Article in New York Times states Justify failed a drug test before the Derby

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Curtis
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Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:24 pm

stark wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:47 pm
Charlie wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:19 pm
I agree, the big issue is that no one in racing is actually upset/doing anything about it. They’re just letting CHRB do what they want. A central governing system could help with this in the future or could still be as uncaring as everyone else is now.
What do you think a central governing system would have done differently after the Santa Anita derby?
It depends on the parameters that were set. If said parameters include the same set of moving goal posts that the CHRB uses, nothing different would have occurred. Currently, the circumstances that prevail have created so much gray area that it’s impossible to find any black or white.
stark
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Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:08 pm

Curtis wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:24 pm
stark wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:47 pm
Charlie wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:19 pm
I agree, the big issue is that no one in racing is actually upset/doing anything about it. They’re just letting CHRB do what they want. A central governing system could help with this in the future or could still be as uncaring as everyone else is now.
What do you think a central governing system would have done differently after the Santa Anita derby?
It depends on the parameters that were set. If said parameters include the same set of moving goal posts that the CHRB uses, nothing different would have occurred. Currently, the circumstances that prevail have created so much gray area that it’s impossible to find any black or white.
Grant me one wish......and that would be that folks would give up on the knee jerk reaction to every problem that faces the industry, that being a National Governing body would prevent/resolve important issues. Horse racing ain't like the NFL or MLB or the UCI and any comparisons/wish lists are pie in the sky at best.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
BaroqueAgain1
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Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:59 pm

I'm not saying that what has happened with the Justify positive is OK, but if the racing industry can ignore a Saudi royal condoning (if not outright ordering) the murder and dismemberment of an American-based reporter, what makes you believe that it's going to be up in arms over a Baffert drug overage?
Saudi Arabia has some ugly human rights issues, but do you think that's going to prevent American owners/trainers from flocking to its $20 million race?
Sheikh Mo had his daughter hauled forcibly off an American-flagged vessel by armed commandos, and his wife, Haya, is so afraid of him that she fled to Europe with her children to try to divorce him. Yet folks at the Keeneland sales fawned over him (and his endless money) when he arrived there.
Just putting things in perspective. It's not a pretty view from that perspective. :(
Somnambulist

Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:30 pm

I've adamantley railed against that ownership group and Al Shaqab for years. Publicslly.

I find it impossible to overlook it. It's a good old white boys club.
MySaladDays
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Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 pm

Equipoise wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:31 pm
I hope Baffert is hiring a good PR firm. It doesn’t matter how innocent he is. His reputation could take a serious hit with things like this. He’s the face of the sport and already I’ve had a few non-racing fan acquaintances ask me about this.
So you're saying Baffert should use PR (otherwise known as "spin") in order to fix this? :lol:


I'll stick with science, and veracity myself.

But meanwhile, I don't think any PR person would "out-spin" Baffert. :mrgreen: It's one of the things he is known for. If he ever failed at horse racing it would have been the perfect career path for him. That's how he got the nickname Teflon
MySaladDays
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:10 am

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:59 pm

Saudi Arabia has some ugly human rights issues
For sure. I don't like them either. But RIght now, some some people might think that about us, due to the immigration stuff they hear about and how children are being treated in detention centers. Have you volunteered in any safe houses for women who are victims of domestic abuse, who are afraid they will be killed, or that their children will become victims of incest, etc. ? I have. :cry:

This is the world. But I don't think we should be mixing apples and oranges here.

All you're pointing out is that the Sport of Kings is actually right now, the Sport of Thieves and Cheats and greedy biliionaires for whom there is never enough money, nad I'm sure they're in Keenland too, as you say. .. Our job is to try to make racing more transparent, honest, and level the playing field with same rules, penalties, fines, and punishments for everyone...so that everyone can flourish in this game

And by the way, I don't like to hear doping stories not because somebody won a race and maybe shouldn't have. I hate all this stuff because I love horses and do not think they deserve to be pin cushions for humans. Things have gotten better over time. We still have the chemists and their chemical horses, but at least they are not sticking a rag with kerosene up the horse's butt and pulling it out when the gates open and other stuff they did before "pharmaceucial cheating" became more prevalent. Not that it's any kinder, since I think about those 7 dead ones sometimes, too.
Last edited by MySaladDays on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
MySaladDays
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:23 am

stark wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:08 pm

Grant me one wish......and that would be that folks would give up on the knee jerk reaction to every problem that faces the industry, that being a National Governing body would prevent/resolve important issues. Horse racing ain't like the NFL or MLB or the UCI and any comparisons/wish lists are pie in the sky at best.
Antibiotics and flu shots don't save everyone, but they sure help. ;)
Equipoise
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:58 am

MySaladDays wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 pm

So you're saying Baffert should use PR (otherwise known as "spin") in order to fix this? :lol:


I'll stick with science, and veracity myself.

