California Chrome to Japan

swale1984
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Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:23 pm

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:23 pm
swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
Steve Haskin shared his thoughts on this situation on facebook (I don't see them on Bloodhorse though). Basically, what he wrote was what he said on At the Races:
1) American breeders don't give stallions a chance to fail.
2) We've gotten away from racing ina sporting model and into racing as a business model--focused on quick return.

I agree with his points. We also see that the breeding industry only really cares about the sire and the dam. The rest of the family could be Eclipse winners, but if the sire and (sometimes) the dam aren't popular, then the offspring don't sell. That's the case with Chrome. Lucky Pulpit is closely related to Unbridled's Song (their dams were half sisters). Lucky Pulpit is also by Pulpit, the SAME sire as leading sire Tapit. Love the Chase's tail female line is pretty much Phipps/Claiborne mares (and anyone who has studied pedigrees knows that those are great lines, no matter how successful the mares were on the track). But, the breeders see "Lucky Pulpit" "Love the Chase" and see the "price" to breed Chrome, and dismissed him from the get-go.

Idk about you all, but I'm tired of the American thoroughbred model. I'm thinking I need to just focus on European, Australian and Japanese racing. At least their horses are bred for longevity and run for more than 6 races.
Thank you. Very well stated. Does a pedigree make a successful sire, or does a successful sire make his pedigree? Take Pioneerof The Nile for a single example. Had only 10 starts, 5 wins including the Santa Anita Derby. Was sired by the beautifully bred but unremarkable sire (at the time), Empire Maker, who was also shipped off to Japan. Pioneer's female family was very unremarkable. The closest any of the mares in his tail female family came to winning a G1 was a 2nd in the Black Eye Susan by his 5th dam. Pioneer's broodmare sire, Lord at War, was a useful but also unremarkable sire. Pioneer likely would not be a fashionable commercial name in a pedigree today were it not for American Pharoah and Classic Empire.
Thanks, Ridan. I've been a student of pedigree for over a decade, so I really dig into them, especially colts on the TC trail. (One of the reasons I'm a fan of Chrome and not of AP or Justify is based on the quality of the tail female bloodlines). I feel this is a HUGE misstep by the syndicate, as there is a LOT of upside that the breeders here are failing to see. The Japanese look at his accomplishments, and probably recognize that they are (in their eyes) getting a huge bargain with that female family in his 3rd and 4th generation. Heck, the double of Numbered Account is reason enough to value him as a sire!

I must correct my mistake in my first post, though. The Phipps/Claiborne mares are only in Not For Love's pedigree, so the tail female line on Chrome is a bit more modest, although his 3rd dam was also the dam of the MSW Mare Amourette, and Bloodlines.net also notes that his family, A4, is one of the best in American racing, having produced Derby winners Clyde Van Dusen, Kauai King, Iron Liege, Swaps, and California Chrome. It's also produced the phenomenal mares Countess Wanda, Courtly Dee, Althea, Aurora (granddam of Blame).
RugbyGirl
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:51 am

Arrow Stud have visiting hours during the off season. Someone could make a fortune organising tours to Japan for the Chromies...
Ask me any questions you have about New Zealand and Australia racing
katmandu
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:12 am

swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:23 pm
I must correct my mistake in my first post, though. The Phipps/Claiborne mares are only in Not For Love's pedigree, so the tail female line on Chrome is a bit more modest, although his 3rd dam was also the dam of the MSW Mare Amourette, and Bloodlines.net also notes that his family, A4, is one of the best in American racing, having produced Derby winners Clyde Van Dusen, Kauai King, Iron Liege, Swaps, and California Chrome. It's also produced the phenomenal mares Countess Wanda, Courtly Dee, Althea, Aurora (granddam of Blame).
Just a small correction to this. Chase It Down, the dam of Love the Chase, was by Polish Numbers, Phipps through and through. So 3/4 Phipps blood, if you will.
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Miss Woodford
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:18 am

swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
Idk about you all, but I'm tired of the American thoroughbred model. I'm thinking I need to just focus on European, Australian and Japanese racing. At least their horses are bred for longevity and run for more than 6 races.
Not the Europeans who also retire their top 3yos every year like clockwork (looking at you Coolmore) and have even more issues with lack of genetic diversity and predominance of only a few stallions than we do. And definitely not the Australians who focus on 2yo racing and sprinters to the point where they can't win the Melbourne Cup anymore and have the same issues with inbreeding as the Europeans do because they use the same stallions. It's pretty much the Japanese and maybe Turkey who still breed to race.
CorridorZ75
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:45 am

