Santa Anita 2019

stark
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:02 pm

Anybody else as confused as I am that whole bunch of horses worked over the main SA track today?

http://www.equibase.com/static/workout/ ... A-EQB.html
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Gemini
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:07 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:29 pm
Interesting thread...

Drayden VanDyke @DraydenV
2h2 hours ago
Replying to @kaitlinefree
Not the surface. the quality of horses. Surface is good might be a tad hard but not the main problem trust me I’m on it
https://twitter.com/DraydenV/status/1106230356158513152
So by that line of reasoning, Battle of Midway and Amboselli broke down because they were low quality? He should have thought about what he said.
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Sparrow Castle
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 pm

Santa Anita Will Not Open on the 22nd
After a meeting Friday between representatives of The Stronach Group (TSG) and various stakeholders, Santa Anita management has decided not to re-open the track for live racing Mar. 22 as scheduled.

The reason, said California Thoroughbred Trainers (CTT) executive director Alan Balch, was an inability to reach agreement on their plan to ban Lasix. “We had a lengthy, serious and frank exchange of views on Lasix, because we believe very strongly that the administration of Lasix is in the interest of the welfare of the horse,” said Balch.

No news has yet been given as to a possible re-scheduled opening date at Santa Anita.

At the meeting, said Balch, were representatives for the TSG, CTT, the Thoroughbred Owners of California, California Horse Racing Board equine medical director Rick Arthur, the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium executive director, Dionne Benson, and Darrell Haire of the Jockey’s Guild.
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/sa ... -the-22nd/
Tessablue
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 pm

Its just going to keep getting dumber, isn't it?

This:
While some declined to comment, one trainer speaking off the record suggested a sinister motive behind the Lasix ban. The thought was it would finish off racing in a prime Southern California neighborhood.


“I don’t think this is about horse racing. I think it’s a real estate play,” the trainer said.
from https://www.drf.com/news/santa-anita-tr ... -ban?type=, is not looking terribly far-fetched at the moment.
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Dusty
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Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:41 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:23 pm
Santa Anita Will Not Open on the 22nd
After a meeting Friday between representatives of The Stronach Group (TSG) and various stakeholders, Santa Anita management has decided not to re-open the track for live racing Mar. 22 as scheduled.

The reason, said California Thoroughbred Trainers (CTT) executive director Alan Balch, was an inability to reach agreement on their plan to ban Lasix. “We had a lengthy, serious and frank exchange of views on Lasix, because we believe very strongly that the administration of Lasix is in the interest of the welfare of the horse,” said Balch.

No news has yet been given as to a possible re-scheduled opening date at Santa Anita.

At the meeting, said Balch, were representatives for the TSG, CTT, the Thoroughbred Owners of California, California Horse Racing Board equine medical director Rick Arthur, the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium executive director, Dionne Benson, and Darrell Haire of the Jockey’s Guild.
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/sa ... -the-22nd/

Never should have made the LASIX move without the horsemen involved PLUS announcing without their input and discussion - I am just stunned - and I have a headache..DAMN
May they run with the WIND
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Sparrow Castle
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:07 am

Tessablue and Dusty, I've heard that theory from quite a few people now. Yet, it seems so crazy that TSG would say they're delaying opening the track for racing because they can't reach agreement with the horsemen's groups over that single issue, if indeed that'is the real reason for the delay.

How many years have we been discussing the lasix issue with no consensus? Did TSG really think they can just enact this controversial rule by executive order and ban it immediately? Wouldn't the better strategy be to announce that lasix will be banned, at a date to be determined through input with all affected parties? There are so many good things they're proposing, is this worth falling on the sword for?

I'm not fond of conspiracy theories in general, but I do think they are playing into such thoughts by the way they're handling all this. Even many lasix ban supporters have proposed a phase in. I just can't make sense of it and, yeah, it gives me a headache too!

Lasix Will Be Allowed at Del Mar Meets
The Del Mar Thoroughbred Club will not ban Lasix at its two meets in 2019, track CEO Joe Harper told the Thoroughbred Daily News.

