Breeders Cup Discussion?

Somnambulist

Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:05 pm

Because we're older now. I work my ass off, at work and in the gym, and this is not how I want to spend my free time. I can't get the people in my life to enjoy watching this in their free time. Who wants to be passionate about something you can't share with the people you love. My parents, who have driven hours and hundreds of thousands of miles to support my love of this, are done. They can't get behind it anymore.

You grow tired of watching someone or something not care about itself. You should not care about something that does not care about itself. That is a healthy boundary.
Timely Writer
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:09 pm

It has to be if you supplement to the race and decide not to run you are refunded.
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Kurenai
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:11 pm

Thanks Falinadin and Corridor!

Gutted about the news, but they surely did the right thing. No point to let him suffer.
TapitsGal
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:18 pm

I'm absolutely heartbroken Mongolian groom is gone. If I recall correctly, he was one of two horses in the trainers barn. And that the trainer and his family were also the owners with the trainers son being assistant trainer. I believe the owner and trainer are also older(80s maybe?) Meaning Mongolian groom will all likelihood be the best horse they ever get and was probably their only breeders cup horse they'll ever see. Breakdowns seem to hurt more when you know the horse is from a small barn as opposed to Baffert or pletcher...the classic was the only race I saw this year. I tuned in to watch Elate. I refused to watch the other 14 races because in light of all the fatalities and breakdowns Santa Anita has had since December, I had a bad feeling this was going to happen. I'm suddenly glad that Enable and Magical did NOT run this year. I know breakdowns can happen anywhere..but I really DO wish that a different track had been chosen to host back in late June when there was discussion of moving the event..and I've got to also wonder is the Breeders Cup board kicking themselves right now? And wishing they'd made a different decision? I noticed that many of the breeders cup fields this year averaged only about 9 horses...I have to wonder were there connections who chose to bypass the championships because of the santa Anita injuries shit show?
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:27 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:05 pm
You grow tired of watching someone or something not care about itself. You should not care about something that does not care about itself. That is a healthy boundary.
I think this is very important; thank you for saying it. Looking around at Paulick, Twitter etc. is incredibly distressing because there are so many people just saying "you're all overreacting, it's part of the game, nothing could have been done." I just can't understand it. Thankfully this thread has been really nice and measured, but we've seen pretty recently that the belief that we can do much better is strongly unpopular in certain quarters.

I believe that most horsemen and sport officials want things to be better. I really do, and I'm not about to lose hope because of some internet comments. But then I read things like this, and I wonder: https://www.paulickreport.com/news/peop ... ach-group/

How did I miss the fact that the CEO of the BC joined the Stronach group this fall? How much did that play into the decision to keep the event at SA this year?!
CorridorZ75
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:32 pm

Sincerely, I don't think it played into the decision at all. I think the BC understood to pull out of the Santa Anita would have been a sign of no faith in the track and basically the industry in California. It would have been saying we will cut off this appendage in the hopes that it will staunch the bleeding, but as we have seen, while there may have been circumstances that did cause the uptick in breakdowns at the track over the winter, there have been upticks in New York and Kentucky as well. Once the industry basically throws in the towel in one state, then there will be a cascading effect to others. There is no doubt of that. Because the overall problem is not just one track.

And to respond to TapitsGal, again focusing on Santa Anita as if it is the only track with an uptick in breakdowns will not help solve the problem because it is not solely a track problem. Heck, California is probably doing more to try to keep unsound horses out of the races than any other state currently because of this.
Last edited by CorridorZ75 on Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tessablue
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:42 pm

I fully see your point, but wouldn't it have softened to blow to say something like "we know Santa Anita is dedicated to making safety reforms, so we feel it is only fair to give them the chance to do so without the pressure of this major event"? I fear the legislative and public cascade will be worse than the alternative here, and I wonder if they elect to pack the track with sand without the BC looming over it. They only had what, 18 race days to playtest it?

Again, not stating the track was at fault here. I'm going to run some numbers on the dirt races tonight because it's therapeutic and I'm interested in quantifying how the races turned out, and it's entirely possible that there would have been more injuries had they not put so much effort into the track. I just think they were on the knife's edge with a strict deadline, and that's not a fair situation for anyone involved.
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Northport
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Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:51 pm

TapitsGal wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:18 pm
I'm absolutely heartbroken Mongolian groom is gone. If I recall correctly, he was one of two horses in the trainers barn. And that the trainer and his family were also the owners with the trainers son being assistant trainer. I believe the owner and trainer are also older(80s maybe?) Meaning Mongolian groom will all likelihood be the best horse they ever get and was probably their only breeders cup horse they'll ever see.
Only a small sidenote, but the same connections won the BC Turf Sprint a couple years ago with Mongolian Saturday. For a small operation, they are incredibly successful with horses that others wouldn’t give time of day. Either way, losing Mongolian Groom is a devastating loss.
weeeeeeeee
Tessablue
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:06 am