Honestly a racing tour of Japan along with seeing Chrome would be a helluva lot of fun.

I was just looking over some pedigrees and realized that Swept Overboard' s 4th BM sire is Swaps. Pretty far back, but it might do to try to see how a cross goes. Transcend is also from the same female family as is Mind Your Biscuits, so it should be interesting to see if BMs from these and vice versa might click. In Chile, he was seeing quite a few BMs by Morning Raider a brother of Covfefe, who is from the Courtly Dee branch of the female family so Japan will get a bit of a preview to see how it turns out.

Another BM sire down in SAM would have been Nor For Sale, but I am not sure if any of his daughters went to Chrome. However, I find him interesting for another reason. He has Swaps 3x4, but really it is the fact his BM sire Laramie Trail is a son of Wildwook while his own grandsire is Caro, and it is fun to see families crossing in different ways with equal success, since Caro sired Cozzene on Wildwook daughter Ride The Trails. And of course, in Chrome's pedigree, you again get a pretty successful meeting of Swaps through both himself and his female family and Cozzene/Caro. And with Swaps himself getting Change Water on Wildwook's granddam Portage, that whole little genetic stew bubbles nicely.
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Northport
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:55 am

Miss Woodford wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:18 am
swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
Idk about you all, but I'm tired of the American thoroughbred model. I'm thinking I need to just focus on European, Australian and Japanese racing. At least their horses are bred for longevity and run for more than 6 races.
Not the Europeans who also retire their top 3yos every year like clockwork (looking at you Coolmore) and have even more issues with lack of genetic diversity and predominance of only a few stallions than we do. And definitely not the Australians who focus on 2yo racing and sprinters to the point where they can't win the Melbourne Cup anymore and have the same issues with inbreeding as the Europeans do because they use the same stallions. It's pretty much the Japanese and maybe Turkey who still breed to race.
This. It's especially frustrating in Australia. In my opinion, there are too many Australian group races, especially group 1. So when a colt, superstar or otherwise, snags a G1 at anything over a mile and quarter or less, you can assume he won't race as a 4 year old.
Last edited by Northport on Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
weeeeeeeee
carole
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:56 am

Miss Woodford wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:18 am
swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
Idk about you all, but I'm tired of the American thoroughbred model. I'm thinking I need to just focus on European, Australian and Japanese racing. At least their horses are bred for longevity and run for more than 6 races.
Not the Europeans who also retire their top 3yos every year like clockwork (looking at you Coolmore) and have even more issues with lack of genetic diversity and predominance of only a few stallions than we do. And definitely not the Australians who focus on 2yo racing and sprinters to the point where they can't win the Melbourne Cup anymore and have the same issues with inbreeding as the Europeans do because they use the same stallions. It's pretty much the Japanese and maybe Turkey who still breed to race.
Yep, I was going to comment the same thing. What’s even worse about European breeding now is that distance sires are starting to get disregarded in favour of sprinters/milers. Going down the same route as American breeding unfortunately.
TapitsGal
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:43 am

On Facebook Taylor Made has been nicknamed Traitor Made...when will the crazies give it a rest? The farm has done absolutely nothing WRONG except that they accepted an offer I predicted would be coming along soon in Chromes career...when the horse FIRST went to stud I predicted that he was going to be sold overseas a year or two down the road. I predicted that Chrome just wasn't going to sire the big, flashy, yearlings people snap up at sales...I figured they'd look at Love the Chase(who really HASN'T thrown much since chrome) and also look at Chromes female side of his family and back away...there's just too many other GOOD stallions in Chromes fee range with good, proven, female families that breeders could go to
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CoronadosQuest
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Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:13 pm

