Article in New York Times states Justify failed a drug test before the Derby

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Katewerk
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:11 pm

Ziggypop wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am

By all means, he blames the messenger.
It's the New York Times. It's not an unreasonable position.
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CoronadosQuest
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:43 pm

Catalina wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:36 am
djnorth wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:27 pm
Stupid question. Have any of the other trainers and/ or horses with scopolamine positives at the same time as Justify been identified? It may have been obvious in the articles but I can't recall seeing it.

Especially if the levels were comparable, how were these cases handled?

Thanks so much.
And, were they all Baffert horses? Not sure how obtaining hay and straw is handled at a track. Presumably the high rollers would have their own trusted suppliers, and the less top drawer horses could get "standard" quality through the track?
They were not unless Baffert has 4 different barns at Santa Anita

https://edition.pagesuite.com/popovers/ ... 093c&v=sdk
Chuck Winner, who was the chairman of the CHRB at the time, on Thursday cited “overwhelming evidence that Justify, along with six other horses in four different barns at Santa Anita, ingested scopolamine from jimson weed which was present in the hay that had been delivered to the barns.”
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Charlie
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 pm

CoronadosQuest wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:43 pm
Catalina wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:36 am
djnorth wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:27 pm
Stupid question. Have any of the other trainers and/ or horses with scopolamine positives at the same time as Justify been identified? It may have been obvious in the articles but I can't recall seeing it.

Especially if the levels were comparable, how were these cases handled?

Thanks so much.
And, were they all Baffert horses? Not sure how obtaining hay and straw is handled at a track. Presumably the high rollers would have their own trusted suppliers, and the less top drawer horses could get "standard" quality through the track?
They were not unless Baffert has 4 different barns at Santa Anita

https://edition.pagesuite.com/popovers/ ... 093c&v=sdk
Chuck Winner, who was the chairman of the CHRB at the time, on Thursday cited “overwhelming evidence that Justify, along with six other horses in four different barns at Santa Anita, ingested scopolamine from jimson weed which was present in the hay that had been delivered to the barns.”
But what confuses me is the amount he had in his system? Like 300 ng/ml is a lot for contamination. even if it was "accidental" it was still over the limit and he should have been DQed

Did the other horses have such high levels?
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Curtis
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm

Charlie wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 pm
CoronadosQuest wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:43 pm
Catalina wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:36 am


And, were they all Baffert horses? Not sure how obtaining hay and straw is handled at a track. Presumably the high rollers would have their own trusted suppliers, and the less top drawer horses could get "standard" quality through the track?
They were not unless Baffert has 4 different barns at Santa Anita

https://edition.pagesuite.com/popovers/ ... 093c&v=sdk
Chuck Winner, who was the chairman of the CHRB at the time, on Thursday cited “overwhelming evidence that Justify, along with six other horses in four different barns at Santa Anita, ingested scopolamine from jimson weed which was present in the hay that had been delivered to the barns.”
But what confuses me is the amount he had in his system? Like 300 ng/ml is a lot for contamination. even if it was "accidental" it was still over the limit and he should have been DQed

Did the other horses have such high levels?
It’s not a slam dunk that he would have been DQ’d due to the possibility of mitigating circumstances. Even if Justify was DQ’d it most likely would have taken months. Churchill Downs then can say he was allowed in their Derby because at that time, he had earned the necessary points. I’d like to see actual verification that he came up clean after all three TC races.
KatieK101
Posts: 147
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:07 pm

Curtis wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Charlie wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 pm
CoronadosQuest wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:43 pm


They were not unless Baffert has 4 different barns at Santa Anita

https://edition.pagesuite.com/popovers/ ... 093c&v=sdk

But what confuses me is the amount he had in his system? Like 300 ng/ml is a lot for contamination. even if it was "accidental" it was still over the limit and he should have been DQed

Did the other horses have such high levels?
It’s not a slam dunk that he would have been DQ’d due to the possibility of mitigating circumstances. Even if Justify was DQ’d it most likely would have taken months. Churchill Downs then can say he was allowed in their Derby because at that time, he had earned the necessary points. I’d like to see actual verification that he came up clean after all three TC races.
If I’m not mistaken, Baffert called for the three tracks to release Justify’s test results in his statement.
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Curtis
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:26 pm