The continued use of Lasix at all California tracks became a major issue after Santa Anita announced Thursday that it planned to ban the use of all race day medications. The medication ban, plus several other measures designed to make racing safer at Santa Anita, came about after the 22nd horse was euthanized this meet, which began Dec. 26.

While Harper said he thought Santa Anita was “on the right track” and that Del Mar could implement many of the changes Santa Anita will enact when it re-opens, he said a ban of Lasix will not be one of them.

“Yes, I do see that,” Harper said when asked if Del Mar’s Lasix regulations will remain the same as they were in 2018. “In this meeting I just came out of, it was clear that the vets in there were saying Lasix has nothing to do with these breakdowns. I think this is something where we need to keep sitting down with horsemen and see if there is any common ground. With the CHRB rules and regulations, any changes in medication policy have to be approved by the horsemen before taking it to the Racing Board. The Lasix issue is always going to be a negotiating point because the horsemen feel very strongly about it. It’s basically a therapeutic drug, approved for use. Even the AAEP okays it. So I think eliminating Lasix is something the horsemen do not want.”
More: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/la ... mar-meets/
Tessablue
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:45 am

Yeah, Occam's Razor states that they are just reacting wildly to everything without thinking. It's just reaching such absurd heights at such a rapid pace that it would feel parodical if it weren't for, you know, all those dead horses.

I mean, they're aware that the horses are still going to bleed, right? There are practices in other countries to prevent it, and our horses and trainers can't just switch overnight. What will they have left to ban when a horse collapses in front of the stands?

Oh, and I didn't catch it if anyone answer earlier- do horses typically work on Lasix?
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Treve
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:07 am

I am for the ban, but definitely not enacted/implemented like this.
A filly named Ruffian...

Eine Stute namens Danedream...

Une pouliche se nommant Trêve...

Kincsem nevű kanca...


And a Queen named Beholder
Somnambulist
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:26 am

Tessablue wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 pm
Its just going to keep getting dumber, isn't it?

This:
While some declined to comment, one trainer speaking off the record suggested a sinister motive behind the Lasix ban. The thought was it would finish off racing in a prime Southern California neighborhood.


“I don’t think this is about horse racing. I think it’s a real estate play,” the trainer said.
from https://www.drf.com/news/santa-anita-tr ... -ban?type=, is not looking terribly far-fetched at the moment.
Isn't SA protected by being some type of historical site?
"Life's no piece of cake, mind you, but the recipe's my own to fool with."
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Sparrow Castle
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:56 am

Tessablue wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:45 am
Yeah, Occam's Razor states that they are just reacting wildly to everything without thinking. It's just reaching such absurd heights at such a rapid pace that it would feel parodical if it weren't for, you know, all those dead horses.

I mean, they're aware that the horses are still going to bleed, right? There are practices in other countries to prevent it, and our horses and trainers can't just switch overnight. What will they have left to ban when a horse collapses in front of the stands?

Oh, and I didn't catch it if anyone answer earlier- do horses typically work on Lasix?
Speaking from my experience, some do and some don't. Most horses in our barn don't work on Lasix unless and until they have shown the need for it, like because of previous bleeding during a work or bleeding badly during a race. We had a mare once who bled so bad during a race, coming back she could hardly breathe, very scary for her and for us. She had raced many times before with no problem, but it was an unseasonably hot day early in the season and lordy it was bad, not just the blood but the wheezing/gasping and fear in her eyes too. Never want to see that again.

Our trainers use Lasix to protect their lungs from damage due to bleeding and, thankfully, the need to work on Lasix doesn't happen a lot. But it's all individualized according to the needs of the specific horses. Can't speak for the mega-trainers though.
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Miss Gladiator
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:15 am

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:07 am
Tessablue and Dusty, I've heard that theory from quite a few people now. Yet, it seems so crazy that TSG would say they're delaying opening the track for racing because they can't reach agreement with the horsemen's groups over that single issue, if indeed that'is the real reason for the delay.

How many years have we been discussing the lasix issue with no consensus? Did TSG really think they can just enact this controversial rule by executive order and ban it immediately? Wouldn't the better strategy be to announce that lasix will be banned, at a date to be determined through input with all affected parties? There are so many good things they're proposing, is this worth falling on the sword for?