TapitsGal wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 10:43 am
On Facebook Taylor Made has been nicknamed Traitor Made...when will the crazies give it a rest? The farm has done absolutely nothing WRONG except that they accepted an offer I predicted would be coming along soon in Chromes career...when the horse FIRST went to stud I predicted that he was going to be sold overseas a year or two down the road. I predicted that Chrome just wasn't going to sire the big, flashy, yearlings people snap up at sales...I figured they'd look at Love the Chase(who really HASN'T thrown much since chrome) and also look at Chromes female side of his family and back away...there's just too many other GOOD stallions in Chromes fee range with good, proven, female families that breeders could go to
AND it wasn't even Taylor Made alone.. it was 50 people who voted! They need to give it a rest. It isn't their horse. Plenty of very talented racehorses have gone overseas. I remember how devastated I was when Coronado's Quest & Silver Charm went to Japan but I didn't threaten anybody or go all psycho on the farms. As long as the horses are healthy and happy, I'm fine. Its sad, for sure, but there are far worse scenarios that could happen to them than traveling across the world.
swale1984
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Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:43 pm

Miss Woodford wrote:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:18 am
swale1984 wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:42 pm
Idk about you all, but I'm tired of the American thoroughbred model. I'm thinking I need to just focus on European, Australian and Japanese racing. At least their horses are bred for longevity and run for more than 6 races.
Not the Europeans who also retire their top 3yos every year like clockwork (looking at you Coolmore) and have even more issues with lack of genetic diversity and predominance of only a few stallions than we do. And definitely not the Australians who focus on 2yo racing and sprinters to the point where they can't win the Melbourne Cup anymore and have the same issues with inbreeding as the Europeans do because they use the same stallions. It's pretty much the Japanese and maybe Turkey who still breed to race.
I was thinking about Winx, Hartnell, Chataqua, etc. And I did say longevity, not stamina. I'm in a FB group run by a pedigree consultant in Australia, and several of the members bemoan the sad state of the Australian breeding industry.

As for the Euros, yes Coolmore rushes them off to the shed, but Juddmonte and Godolphin don't always do that. It's not perfect, but it's often better racing than we have here.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:45 am

Steve Haskin has written a very thoughtful article about Chrome's sale. Here's the link: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-ra ... story.aspx

There are other tributes to Chrome starting to appear on blogs. This is one that Steve linked in his comments below his Bloodhorse piece: https://www.justinehrman.com/blog/calif ... me-with-me

Yes, in this internet era when restraint seems to have become an archaic quality, a minority overreact in a nasty way. But it's a mistake to overlook the thousands of comments just expressing love for California Chrome and heartbreak that he was sold to a place nearly all of his legion of fans will never be able to visit. There is anxiety over his well-being, because in Japan he will just be another horse and won't have the kind of close human interaction he has thrived on his whole life.
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Northport
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:35 am

Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:45 am
Steve Haskin has written a very thoughtful article about Chrome's sale. Here's the link: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-ra ... story.aspx

There are other tributes to Chrome starting to appear on blogs. This is one that Steve linked in his comments below his Bloodhorse piece: https://www.justinehrman.com/blog/calif ... me-with-me

Yes, in this internet era when restraint seems to have become an archaic quality, a minority overreact in a nasty way. But it's a mistake to overlook the thousands of comments just expressing love for California Chrome and heartbreak that he was sold to a place nearly all of his legion of fans will never be able to visit. There is anxiety over his well-being, because in Japan he will just be another horse and won't have the kind of close human interaction he has thrived on his whole life.
Sorry but that has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen here. The moment JS Company bought Chrome, he became the most valuable and accomplished (race record wise) stallion that they have, and potentially ever have had. To think that he will be treated as anything besides exceptionally is, to be honest, baloney.
weeeeeeeee
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Private Thoughts
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:56 am

Thank you for the links Ridan.