KatieK101 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:07 pm
Curtis wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm
Charlie wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 pm


But what confuses me is the amount he had in his system? Like 300 ng/ml is a lot for contamination. even if it was "accidental" it was still over the limit and he should have been DQed

Did the other horses have such high levels?
It’s not a slam dunk that he would have been DQ’d due to the possibility of mitigating circumstances. Even if Justify was DQ’d it most likely would have taken months. Churchill Downs then can say he was allowed in their Derby because at that time, he had earned the necessary points. I’d like to see actual verification that he came up clean after all three TC races.
If I’m not mistaken, Baffert called for the three tracks to release Justify’s test results in his statement.
Yeah but did they?
KatieK101
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:03 pm

Curtis wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:26 pm
KatieK101 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:07 pm
Curtis wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm

It’s not a slam dunk that he would have been DQ’d due to the possibility of mitigating circumstances. Even if Justify was DQ’d it most likely would have taken months. Churchill Downs then can say he was allowed in their Derby because at that time, he had earned the necessary points. I’d like to see actual verification that he came up clean after all three TC races.
If I’m not mistaken, Baffert called for the three tracks to release Justify’s test results in his statement.
Yeah but did they?
Not that I know of. I wasn’t saying that to defend him, just that we could actually see those records soon.
MySaladDays
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:45 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:53 pm
Meanwhile, Eric Guillot on twitter is still openly wondering if he can use the related substance Buscopan and just blame it on the hay...


Precious! :lol:
MySaladDays
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Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:49 pm

KatieK101 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:07 pm

If I’m not mistaken, Baffert called for the three tracks to release Justify’s test results in his statement.

No offense to anyone here, but would most even know or understand how to read test results, and all the ins and outs ....... you do realize about half-lifes of certain substances in plasma/blood as compared to urine........

...... and that passing a test doesn't mean you're clean........if you don't believe that statement just research thru world anti doping website and US anti doping website...passing a test doesn't mean not using

THIS is precisely why epople are always trying to come up with ways to PASS TESTS.


This whole thing needs some very serious investigation, by forensic equine pharmacologists and not tried in the court of the public opinion of race fans and junky press releases from chrb and baffert. Dr. arthurs statements about blood testing and urine testing, him saying basing outcome on urine is irresponsbile yet the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities residue thresholds on which all testing is based, uses nonograms per millileter in URINE !!!

This is actually very serious problems here and really, calls for a thorough investigation

Racing fans should care about this and want the truth.


The IFHA derive their residue limits based on urine, not plasma/blood (I suspect because 1/2 life in plasma is very short). Justify had low blood readings but very high urine readings.

Yet Dr. Arthur seems to be saying that going by urine levels is irresponsible. This upset me.
stark
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Location: SoCal

Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:17 am

LA TImes conducting a poll, preliminary results in with just 180 votes so far.....

What do you think of the Justify situation?

This is much ado about nothing. 28% 50 votes

The CHRB did nothing wrong but could have handled it better? 28% 51 votes

The CHRB was doing Bob Baffert a special favor. 19% 34 votes

The results of the test should have been made public immediatley 21% 37 votes

He should not have been allowed to run in the Ky. Derby. 4% 8 votes

180 Total Votes

What say you? Need another category or two?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
KatieK101
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:23 pm

Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:16 pm

MySaladDays wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:49 pm
KatieK101 wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:07 pm

If I’m not mistaken, Baffert called for the three tracks to release Justify’s test results in his statement.

No offense to anyone here, but would most even know or understand how to read test results, and all the ins and outs ....... you do realize about half-lifes of certain substances in plasma/blood as compared to urine........

...... and that passing a test doesn't mean you're clean........if you don't believe that statement just research thru world anti doping website and US anti doping website...passing a test doesn't mean not using

THIS is precisely why epople are always trying to come up with ways to PASS TESTS.


This whole thing needs some very serious investigation, by forensic equine pharmacologists and not tried in the court of the public opinion of race fans and junky press releases from chrb and baffert. Dr. arthurs statements about blood testing and urine testing, him saying basing outcome on urine is irresponsbile yet the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities residue thresholds on which all testing is based, uses nonograms per millileter in URINE !!!