I'm not fond of conspiracy theories in general, but I do think they are playing into such thoughts by the way they're handling all this. Even many lasix ban supporters have proposed a phase in. I just can't make sense of it and, yeah, it gives me a headache too!
While I agree the way they did it was less than... I actually can't find a word, it's a mess -- I'm not sure asking the horsemen would have make a real difference? As you said it's not the first time the issue was raised. Some people would have said yes, some would have said "hell no", and the rest would have gone "maybe buuuut", and then they would all endlessly discuss it without reaching any consensus and make any decision whatsoever.

That said I'm not surprised. I'm ready to watch the whole thing blow over like a terrible soufflé. Urgh.
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Dusty
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:28 am

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:07 am
Tessablue and Dusty, I've heard that theory from quite a few people now. Yet, it seems so crazy that TSG would say they're delaying opening the track for racing because they can't reach agreement with the horsemen's groups over that single issue, if indeed that'is the real reason for the delay.

How many years have we been discussing the lasix issue with no consensus? Did TSG really think they can just enact this controversial rule by executive order and ban it immediately? Wouldn't the better strategy be to announce that lasix will be banned, at a date to be determined through input with all affected parties? There are so many good things they're proposing, is this worth falling on the sword for?

I'm not fond of conspiracy theories in general, but I do think they are playing into such thoughts by the way they're handling all this. Even many lasix ban supporters have proposed a phase in. I just can't make sense of it and, yeah, it gives me a headache too!

Lasix Will Be Allowed at Del Mar Meets
The Del Mar Thoroughbred Club will not ban Lasix at its two meets in 2019, track CEO Joe Harper told the Thoroughbred Daily News.

The continued use of Lasix at all California tracks became a major issue after Santa Anita announced Thursday that it planned to ban the use of all race day medications. The medication ban, plus several other measures designed to make racing safer at Santa Anita, came about after the 22nd horse was euthanized this meet, which began Dec. 26.

While Harper said he thought Santa Anita was “on the right track” and that Del Mar could implement many of the changes Santa Anita will enact when it re-opens, he said a ban of Lasix will not be one of them.

“Yes, I do see that,” Harper said when asked if Del Mar’s Lasix regulations will remain the same as they were in 2018. “In this meeting I just came out of, it was clear that the vets in there were saying Lasix has nothing to do with these breakdowns. I think this is something where we need to keep sitting down with horsemen and see if there is any common ground. With the CHRB rules and regulations, any changes in medication policy have to be approved by the horsemen before taking it to the Racing Board. The Lasix issue is always going to be a negotiating point because the horsemen feel very strongly about it. It’s basically a therapeutic drug, approved for use. Even the AAEP okays it. So I think eliminating Lasix is something the horsemen do not want.”
More: http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/la ... mar-meets/
CHRB sets the rules in racing in California - NOT TSG - which is part of the issue - Harper is right - this has been handled BADLY bad situation
May they run with the WIND
WildAgainFan74
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:31 am

Lasix should absolutely be banned. If a horse needs lasix than they shouldn’t run. I raced a lot of horses with a lot of trainers in different states. Everyone knows lasix is a performance enhancer and horses are put on it whether they need it or not. It’s Bullshit. That part about being best for the horses is Bullshit too. The problem is we have bred far to many horses that bleed and the fear is that field sizes will plummet without lasix. We need to get rid of it. The rest of the world races without lasix and they do just fine. Don’t you think it’s weird that the European horses race without lasix their whole careers but when they come for Breeders Cup they get lasix? They didn’t become bleeders overnight. I have felt very passionate about this since I first started racing. All race day drugs should be banned just like the rest of the world. Period. End of story.