A couple of other notes- I want to emphasize that what primarily bothers is the fact that the decision was made during the height of the fatalities in the spring. We know how much SA has done to improve since then, but at the time there was clearly something wrong with the surface, as evidenced by the profile of the affected horses and the fact that that the rate dropped once substantial revisions were made. The choice to stay was a gamble and it almost paid off, but ultimately they lost. And the optics of the BC CEO leaving for the Stronach Group so soon afterwards are... unfortunate, to say the least.

Moreover, I'm not certain that there's been a general uptick elsewhere? Are there any reports on the overall fatality rate across the country this year? Poor Borough Boy was the lone racing fatality at Saratoga this year, and according to a Bloodhorse article (https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... fatalities), Churchill dramatically decreased its fatality rate this year as well. Keeneland was way up (https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... breakdowns), and I'm not sure where Belmont ultimately ended up. I completely agree that there are major systemic issues, and I'm deeply worried about these bisphosphonate horses as they grow older, but when you combine those systemic issues with local problems and public pressure, it makes for a dangerous mix.
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Diver52
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:27 am

I turned to the man next to me and gave him the line from the Jack Nicholson/Shirley McClaine film "Terms of Endearment," where Jack is trying to slide out of any relationship with Shirley and doesn't quite make it--he says with a sickly grin something like "One step away from a clean getaway." The man was my age and knew exactly what I meant.

Two things: I was just outside the eighth pole and had no idea anything had happened until I saw the screens. The ambulance/screen guys were incredibly quick. Second, I could sea the jockey's red cap ABOVE the screen until just before the horse was loaded, then he seemed to hop down. I have no idea what was going on, maybe I mis-saw.

I love California, but it is going nuts. The LA Times had an article today about a trendy and rich couple who wanted a vegan set of furnishings to match their "cruelty-free" lifestyle. No leather, no wool, no. . . .silk. I'm sorry, but if a caterpillar can provide me with something beautiful and pleasurable, then that worm's days are numbered.

Very sorry that Mongolian Groom did not make it and I really, really hope there was no objective reason to think he wasn't 100%.

I sometimes would like to tell anti-racing people to watch "The Incredible Dr. Pol" and see what messes horses can get themselves into just out in the pasture
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
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Private Thoughts
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:19 am

While I am saddened that this beautiful animal is gone, it is part of the sport, just as in car races, crashes are part of the sport and sometimes people lose their lives. They know the risk but still participate.

It may sound flippant or uncaring, but there is no way to make this sport 100% breakdown free, unless you have virtual racing. You or I could break a bone taking a misstep, well, so do 1200 lb. animals at top speed. It just happens. As somebody mentioned, these guys can hurt themselves out in their paddocks.

Breeding fragile bloodlines also does not help, look at how popular Unbridled’s Song was. It perpetuates and increases the risk of injury. But money talks, and a quick return on an investment is what people seem to look for.

Breakdowns have been around as long as people have raced thoroughbreds. I remember reading Black Gold as a child, and his star crossed life ended on a sad note. He was a Derby winner. The list is endless, remember Ruffian, Roving Boy, Timely Writer, Go For Wand, Eillo, Prairie Bayou, Royal Glint, Dark Mirage, etc. The list is endless.

If you watch racing bad things can and will happen. Maybe not everyday but sooner or later it will. Only you can decide if it’s okay. More thoughtful breeding, safer surfaces, etc., all help but, but life being life, bad stuff happens.
barbaro111
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:36 am

The saddest thing about horses is that they are fatally flawed: 99 out of 100 times a horse that breaks a leg has to be put down --for all of the reasons we understand and it is horrible- some are saved and are able to survive and live out their life. I also think think that some horses could be saved if the owners would spend the money to try and save them- most don't. some do. My feeling about Mongolian Groom is that the people at the track seems to have done everything they possibly could to try and avoid what happened in this case. I didn't want the BC held at Santa Anita because of what happened here. The track will be blamed ----- was the horse sound? i hope so--was there any objective evidence the horse was not sound? was it a bad step? we will probably never know why he sustained such a horrible injury but there will be rampant speculation. It is a such a shame this happened: it was so close to being a wonderful day ----
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Retrospectiv
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:54 am

Tessablue wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:27 pm
Somnambulist wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:05 pm
You grow tired of watching someone or something not care about itself. You should not care about something that does not care about itself. That is a healthy boundary.
I think this is very important; thank you for saying it. Looking around at Paulick, Twitter etc. is incredibly distressing because there are so many people just saying "you're all overreacting, it's part of the game, nothing could have been done." I just can't understand it. Thankfully this thread has been really nice and measured, but we've seen pretty recently that the belief that we can do much better is strongly unpopular in certain quarters.