This is actually very serious problems here and really, calls for a thorough investigation

Racing fans should care about this and want the truth.


The IFHA derive their residue limits based on urine, not plasma/blood (I suspect because 1/2 life in plasma is very short). Justify had low blood readings but very high urine readings.

Yet Dr. Arthur seems to be saying that going by urine levels is irresponsible. This upset me.
It was just a comment. I’m sure someone could explain the results to me.
Ziggypop
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:27 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:11 pm
Ziggypop wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am

By all means, he blames the messenger.
It's the New York Times. It's not an unreasonable position.
So we should believe Baffort’s attorney. Got it.
stark
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Location: SoCal

Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:16 pm

Ziggypop wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:27 pm
Katewerk wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:11 pm
Ziggypop wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:55 am

By all means, he blames the messenger.
It's the New York Times. It's not an unreasonable position.
So we should believe Baffort’s attorney. Got it.
Tough choice, one of them relies on click bait to make a living while the other tries to operate within the legal system while admittedly pushing the edge of the envelope.
Forced to make a decision,? I'd go with the law firm of Shapiro and Cochran errr whatever their names are.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Vandalay
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:54 pm

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Diver52
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:04 pm

Why didn't Baffert just use those nasal strips like Doug O'Neill? Do they look too dorky? :!:
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
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CoronadosQuest
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:45 pm

Vandalay wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:54 pm
OK, has anyone seen this?

https://www.wave3.com/2019/09/12/vet-sa ... 03bGHM[url][/url]
Well, Rood & Riddle is a pretty reputable clinic so I guess it depends on if people like them or not.
“There’s zero chance anyone would give that to a horse before a race,” Dr. Clara Fenger told WAVE 3 News on Thursday.

Dilated airways might be considered a performance enhancement, but Dr. Stephen Reed, an internal medicine vet from Lexington’s Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital, said there are too many side effects: from increased heart rate and trembling to changing bowel movements and dilated pupils.

“It could make the horse sick,” Reed said. “It’s not a performance-enhancing drug, in fact, to me, because of all the side effects.”
Somnambulist

Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:54 pm

I wouldn't take a Percocet prior to heading to the gym either but that shit sure does work great on a Sunday afternoon when my back locks up and I can't move.

I don't know enough about this drug or it's half-life or possible cross contamination to have a real opinion, but I'm sick of racing being shady AF. At minimum there is no uniformity nation wide which is bad enough.
CorridorZ75
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:05 pm

While I doubt it was intentional, the question is not whether it was intentionally given as a PED, but whether at that dose it had PED effects. Also, for disreputable vets and trainers, side effects that can be disastrous for the horse do not always enter into the equation.
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Retrospectiv
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Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:12 pm

CoronadosQuest wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:45 pm
Vandalay wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:54 pm
OK, has anyone seen this?

https://www.wave3.com/2019/09/12/vet-sa ... 03bGHM[url][/url]
Well, Rood & Riddle is a pretty reputable clinic so I guess it depends on if people like them or not.
“There’s zero chance anyone would give that to a horse before a race,” Dr. Clara Fenger told WAVE 3 News on Thursday.

Dilated airways might be considered a performance enhancement, but Dr. Stephen Reed, an internal medicine vet from Lexington’s Rood and Riddle Equine Hospital, said there are too many side effects: from increased heart rate and trembling to changing bowel movements and dilated pupils.

“It could make the horse sick,” Reed said. “It’s not a performance-enhancing drug, in fact, to me, because of all the side effects.”
I wonder what Rood & Riddle's opinion was on the thyroid medication, that likely caused the death of those 7 Baffert horses.
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway', but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies."
Somnambulist

Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:14 pm

CorridorZ75 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:05 pm
While I doubt it was intentional, the question is not whether it was intentionally given as a PED, but whether at that dose it had PED effects. Also, for disreputable vets and trainers, side effects that can be disastrous for the horse do not always enter into the equation.
Giving a potential PED substance "before a race" is not the same as administering it days prior.
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