Do I think the SA lasix thing is a distraction from saying the track sucks? Yes. But, I’m happy they banned it. Now, we’ll see if they ban it at their other tracks since they suddenly care so much for the horses....
stark
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:10 am

WildAgainFan74 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:31 am
Do I think the SA lasix thing is a distraction from saying the track sucks? Yes. But, I’m happy they banned it. Now, we’ll see if they ban it at their other tracks since they suddenly care so much for the horses....
I'm pretty certain nothing has been banned yet.
What we've all been privy to is Belinda's wish list.
But that's a far cry from implementation or "effective immediately"
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
stark
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 10:15 am

Del Mar and now Los Alamitos are on the same page (there's not Belinda's)

Lasix will continue to be allowed at the current year-round Los Alamitos Quarter Horse Racing Association meeting as well as during the upcoming Los Alamitos Racing Association Summer Thoroughbred Meet opening on Thursday, June 27, according to a statement published early Saturday morning by Ed Allred.

Allred is the day-to-day manager of the Los Alamitos Quarter Horse Racing Association meet and overseer of the Thoroughbred race meets.

“I believe that the continued use of Lasix is in the best interest of the horses and as such is a major contributor to the safety of the industry’s human and equine athlete. I shudder to think of the consequences to racehorses and their riders if Lasix was banned,” said Allred in the statement.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/la ... bs.twitter
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Tessablue
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:02 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:56 am
Tessablue wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:45 am
Yeah, Occam's Razor states that they are just reacting wildly to everything without thinking. It's just reaching such absurd heights at such a rapid pace that it would feel parodical if it weren't for, you know, all those dead horses.

I mean, they're aware that the horses are still going to bleed, right? There are practices in other countries to prevent it, and our horses and trainers can't just switch overnight. What will they have left to ban when a horse collapses in front of the stands?

Oh, and I didn't catch it if anyone answer earlier- do horses typically work on Lasix?
Speaking from my experience, some do and some don't. Most horses in our barn don't work on Lasix unless and until they have shown the need for it, like because of previous bleeding during a work or bleeding badly during a race. We had a mare once who bled so bad during a race, coming back she could hardly breathe, very scary for her and for us. She had raced many times before with no problem, but it was an unseasonably hot day early in the season and lordy it was bad, not just the blood but the wheezing/gasping and fear in her eyes too. Never want to see that again.

Our trainers use Lasix to protect their lungs from damage due to bleeding and, thankfully, the need to work on Lasix doesn't happen a lot. But it's all individualized according to the needs of the specific horses. Can't speak for the mega-trainers though.
Thank you for the informative response! So I suppose we could say that even if Lasix contributes to injury- which by research and veterinary consensus it does not- these most recent changes would do nothing to impact morning workouts, which have accounted for nine of the last twelve fatalities.

I suppose it's a good way to change the conversation though, we really can't resist having a good fight over Lasix.
luvsgeldings
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:08 pm

if anyone is interested.... Jay Privman's radio show is archived I am pretty sure. Thoroughbred Los Angeles. the last two weeks he has had some pretty interesting comments regarding things at santa anita. this morning, he and Brad Free (from DRF) both mentioned Jeremy Balan and it was wonderful. they also talked about the recent ban on meds at santa anita. last week Privman went off on santa anita mgmt. loved every minute of it.

I applaud both Privman and Free for having the guts to speak up about things going on at santa anita. it was refreshing and I loved hearing it. agreed with both of them. just glad to hear them speak up. bravo!!
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Sparrow Castle
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 pm

Thanks for the tip, luvsgeldings. That radio show was good to hear!
Hopefully this link works for those who want to listen. http://www.thoroughbredla.com/archives/TBLA20190316.mp3

For the record, I've said here many times that I have mixed feelings about the use of Lasix. I've seen its benefits, and I believe it's been misused. I think it's been proven that frequent and excessive bleeding in horses damages their lungs.

For those who think if a horse bleeds they shouldn't race, you might as well call for the end of racing horses. Bleeding during maximum exertion is not a rare or recent thing for horses. Prior to the legal use of Lasix, it was handled differently, eg withholding water, etc. I'm sure horsepeople in countries where it is illegal have developed similar ways to handle bleeding in their horses. Sometimes, bleeding isn't controlled well even with the use of Lasix and adjunct drugs. I could agree that those horses perhaps shouldn't race.

My objection with these "track" rules is the implementation of a ban. If you must ban Lasix, phase it in so the horses currently racing can finish their careers without the distress and damage caused by bleeding and trainers can learn to manage without Lasix.

