Bramlage's Mongolian Groom report

CorridorZ75
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:45 am

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 pm

https://www.breederscup.com/sites/defau ... uation.pdf
The report from Bramlage.

Believe every track has a bit of dead space within the middle of both main and training tracks where rings and straightways for trotting for lameness evaluation could be set up. Also think, small grass paddocks should also be set up in these areas to allow horses to get more movement which would help the bone bruising which is the beginning of these problems dissipate. And yes, in the era of surveillance, there is no reason why not to have video of every horse at a track jogging for a set period of time, especially with microchips coming into play for identification of the horses before they set on the track.
Ziggypop
Posts: 529
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:45 pm

Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:50 pm

CorridorZ75 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 pm
https://www.breederscup.com/sites/defau ... uation.pdf
The report from Bramlage.

Believe every track has a bit of dead space within the middle of both main and training tracks where rings and straightways for trotting for lameness evaluation could be set up. Also think, small grass paddocks should also be set up in these areas to allow horses to get more movement which would help the bone bruising which is the beginning of these problems dissipate. And yes, in the era of surveillance, there is no reason why not to have video of every horse at a track jogging for a set period of time, especially with microchips coming into play for identification of the horses before they set on the track.
The Bloodhorse article failed to include the fact that Bramlage found a “pre-existing injury in MG ‘s left hind. There was a stress fracture in cannon bone. In fact, both cannon bones.
BorntoWin2
Posts: 15
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:42 pm

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:17 pm

The PDF of the final report included images of a sound leg/hoof and MG's. Also detailed description of the various exams that were noted as concerns by different veterinarians.
User avatar
Diver52
Posts: 1830
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:44 pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:20 pm

Lots to think about there. I don't assume that Dr. Bramlage is writing in a truly impartial voice, but it seems obvious that detecting lameness--and the risk of false positives--is not a simple analysis.
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
CorridorZ75
Posts: 171
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:45 am

Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:41 pm

Diver52 wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:20 pm
Lots to think about there. I don't assume that Dr. Bramlage is writing in a truly impartial voice, but it seems obvious that detecting lameness--and the risk of false positives--is not a simple analysis.
A proper lameness evaluation usually is an all day affair on a flat hard surface that can allow for straight and circular movement at a trot. It can also involve several nerve and joint blocks that would not be allowed within a certain number of days of a race. And even with all this, it can be very difficult to truly pinpoint the primary problem as so much of a horse's limb is so very dependent on other parts of "the apparatus".
katmandu
Posts: 1251
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:16 am

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:04 pm

Ziggypop wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:50 pm
The Bloodhorse article failed to include the fact that Bramlage found a “pre-existing injury in MG ‘s left hind. There was a stress fracture in cannon bone. In fact, both cannon bones.
???????

The first paragraph of the BH article says (bolding mine):

"Mongolian Groom, who suffered a fatal injury in the 2019 Longines Breeders' Cup Classic (G1), had lesions in both hind distal cannon bones when he started in the Nov. 2 race at Santa Anita Park, according to a report commissioned by Breeders' Cup to examine the fatality."
Last edited by katmandu on Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lurkey mclurker
Posts: 2822
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:43 pm

I had to stop after the radiographs and description of how the injury unfolded; it made me sick to my stomach. On the one hand, it's totally understandable how MG "slipped through the cracks" - because he exhibited no other signs of anything wrong aside from stiffness.

(But now I wonder about all those other horses on the watch list for stiffness too, and what happened with them. Sure nothing happened *that* day, but what about since then?)

So everything *was* done right - he was on a watch list, he received extra scrutiny by many experts, and nothing was really wrong until it went catastrophically wrong. It doesn't seem fair to say that was human error.

But then again, if we know now that underlying *serious* issues can hide beneath nothing more obvious than stiffness - how can we truly determine oh it's just body soreness etc, and let them run? But if we require more and stringent exams and nothing is detected, how are we justified in saying they can't run? But if we do allow them to run, and something does go wrong - the outcome is life-threatening to not only the horse but the jockey and every other horse and jockey who might be affected around the stricken horse.

I'll go back when I can and finish the report, because I do want to see what the suggestions for improvement are... but it's so, so complicated. It's far, far more than a simplistic "bad step" explanation but also so much more complex than just dismissing racing as cruel and inhumane... :(
stark
Posts: 5623
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:27 pm

Is there value for the General Public to see these details and which future cases should be shared?
Breeders Cup only?
Graded stakes races?
All races?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
User avatar
Kurenai
Site Admin
Posts: 1134
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:01 pm

Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:01 pm

I think it is valuable for the public to read how much effort goes into checking the horses and what the plans are to improve. It also explains that you can't do a complete thorough check (which would take the whole day). If you read through the report, it's not all negative and there are some good suggestions (circle for trotting to make valuation easier etc).

Bilateral lameness is hard to spot. I often notice that a horse in the warmups has a stiff hind and is a bit short or choppy. But that doesn't mean anything. In that case it did. It's like with airplanes, they're safe, there are a lot of things in place to make it safer, but sometimes a chain of events leads to a catastrophe.

