147 total runnings, whatever it took for him to get to the finish line in his previous races doesn't matter to me.

Agree with all of the above!
May they all com safely home.
a Flying Brick
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:40 am

Oldowan wrote:
a Flying Brick wrote:
Curtis wrote:Rumor has it that Webster's Dictionary is going to update it's definition of Troll by adding a flying brick. In 1924 it took Nellie Morse 1:57 2/5 to run 1 1/8 miles--not the 1 3/16 miles that it is run currently. What was the point again?
We're all missing the point here I guess. I'm accused of missing the point, and now you're missing the point on Nellie Morse ... it's not to split hairs on a 16th of a mile, but to demonstrate that a lil filly runs about the same awful numbers in the worst weather conditions the guy saw in 40 years of being on the track. What's a generous average for 1 1/8? 1:50? 1:51? and in the worst weather the guy saw in 40 years the filly ran 1:57 and 2/5. AP's Preakness was hardly the worst weather in 40 years, and I don't buy into this weather as a major factor for throwing a 1:58 n 4. THAT's the point.
I look forward to your explanation about why his Preakness and Derby--both slow, Derby clearly not his best race, a magnificent training job getting him to peak in the one that really mattered--erases the SECOND FASTEST BELMONT by a Triple Crown winner (remember those?) and the SIXTH FASTEST EVER in 147 years of racing. If he's not worthy because a slop Preakness time disqualifies him, what does that Belmont time get? Two or three commemorative statues?

Ugh, I'm going to bed. It boggles the mind how seeing how tough this feat is--from nipped at the wire (Real Quiet) to breaking down (Charismatic) to assassination (Smarty Jones) to mortal locks becoming way too mortal (Spectacular Bid, Big Brown)--that someone can live through all of that and then, when it FINALLY happens, after he overcomes every new doubt in every race (Derby: wide post, "he's never had to fight"; Preakness: one post, "he's not that good"; Belmont: distance, history, a peaking Frosted who came up next to him looking like a spoiler, "he's just not that good")--how can you claim he was handed the Crown, or didn't earn it, or whatever else? Count Fleet beat TWO HORSES in the Belmont. Who don't even have racing profiles that I can find. Even horses who should have been handed it--no one in the 08 crop could touch Big Brown after we lost Eight Belles--couldn't do it. What don't you get here about this accomplishment?

I mean by your standards, Secretariat doesn't even count because Sham broke down. I mean seriously. What a waste. Looking at all the happiness this horse generated, and all the positive press for the sport, and this is what we get--a troll moaning about a final race time IN THE SLOP, WON HANDILY, WITHOUT BEING ASKED.

I'm done. Going to bed. Enjoying the moment. Truly a great performance. The kind of 12-furlong run we just rarely see. And that's the point, I guess.
Oldowan, first don't believe everything you hear TV announcers tell you. He DID NOT run 2nd fastest Belmont. Here ... these come before him SECRETARIAT EASY GOER A. P. INDY POINT GIVEN RISEN STAR, then AP, then Affirmed. So let's not slight horses who earned their fractions ... like Easy Goer, and AP Indy and Point Given and Risen Star. No, we don't just skip over them and go right to AP. If you read the threads Secretariat is THE worst example to give in an argument when it comes to AP. When AP breaks all Secretariat's records ... then we can talk. But I can't see talking much about a Preakness that's run in 1:58 n4 and then blame the weather. If he ran that race in 1:58 n 4 then what did the others run it in when THEY crossed the wire? These are Derby figures for a Preakness. Shameful. You can justify it till the cows come home, but until he makes up for that one ... I'm not budgin.

Everyone thinks I'm stuck in the day and age of Secretariat. Ahhhhh No. Tell you what ... you go make a list of the horses that ran in the Derby, Preakness, and Belmont in the last FIVE YEARS ... and tell me what horses AP ran against will even come close to the greatness of those. There were some clunkers, but for the most part they were excellent horses that provided some good competitive racing and outstanding betting opportunities, with no one having a lock on anything and that includes California Chrome. As far as happiness goes, I don't follow horses for happiness. Last year everybody was UNHAPPY cause Chrome didn't win. Boohoo hoo. Ready to change rules. Marching up and down with pitchforks ... we want the triple ... we want the triple. Well, now you got your triple.
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Regret
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:42 am

Flying Brick-- please, please find me a list of races run in rain that hard on a track that sloppy with better fractions that AP ran in the Preakness.
May they all com safely home.
Macaroni
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:48 am

a Flying Brick wrote:Oldowan, first don't believe everything you hear TV announcers tell you. He DID NOT run 2nd fastest Belmont. Here ... these come before him SECRETARIAT EASY GOER A. P. INDY POINT GIVEN RISEN STAR, then AP, then Affirmed. So let's not slight horses who earned their fractions ... like Easy Goer, and AP Indy and Point Given and Risen Star. No, we don't just skip over them and go right to AP. If you read the threads Secretariat is THE worst example to give in an argument when it comes to AP. When AP breaks all Secretariat's records ... then we can talk. But I can't see talking much about a Preakness that's run in 1:58 n4 and then blame the weather. If he ran that race in 1:58 n 4 then what did the others run it in when THEY crossed the wire? These are Derby figures for a Preakness. Shameful. You can justify it till the cows come home, but until he makes up for that one ... I'm not budgin.

