Jockey club exploring 140 mare cap per stallion

FlyToTheStars
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:02 am

I think it is a smart move of JC to explore this. We need to limit covers due to shrinking gene pool as mentioned.

Bad news for Coolmore and Spendthrift with several 200+ mare per stallion.
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Ioya Two
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:38 pm

Yeah, I can think of several farms that won't be too happy with this.
Pulpit 1994-2012
Horsebagger
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:03 pm

Ioya Two wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:38 pm
Yeah, I can think of several farms that won't be too happy with this.
Which/why?
carole
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:50 pm

Does this not raise stud fees and make it harder for smaller breeders to get a nice breeding to a nice stallion? Won’t farms like Coolmore be shipping their studs abroad where there’s no cap and they can breed as many mares as they want?

I’m genuinely asking, don’t know enough about the business side of breeding to be able to judge whether these are genuine concerns or not.
RugbyGirl
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:04 pm

Obviously I don't know a lot on this but this graphic was posted on twitter which might help put it in perspective
https://mobile.twitter.com/Joe_Nevills/ ... 0755286017
IMG_20190907_070247.jpg
Let me put it this way Coolmore have paid Gazillions of dollars to have the rights to American Pharoah and Justify. They would have paid that expecting to be able to breed x number of mares each season. Right or wrong they are going to be furious they could have that taken away!
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Izvestia
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:17 pm

Better for the gene pool... and better for the stallions... and reduces big farms monopolizing the breeding industry. Win win win.
Izvestia
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:18 pm

RugbyGirl wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:04 pm
Obviously I don't know a lot on this but this graphic was posted on twitter which might help put it in perspective
https://mobile.twitter.com/Joe_Nevills/ ... 0755286017

IMG_20190907_070247.jpg
Let me put it this way Coolmore have paid Gazillions of dollars to have the rights to American Pharoah and Justify. They would have paid that expecting to be able to breed x number of mares each season. Right or wrong they are going to be furious they could have that taken away!
Who cares. They could turn out to be flops, and they would have invested the money.
CorridorZ75
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:33 pm

I would guess the staggered introduction of the rule is meant to appease the Coolmores. They set the cost they are willing to pay for a stallion at the point they think they can get the money back in stud fees within the first three seasons before the stallion has a chance to prove himself a flop or decent.

And yes, looking at those numbers, it is a problem that so few of them are proven, but also that many of them were not all that impressive on the racetrack, regardless of their one moment in the sun.

I know the capitalists and libertarians among us will be screaming bloody murder on this plan, and think there is nothing to fix, but there is a huge difference in today's breeding market from the past. It sure as hell seems that 90% are bred to sale rather than to race ( when the Phipps and Sam Son send their yearlings through the sales ring, well the breeder/owner concept has pretty much died), so stallions that aren't fashionable in the sales ring from the get go end up getting tossed aside before their first crops even have a chance to show if they are racehorses, so you end up with a surplus of lines that produce good-muscled yearlings that may or may not be good racehorses, and people wonder why they breed isn't as fast, doesn't have as much stamina, and are not as sturdy as before. Honestly, I think the whole process of turning out a sales yearling is contributing to the decrease in sturdiness. These yearlings have had increased muscle mass put on their bodies than what they really should as they are still growing- it puts more strain on the bones. They are put through repetitive exercises and intensive nutritional regimens.
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Private Thoughts
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:55 pm

CorridorZ75 wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:33 pm
I would guess the staggered introduction of the rule is meant to appease the Coolmores. They set the cost they are willing to pay for a stallion at the point they think they can get the money back in stud fees within the first three seasons before the stallion has a chance to prove himself a flop or decent.

And yes, looking at those numbers, it is a problem that so few of them are proven, but also that many of them were not all that impressive on the racetrack, regardless of their one moment in the sun.

I know the capitalists and libertarians among us will be screaming bloody murder on this plan, and think there is nothing to fix, but there is a huge difference in today's breeding market from the past. It sure as hell seems that 90% are bred to sale rather than to race ( when the Phipps and Sam Son send their yearlings through the sales ring, well the breeder/owner concept has pretty much died), so stallions that aren't fashionable in the sales ring from the get go end up getting tossed aside before their first crops even have a chance to show if they are racehorses, so you end up with a surplus of lines that produce good-muscled yearlings that may or may not be good racehorses, and people wonder why they breed isn't as fast, doesn't have as much stamina, and are not as sturdy as before. Honestly, I think the whole process of turning out a sales yearling is contributing to the decrease in sturdiness. These yearlings have had increased muscle mass put on their bodies than what they really should as they are still growing- it puts more strain on the bones. They are put through repetitive exercises and intensive nutritional regimens.
I could not agree more. :)
tachyon
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:34 pm

FlyToTheStars wrote:
Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:02 am
I think it is a smart move of JC to explore this. We need to limit covers due to shrinking gene pool as mentioned.