But meanwhile, I don't think any PR person would "out-spin" Baffert. :mrgreen: It's one of the things he is known for. If he ever failed at horse racing it would have been the perfect career path for him. That's how he got the nickname Teflon
Maybe he’s Teflon, but it’s his hubris that could bring him down. Nobody outside the industry really talked bad about Wayne Lukas until Union City happened. Little things add up over time.
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Curtis
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:26 pm

MySaladDays wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:23 am
stark wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:08 pm

Grant me one wish......and that would be that folks would give up on the knee jerk reaction to every problem that faces the industry, that being a National Governing body would prevent/resolve important issues. Horse racing ain't like the NFL or MLB or the UCI and any comparisons/wish lists are pie in the sky at best.
Antibiotics and flu shots don't save everyone, but they sure help. ;)
A national governing body seems to be seen as a panacea. What’s needed is a plan. A central office may be the only way to get acceptable medication regulations, so in that sense, I’d support it. The only league that has worked seamlessly with a commissioner is my least favorite the NFL. It does have a sound business plan, however and is wildly successful. MLB, on the other hand, had an owner with a fixed agenda as commissioner for years— an extreme conflict of interest. Oakland and Tampa Bay are still playing in cesspools of stadia and there is no certain plan to fix it.
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Curtis
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:33 pm

Equipoise wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:58 am
MySaladDays wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 pm

So you're saying Baffert should use PR (otherwise known as "spin") in order to fix this? :lol:


I'll stick with science, and veracity myself.

But meanwhile, I don't think any PR person would "out-spin" Baffert. :mrgreen: It's one of the things he is known for. If he ever failed at horse racing it would have been the perfect career path for him. That's how he got the nickname Teflon
Maybe he’s Teflon, but it’s his hubris that could bring him down. Nobody outside the industry really talked bad about Wayne Lukas until Union City happened. Little things add up over time.
Union City might have changed some perceptions of casual fans about Lukas but what really reduced him to his current status was Eugene Klein getting out of the business and William T. Young passing away. As long as there are deep pocketed owners that want to win the way Baffert goes about winning, he’ll be fine. Folks hammer on trainers—and I get that—but someone enables them with horses to train. Baffert could go to Keeneland and buy horses and he and Jill race them, but he’s too smart for that.
stark
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:40 pm

I just can't envision somebody the equivalent of the head of the NFL holding a meeting with this agenda:
I would like input from each of you before I tell you how it's going to be in the future.
Attendees include, but are not limited to, the following:
NYRA
Churchill Downs
CHRB
TSG
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
MySaladDays
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:52 pm

Curtis wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:33 pm
Baffert could go to Keeneland and buy horses and he and Jill race them, but he’s too smart for that.
;)
Catalina
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:59 pm

Charlie wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:10 pm
I don’t know why what Graham said matters? The limit is 75 and he had 300.

It’s not like the 75 limit is measured different than Justify’s 300.

He was wayyyy over the limit and if I read Tessa’s articles right that’s an insanely high level for just “accidental food contamination”

I also stated that I don’t know if a central governing body would help, just saying it could. It also could not care just as much as CHRB does now.
If the permissible limit for the substance is 75 nanograms per milliliter, and everything above that is considered a performance enhancer, then it doesn't matter a hoot whether it got into the horse intentional or not, it is STILL a performance enhancer. And, being a performance enhancer, at an illegal level, the horse should be disqualified.

Correction for amounts to read "nanograms per milliliter".
Last edited by Catalina on Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Curtis
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:58 pm

stark wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:40 pm
I just can't envision somebody the equivalent of the head of the NFL holding a meeting with this agenda:
I would like input from each of you before I tell you how it's going to be in the future.
Attendees include, but are not limited to, the following:
NYRA
Churchill Downs
CHRB
TSG
I don’t entirely disagree with you but I could see this happening. The meeting takes place, the CHRB says,”Nah.....we’re good.” He/Him, She/Her Commish says, “Okay.......but no more Derby points for you Golden State, have fun with the San Felipe AOC and the Santa Anita NW1 Derby.” In fact, Churchill could do that now. I have a hunch things might start to become a little clearer.
Tessablue
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:06 pm

A bit late here but regarding the vet article, I can guarantee that any vet would also say that you'd never give thyroxine to a horse with normal thyroid levels, or bisphosphonates to a developing yearling. It has become clear that many things happen in racing which completely defy responsible scientific or veterinary logic.

I would certainly like to know if the split sample came back at the highly abnormal level of 300ng/mL, along with the details of the other positives. But as people are increasingly noting in this thread, the avenue by which the substance entered Justify is a secondary consideration here. And while I suppose people can decry the messenger as much as they want, three things remain absolute truths that have not been disputed by any party involved:

1. Baffert has a history of giving horses potentially harmful substances for non-veterinary reasons.
2. Justify tested well above the legal limit for a potentially harmful substance.
3. The CHRB, whose chairman owned horses trained by Baffert, elected to privately do nothing about it.

You can either accept those above facts and move on, or you can demand that we do better in the future. Only one of those options gives this sport a chance at long-term survival.
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Curtis
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:27 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:06 pm
A bit late here but regarding the vet article, I can guarantee that any vet would also say that you'd never give thyroxine to a horse with normal thyroid levels, or bisphosphonates to a developing yearling. It has become clear that many things happen in racing which completely defy responsible scientific or veterinary logic.