Everyone thinks I'm stuck in the day and age of Secretariat. Ahhhhh No. Tell you what ... you go make a list of the horses that ran in the Derby, Preakness, and Belmont in the last FIVE YEARS ... and tell me what horses AP ran against will even come close to the greatness of those. There were some clunkers, but for the most part they were excellent horses that provided some good competitive racing and outstanding betting opportunities, with no one having a lock on anything and that includes California Chrome. As far as happiness goes, I don't follow horses for happiness. Last year everybody was UNHAPPY cause Chrome didn't win. Boohoo hoo. Ready to change rules. Marching up and down with pitchforks ... we want the triple ... we want the triple. Well, now you got your triple.
Good lord, this has been clarified a MILLION times on this board now:
He ran the second fastest Belmont Stakes (after Secretariat) out of the Triple Crown winners, and the 7th fastest Belmont Stakes PERIOD. Regardless, though, are you saying being 7th fastest of 147 is unimpressive? Not even sure why I'm engaging with you. You've clearly proven you have no interest in logic, reason, or fact.
sweettalk
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 2:55 am

after all the failed TC bids, i can't say any horse would be undeserving. it is extremely difficult to pull off, this has been proven more than any of us want to think about.

until you can breed and train your own horse to win the TC, you appreciate it when it happens and keep your pie hole shut. this has gone beyond "unpopular opinion" and into "LOOK AT ME I'M DIFFERENT!!" territory. i think the flying brick may have hit your head.
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Sham
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:11 am

Stop engaging. It's far easier that way.

The Preakness was fun. I was on the infield around the 5/8ths pole. About 45 minutes before the race it started drizzling. Twenty minutes before the race, the deluge started in earnest. I have never, ever been rained on so hard in my life, and it was all going sideways. I strapped my folding chair to my back and kept the front of my body completely dry for a while while I faced away from the stands. The frontal dryness lasted a blissful five minutes before the soaking creeped insidiously through my clothes toward my front half. I somehow managed to keep at least my front half left pocket dry enough that my phone and wallet didn't get soaked. I watched as a half dozen idiot kids tried to make a break for it across the backstretch to the barns ten minutes out before getting stopped by security -- one of the girls in the group got shoved to the track. It was still raining and blowing with the backstretch run and against the stretch when he came by us, ears freaking pricked like he's taking in a garden party.
Soto, Suni, Sham, whichever.
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Big Ten
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:16 am

I generally like the horse but I wouldn't say I am as attached to American Pharoah like other past racehorses. I generally more happy for the connections as they are the ones who will truly feel the happiness and remember the level of this highly difficult accomplishment.

American Pharoah is a worthy Triple Crown winner with a worthy name even if Pharoah is misspelled! I actually didn't even notice it. Maybe I am dyslexic when I see the word pharaoh. Based on what I have seen so far, American Pharoah is not the worst Triple Crown winner based on talent and consistency. I can put him between War Admiral and Whirlaway based on talent. That puts him as the 7th most talented Triple Crown winner behind Sec, Cy, Slew, Affirmed, Count Fleet, and Admiral. He is above 5 other TC winners but it is so hard to compare an 8-race career which isn't finished yet vs the starts of Whirlaway and Assault.

I started to believe after rewatching several of his past races starting from the Del Mar Futurity. It seems he always finds an extra gear on the front amd always opens up by 5+ lengths in the home stretch. The fact he set the pace to have more control of his destiny in the Belmont proves he is everything you can ask for in a horse. Class, speed, and stamina. Tital package. He's the real deal.
Rock Hard Ten. Free House. Soul Of The Matter. Lit de Justice. Zenyatta. Justify. Cigar. Ghostzapper. Lava Man. Silver Charm.
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War Admiral
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:45 am

There will always be a Debbie Downer to spout negative opinions-- even when a horse accomplishes something that no horse has done in nearly 40 years.

Is AP my generations version of Secretariat? Who knows?
He is; however, an amazing horse who has done what other very good horses have tried and failed. I keep watching his Belmont over and over again and each time I am more impressed with him. He actually made it look easy. I was a bit nervous when Frosted started to make his move and I kept thinking "Oh no! Another Birdstone!" But AP just kicked into gear and pulled away to win by 5 and a half lengths. There would be no spoiler this time! We can add the name American Pharoah to the list of TC winners.

Love this horse! I love the way he runs with his ears pricked.
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bare it all
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:49 am

Woke up this morning and he still won - it wasn't a dream!
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Ballerina
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 7:55 am

Actually, it's madding crowd.
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Sham
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:24 am

Ballerina wrote:Actually, it's madding crowd.
Shh, don't enlighten her. :lol:
Soto, Suni, Sham, whichever.
carole
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 8:51 am

I'm glad to have seen a triple crown winner but I feel very underwhelmed :/ I didn't have the same reaction as any of you. When he crossed the wire I thought 'wow' but that was it. Maybe it's because I never truly had my heart invested in this horse (probably because of his owners) but I just don't feel like I should have felt. I hope I do get the same feeling of joy as some of you one day.

ETA: Actually, I realised I have felt that sort of joy before. When Sea The Stars won the Arc. What a special moment!
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Life At Zen
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:06 am

sweettalk wrote: i think the flying brick may have hit your head.
Jesus Christ I nearly spit out my drink at this. Kudos.
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But only once. ~Joe Hirsch
oye vai
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Sun Jun 07, 2015 9:09 am

I also was underwhelmed with AP, but I think he is still very deserving to be a TC winner. Do I wish he had some horse to test him? Sure, but you can't knock AP for that.

That being said, I don't think any horse would have beaten him today. He ran lights out! Very impressive!
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