Bad news for Coolmore and Spendthrift with several 200+ mare per stallion.
Agreed!

and I hope Shadai will read this, too.
The 17-year-old son of Pulpit has been standing for $300,000 since 2015, the second year within a stretch of three consecutive years he ranked as North America's leading sire. His book will again be limited to 125 mares.
https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... ium=social
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:44 pm

I think for a libertarian to be upset, a libertarian would actually have to know what it is well enough to know what upsets it.

I don't see how this is a bad idea. I think it's physically easier on all stallions too.
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Northport
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:00 pm

*John Magnier has entered the chat*
weeeeeeeee
BaroqueAgain1
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Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:26 pm

CorridorZ75 : Honestly, I think the whole process of turning out a sales yearling is contributing to the decrease in sturdiness. These yearlings have had increased muscle mass put on their bodies than what they really should as they are still growing- it puts more strain on the bones. They are put through repetitive exercises and intensive nutritional regimens.

I agree, although IMHO that is a completely different issue than how many mares are bred to a stallion.
That list RugbyGirl posted had 42 stallions who saw 140 mares or more, so it's not like there are just a handful of studs with high numbers. And the horses in that list seemed to have a wide variety of bloodlines, so I'm not sure you can blame high breeding numbers for some sort of genetic bottleneck.
Now, whether high numbers compromise a stallion's health is, as they say, a whole 'nother matter. :oops:
Starspangled
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:23 am

I imagine Coolmore will come up with a new model, they were largely responsible for the introduction of shuttling after all. The NH breeding season for their top US stallions could be split between the US and Europe (where they can continue to cover as many mares as they want). They could bring at least some of the ~150 Coolmore-associated US-based mares back to Ireland and cover them here, freeing up covers in the US for other breeders. European mares wouldn’t have to travel to be covered by their US stallions and US breeders could send their mares to Ireland if the quota is filled in the US.
Izvestia
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:56 am

Anyone who thinks this isn’t a good idea... 245 mares??? Are they building an Into Mischief army? I know he’s HOT, but give the horse a chance to live to 20.
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Flanders
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:50 am

Izvestia wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:56 am
Anyone who thinks this isn’t a good idea... 245 mares??? Are they building an Into Mischief army? I know he’s HOT, but give the horse a chance to live to 20.
They are one of the farms complaining about it, in this other article on Bloodhorse. They stood 4 stallions that bred over 165 mares in 2018.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing ... -book-size
RuffiantoRags
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:32 am

I think this is a great idea, it will put more value on the resulting foals, better quality mares for the stallion, and so often each year I hear these KY stallions are exhausted going to the breeding shed. I even think any stallion over 17 should have a limited book.
KatieK101
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:35 pm

RuffiantoRags wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:32 am
I think this is a great idea, it will put more value on the resulting foals, better quality mares for the stallion, and so often each year I hear these KY stallions are exhausted going to the breeding shed. I even think any stallion over 17 should have a limited book.
My thoughts exactly.
KatieK101
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:39 pm

"We are disappointed that The Jockey Club would float this idea without anyone having approached us and asked our opinion," Toffey said. "We obviously breed larger books. If you were to reduce Into Mischief's book, his becomes a very expensive stud fee, and the way it is now works for a lot of smaller breeders."

Maybe I don’t understand the concept of “smaller breeders”, but Into Mischief already stands at $150k... can smaller breeders really afford to send a single mare to him?

Sidenote, but I realized that Tapit, War Front, nor Curlin made the 140+ list. I didn’t realize their connections were so selective with their books, but I definitely approve. Into Mischief will be just fine.
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Flanders
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Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:10 pm

KatieK101 wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:39 pm
"We are disappointed that The Jockey Club would float this idea without anyone having approached us and asked our opinion," Toffey said. "We obviously breed larger books. If you were to reduce Into Mischief's book, his becomes a very expensive stud fee, and the way it is now works for a lot of smaller breeders."

Maybe I don’t understand the concept of “smaller breeders”, but Into Mischief already stands at $150k... can smaller breeders really afford to send a single mare to him?

Sidenote, but I realized that Tapit, War Front, nor Curlin made the 140+ list. I didn’t realize their connections were so selective with their books, but I definitely approve. Into Mischief will be just fine.
War Front has never covered exceptionally large books. I think his largest book was 111, I would guess his average was around 100 mares, in 2018 he covered 82 mares.
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