Generally speaking a report like this isn't bad. Better than speculation after speculation and rumors (not that those will ever die down completely). I don't think that every single report should be made public like this and also isn't necessary (but it should be stored in a database at the jockey club for research etc), but in high profile cases it's useful. Again: same with airplane accidents, there's an investigation and a report for the public/media and not only the families of the persons who were on the flight, insurance companies etc. If there's public interest, it's always good to explain how things happened and what will be done in the future to make it more safer.
stark
Posts: 5623
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:35 pm

Thanks Kurenai, I just worry what happens when the info falls into the hands of the enemy. How will they interpret it and is it still beneficial for general distribution?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
User avatar
Diver52
Posts: 1830
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:44 pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:14 pm

Well, the Los Angeles Times' headline was "Breeders' Cup Death was Avoidable.". :roll:
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
stark
Posts: 5623
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:07 pm

Diver52 wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:14 pm
Well, the Los Angeles Times' headline was "Breeders' Cup Death was Avoidable.". :roll:
Unintended consequences.
Just one of many that sound like that, thanks.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
aethervox
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:48 am

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:04 pm

Speaking as a member of the 'general public', i.e. I am not an expert horseman, have never owned a horse (but wish I could), I appreciate this report. It explains, to me, why it was so difficult to spot any lameness, why the horse kept being checked, and why X-rays wouldn't have helped (I know from my own experience with a cracked bone that unless the X-ray is at the perfect angle, they don't show up until they start to heal/calcify).

I wonder if something similar to Mare Stare could be implemented regarding the workout videos? That might be a way to alert the vets to take an extra close look at a particular horse and watch that particular video.

Just a thought.

aethervox
User avatar
Diver52
Posts: 1830
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:44 pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:42 pm

I remember when I broke my hip they weren't even sure from Xrays that there WAS a fracture (although my screaming in pain whenever my leg moved could have been a clue) and they had to do an MRI to be sure.

In a perfect world--heck, even in a less imperfect world--trainers would at least be doing the circular trot thing and then making good decisions.
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
roxyllsk
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 7:40 am

Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:50 pm

When I fractured ribs from my horse flipping over on me, nothing showed on the xrays. The healed fractures showed up on the xrays I needed 6 months later when I had another xray taken.
User avatar
bare it all
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:21 pm

Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:49 pm

As an avid racing fan for almost 3 decades, I can’t ever recall being given this much detail on any breakdown. Even Barbaro didn’t give us this level of “how it happened” and I think it goes a long way in the “Information Age” to give anyone access to this. I would love to see this level of transparency provided for any TB with a racing/training catastrophic injury.

I applaud this level of transparency into the care these top level athletes received on the day and I’m sorry it wasn’t enough for Mongolian Groom.
lurkey mclurker
Posts: 2822
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 pm

roxyllsk wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:50 pm
When I fractured ribs from my horse flipping over on me, nothing showed on the xrays. The healed fractures showed up on the xrays I needed 6 months later when I had another xray taken.
And my x-ray (I broke a rib coughing once when I had pneumonia) was read clean at the time, only for me to get a phone call like two weeks later from the head of radiology to inform me that in fact there was a fracture. :roll: Not like it would've changed anything since they don't do much for ribs, but.
greyhorse
Posts: 61
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:53 pm

Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:38 pm

lurkey mclurker wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:16 pm
roxyllsk wrote:
Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:50 pm
When I fractured ribs from my horse flipping over on me, nothing showed on the xrays. The healed fractures showed up on the xrays I needed 6 months later when I had another xray taken.
And my x-ray (I broke a rib coughing once when I had pneumonia) was read clean at the time, only for me to get a phone call like two weeks later from the head of radiology to inform me that in fact there was a fracture. :roll: Not like it would've changed anything since they don't do much for ribs, but.
Glad to hear you say that. Same happened to me, when I had walking pneumonia, and I knew it wasn't a sprain or bruise. But everyone thought I was being a hypochondriac. Now every time I get a strong cold again, that same spot hurts.

I think the biggest revelation from this report was that it's stupid to look for lameness by if a set of legs doesn't match. If they're both lame, then it's OK? No.
lurkey mclurker
Posts: 2822
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:15 pm

Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:01 pm

I think the biggest a-ha for me, being a layperson essentially even though I have a lot of riding & horse experience - I wasn't very knowledgeable about bilateral lameness and its effects, which seems like it might be a lot more prevalent than one might suspect but stays hidden by its nature.

I always look at the horses parading and notice if/when they look stiff (mainly behind, but sometimes they step short in front too) and that raises my eyebrow a little, but I've always only thought of the straight jog/trot test for lameness as kind of the diagnostic standard (along with flexion & other tests & radiographs, etc - everything it seems they did for MG).

The OTTB I was working with definitely exhibited far more significant soreness on the circle when longeing, though, so I feel really dumb that I hadn't considered that before as being the potentially far more valuable observation. In that regard, the report was very useful for me even if it was hard (emotionally) to read in places.
MySaladDays
Posts: 1061
Joined: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:16 am

Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:35 am

stark wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:35 pm
I just worry what happens when the info falls into the hands of the enemy. How will they interpret it and is it still beneficial for general distribution?
I don't understand this kind of thinking. I am busy thinking about all the ways to make horse racing better and in this case, all the "stuffs" that SA did they did right. It worked out right.

THIS is what we should be putting our efforts toward. To me this shows what happens when you DO do things right.

If only U.S. horse racing would police and conduct itself properly, we most likely wouldn't have so many "enemies" for you to "worry" about. :roll:

It's horse and cart stuff. Very simple, actually. Actions have outcomes...........so best practice right action so you get better outcomes. .
Post Reply