I believe that most horsemen and sport officials want things to be better. I really do, and I'm not about to lose hope because of some internet comments. But then I read things like this, and I wonder: https://www.paulickreport.com/news/peop ... ach-group/

How did I miss the fact that the CEO of the BC joined the Stronach group this fall? How much did that play into the decision to keep the event at SA this year?!
It'd been announced earlier he's leaving the BC and will be managing CEO of Santa Anita. Nooooo conflict of interest there in pushing to keep the event at that track..... :roll: :roll: :roll:
"It's been my policy to view the Internet not as an 'information highway', but as an electronic asylum filled with babbling loonies."
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Sparrow Castle
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:34 pm

Racing’s turbulent year continues: Breeders’ Cup marred by breakdown in final race
By Tim Layden
They came to California this weekend to race, but also to heal, and in the most public way possible. Owners, trainers, breeders, jockeys. And horses. Most of all, the horses. They came from Europe and Asia and from across the United States. From New York and Kentucky and from right here in California, where horses could sleep on familiar straw and race on familiar dirt and grass. They came to run the two days and 14 races of the Breeders’ Cup Championships, at Santa Anita, but also with hopes of applying ointment to an open wound that can’t be healed in a weekend, and to remind themselves and the world of the good in their sport. If only for two days.
More: https://sports.nbcsports.com/2019/11/03 ... V8FHrinuas
TapitsGal
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:26 pm

The nbc article could've at least gotten Mongolian groom's gender right..they called him a colt..he was a GELDING..I didn't bother reading the comments being posted in the comments section..I don't currently have enough sanity or patience to deal with the amount of ignorance most of those comments will contain...I can garauntee 99.9 % of the posters have never set foot on a working thoroughbred breeding farm or the backside of a track for that matter
barbaro111
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:19 pm

TapitsGal wrote:
Sun Nov 03, 2019 7:26 pm
The nbc article could've at least gotten Mongolian groom's gender right..they called him a colt..he was a GELDING..I didn't bother reading the comments being posted in the comments section..I don't currently have enough sanity or patience to deal with the amount of ignorance most of those comments will contain...I can garauntee 99.9 % of the posters have never set foot on a working thoroughbred breeding farm or the backside of a track for that matter
i had the misfortune to read the comments---you did yourself a favor avoiding them
Tessablue
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:24 pm

Wow, has Shug ever said anything like this? From https://www.drf.com/news/mixed-emotions ... ssic?type=
McGaughey said he thought Santa Anita “did a terrible job” with the track surface.

“They want to make it like a beach. It doesn’t work,” he said. “The best horse won the race. The second horse would have been second. But I had been warning my friends that they’d look at the charts and be amazed at what they’d see, how far horses would be separated. I was hoping the track would tighten down as the week went on. It didn’t. Santa Anita did a terrible job in my opinion.”
Somewhat surprised by this quote from Baffert as well, from https://www.drf.com/news/mongolian-groo ... ssic?type=
Said Baffert: “I didn’t see it happen, but you just don’t know what’s going to happen. “He was going at a pretty good clip with McKinzie and they get tired. It’s a very tiring racetrack.
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:54 pm

It would appear that, in an effort to avoid having the surface be too hard and concussive, they may have over-corrected and made the track too deep. Fatigue can bring about injuries as well, just different maybe than impact damage. :(
Horsebagger
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:33 pm

stark wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:45 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:26 pm
Wow, Come Dancing has opened at a much lower price than Covfefe.
Horsebagger got his bet in early
Oh, if only Dennis' Moment hadn't taken half my stack down the tubes in his first stride, it might have been my money in early on her. Apologies to the rest of the passengers on my flight for the audible naughty words expressed when a significant win and P4 ticket went belly-up in a single miss-step.
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Sparrow Castle
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Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:38 pm

Feinstein Post-Breeders’ Cup: ‘It’s Clear That Not Enough Has Changed’
Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-Calif.) released the following statement after Mongolian Groom was euthanized due to injuries sustained while racing in the Breeders' Cup Classic at Santa Anita in Arcadia, Calif., on Saturday:
“It breaks my heart to hear that another horse died because of injuries sustained during the Breeders' Cup at Santa Anita Racetrack. This year, 37 horses have died at Santa Anita, seven of those since racing resumed in September. That's simply unacceptable.
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the- ... s-changed/
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