It looks like there is some agreement on this:

Santa Anita to re-open Friday after TOC, Stronach Group agree to deal; Lasix ban begins with next year's 2yos
http://live.drf.com/nuggets/47358-santa ... ear-s-2yos
Tessablue
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:30 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 pm
Thanks for the tip, luvsgeldings. That radio show was good to hear!
Hopefully this link works for those who want to listen. http://www.thoroughbredla.com/archives/TBLA20190316.mp3

For the record, I've said here many times that I have mixed feelings about the use of Lasix. I've seen its benefits, and I believe it's been misused. I think it's been proven that frequent and excessive bleeding in horses damages their lungs.

For those who think if a horse bleeds they shouldn't race, you might as well call for the end of racing horses. Bleeding during maximum exertion is not a rare or recent thing for horses. Prior to the legal use of Lasix, it was handled differently, eg withholding water, etc. I'm sure horsepeople in countries where it is illegal have developed similar ways to handle bleeding in their horses. Sometimes, bleeding isn't controlled well even with the use of Lasix and adjunct drugs. I could agree that those horses perhaps shouldn't race.

My objection with these "track" rules is the implementation of a ban. If you must ban Lasix, phase it in so the horses currently racing can finish their careers without the distress and damage caused by bleeding and trainers can learn to manage without Lasix.

It looks like there is some agreement on this:

Santa Anita to re-open Friday after TOC, Stronach Group agree to deal; Lasix ban begins with next year's 2yos
http://live.drf.com/nuggets/47358-santa ... ear-s-2yos
I wish everyone could see the issue with this much nuance. I'm really bothered by the idea that we should withdraw therapy for bleeding, which is a physiological fact of racehorses, then cull the horses who experience distress. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure other countries still use water withdrawal to control bleeding. There were some papers on it a few years back; I'll try to find them.

The 2yo thing sounds like a reasonable compromise, even if it's likely to go the way of the BC 2yo ban. If only there was some way for them to have avoided all this embarrassment... and the public relations hit from retracting a plan that appears to have been widely celebrated in less-informed circles.
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Sparrow Castle
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Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:03 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:30 pm
Sparrow Castle wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 4:19 pm
Thanks for the tip, luvsgeldings. That radio show was good to hear!
Hopefully this link works for those who want to listen. http://www.thoroughbredla.com/archives/TBLA20190316.mp3

For the record, I've said here many times that I have mixed feelings about the use of Lasix. I've seen its benefits, and I believe it's been misused. I think it's been proven that frequent and excessive bleeding in horses damages their lungs.

For those who think if a horse bleeds they shouldn't race, you might as well call for the end of racing horses. Bleeding during maximum exertion is not a rare or recent thing for horses. Prior to the legal use of Lasix, it was handled differently, eg withholding water, etc. I'm sure horsepeople in countries where it is illegal have developed similar ways to handle bleeding in their horses. Sometimes, bleeding isn't controlled well even with the use of Lasix and adjunct drugs. I could agree that those horses perhaps shouldn't race.

My objection with these "track" rules is the implementation of a ban. If you must ban Lasix, phase it in so the horses currently racing can finish their careers without the distress and damage caused by bleeding and trainers can learn to manage without Lasix.

It looks like there is some agreement on this:

Santa Anita to re-open Friday after TOC, Stronach Group agree to deal; Lasix ban begins with next year's 2yos
http://live.drf.com/nuggets/47358-santa ... ear-s-2yos
I wish everyone could see the issue with this much nuance. I'm really bothered by the idea that we should withdraw therapy for bleeding, which is a physiological fact of racehorses, then cull the horses who experience distress. For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure other countries still use water withdrawal to control bleeding. There were some papers on it a few years back; I'll try to find them.

The 2yo thing sounds like a reasonable compromise, even if it's likely to go the way of the BC 2yo ban. If only there was some way for them to have avoided all this embarrassment... and the public relations hit from retracting a plan that appears to have been widely celebrated in less-informed circles.
Thanks, Tessablue. I think we both work in fact-based fields, and have learned to identify and tune out the noise. I would love to learn more about how trainers in other countries handle bleeding. Likely that's an issue where improvement should occur.
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