I would certainly like to know if the split sample came back at the highly abnormal level of 300ng/mL, along with the details of the other positives. But as people are increasingly noting in this thread, the avenue by which the substance entered Justify is a secondary consideration here. And while I suppose people can decry the messenger as much as they want, three things remain absolute truths that have not been disputed by any party involved:

1. Baffert has a history of giving horses potentially harmful substances for non-veterinary reasons.
2. Justify tested well above the legal limit for a potentially harmful substance.
3. The CHRB, whose chairman owned horses trained by Baffert, elected to privately do nothing about it.

You can either accept those above facts and move on, or you can demand that we do better in the future. Only one of those options gives this sport a chance at long-term survival.
I’m completely in favor of doing a better job in the future. If Team Ruis wants to file suit over the Santa Anita Derby, maybe something happens there, but in my opinion, there is no way, after this year’s train wreck that CD, reverses last year’s Derby. So by moving on, my point is to save yourself/ourselves the stress. I prefer the fool me once—I know it’s been more than once, but work with me—approach and let’s not let this happen again or eventually the only racing we’ll ever see will be Native American Relays on bullrings.
Tessablue
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:55 pm

Curtis wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:27 pm
I’m completely in favor of doing a better job in the future. If Team Ruis wants to file suit over the Santa Anita Derby, maybe something happens there, but in my opinion, there is no way, after this year’s train wreck that CD, reverses last year’s Derby. So by moving on, my point is to save yourself/ourselves the stress. I prefer the fool me once—I know it’s been more than once, but work with me—approach and let’s not let this happen again or eventually the only racing we’ll ever see will be Native American Relays on bullrings.
Oh, I view that as falling squarely into the second category. I'm referring more to the people who have fought in favor of the status quo, and who seem to think that even continued discussion and analysis of this event threatens the sport. I think it does threaten it, inasmuch as it encourages some people to dig in and tell themselves that this is ok. It simply isn't.

I think he should be DQ'd from the SA Derby, per the rules. Obviously that won't happen, but I do know the CHRB has changed in composition quite a bit since the results came back, so the opportunity is there. I think it would be fascinating if CD rescinded the Derby, but I'm wary of giving CDI more power than they already have. I'm not certain that their interests align any more favorably with the continued existence of the sport than the CHRB's. But we need more research, clearer and more transparent evaluation processes, and divestment from egregious conflicts of interest from governing bodies. I'm not sure how feasible that last one is without a national governing body, though- I think Baffert would have California racing held hostage even if he didn't train for their chairman.
stark
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:48 pm

Curtis wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:58 pm
stark wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:40 pm
I just can't envision somebody the equivalent of the head of the NFL holding a meeting with this agenda:
I would like input from each of you before I tell you how it's going to be in the future.
Attendees include, but are not limited to, the following:
NYRA
Churchill Downs
CHRB
TSG
I don’t entirely disagree with you but I could see this happening. The meeting takes place, the CHRB says,”Nah.....we’re good.” He/Him, She/Her Commish says, “Okay.......but no more Derby points for you Golden State, have fun with the San Felipe AOC and the Santa Anita NW1 Derby.” In fact, Churchill could do that now. I have a hunch things might start to become a little clearer.
Obviously you've staggered haphazardly into the obvious solution.

They have the single most premier race of the year.
They have the premier breeding grounds.
They have blue grass.
They have Spires.
They have a museum.
They have the best auctions.
They have dirt, turf and polytrack surfaces.
They have steaks and whiskey.

Officially put Kentucky in charge of horse racing for the Nation and everybody else will fall into line, what's not to like?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Curtis
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:38 pm

stark wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:48 pm
Curtis wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 1:58 pm
stark wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:40 pm
I just can't envision somebody the equivalent of the head of the NFL holding a meeting with this agenda:
I would like input from each of you before I tell you how it's going to be in the future.
Attendees include, but are not limited to, the following:
NYRA
Churchill Downs
CHRB
TSG
I don’t entirely disagree with you but I could see this happening. The meeting takes place, the CHRB says,”Nah.....we’re good.” He/Him, She/Her Commish says, “Okay.......but no more Derby points for you Golden State, have fun with the San Felipe AOC and the Santa Anita NW1 Derby.” In fact, Churchill could do that now. I have a hunch things might start to become a little clearer.
Obviously you've staggered haphazardly into the obvious solution.

They have the single most premier race of the year.
They have the premier breeding grounds.
They have blue grass.
They have Spires.
They have a museum.
They have the best auctions.
They have dirt, turf and polytrack surfaces.
They have steaks and whiskey.

Officially put Kentucky in charge of horse racing for the Nation and everybody else will fall into line, what's not to like?
I wouldn’t spit on the president of CDI if his hair were on fire as they basically left Hollywood Park for dead when they got tired of fighting with Native Americans, but the mechanism is in place. The BC could do the same with Win and You’re In’s and not having the BC in CA 4 out of every 5 years.
stark
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Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:39 pm

I didn't want to ruin the Penn Derby thread....

So, here it goes....

Any chance Max Security's colon problems can be a reaction to something he ate, or was provided by his trainer?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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