Wonderful article which I makes me feel that not everyone in this industry is so cold and uncaring. Many on this site are so dismissive and demeaning of those of us who are upset Chrome and so many of our other champions, male and female, are sold to Japan. We’re told it’s business, he’s not our property and he will have s good home. All true. But I for one want our champions to stay here and contribute to the improvement of AMERICA’s bloodstock. What’s wrong with that. They should have sent Justify to Japan, but no that fragile 6 race wonder is held up as a holy grail. No wonder our bred is in decline, look what the industry values, fragile and short careered pretty boys.

Part of a comment pretty much sums it up for me,

“Yet the industry seems incapable of saving itself. Selling Chrome overseas is another massive public relations disaster. If there isn't room for a horse like Chrome in this vast country of his birth, then the question has to be asked. Is the industry worth saving? Does his syndicate have the right to sell him? Of course! Who knows. Perhaps it was a wise business decision on their part. Yet it gives the industry another severe black eye at a time when it could use all the public good will it can muster. Chrome embodies everything this industry needs, but does not value. There has to be more than just business to Thoroughbred racing and breeding in this country. There has to be heart and soul. There has to be warmth and joy, not just stories about drugs, dead horses and massively loved equine heroes tossed aside like yesterday's toys. If there isn't, then what's the point?”
carole
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:24 pm

I don’t know that selling Chrome is a public relations disaster. It’s not like the horse was in the news at the time, he only hit racing headlines (I’ve yet to see an article from mainstream media about this because they obviously don’t care, unlike when horses die on the racetrack) because of his sale.

At the end of the day, yes Chrome who was a durable fast racehorse, could potentially be exactly what the American breeding needs. But his pedigree suggests he was sort of a fluke and American breeders weren’t willing to take the risk (even if it could have paid off). Japanese breeders will more than likely support him very well and he’ll get the best chance possible at reproducing himself or better. Realistically he wouldn’t have had that chance in the US.
KatieK101
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:05 pm

Private Thoughts wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:56 am
Thank you for the links Ridan.

Wonderful article which I makes me feel that not everyone in this industry is so cold and uncaring. Many on this site are so dismissive and demeaning of those of us who are upset Chrome and so many of our other champions, male and female, are sold to Japan. We’re told it’s business, he’s not our property and he will have s good home. All true. But I for one want our champions to stay here and contribute to the improvement of AMERICA’s bloodstock. What’s wrong with that. They should have sent Justify to Japan, but no that fragile 6 race wonder is held up as a holy grail. No wonder our bred is in decline, look what the industry values, fragile and short careered pretty boys.

Part of a comment pretty much sums it up for me,

“Yet the industry seems incapable of saving itself. Selling Chrome overseas is another massive public relations disaster. If there isn't room for a horse like Chrome in this vast country of his birth, then the question has to be asked. Is the industry worth saving? Does his syndicate have the right to sell him? Of course! Who knows. Perhaps it was a wise business decision on their part. Yet it gives the industry another severe black eye at a time when it could use all the public good will it can muster. Chrome embodies everything this industry needs, but does not value. There has to be more than just business to Thoroughbred racing and breeding in this country. There has to be heart and soul. There has to be warmth and joy, not just stories about drugs, dead horses and massively loved equine heroes tossed aside like yesterday's toys. If there isn't, then what's the point?”
Thanks for saying this. I think there are a lot of people who are more upset by this than they let on, simply because they don't want to be grouped with the extreme Chromies. There are many of us who understand he will be treated as royalty in Japan and aren't worried about old horror stories, but want him to stay in America nonetheless.
TBird
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:13 pm

Private Thoughts wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:56 am
Thank you for the links Ridan.

Wonderful article which I makes me feel that not everyone in this industry is so cold and uncaring. Many on this site are so dismissive and demeaning of those of us who are upset Chrome and so many of our other champions, male and female, are sold to Japan. We’re told it’s business, he’s not our property and he will have s good home. All true. But I for one want our champions to stay here and contribute to the improvement of AMERICA’s bloodstock. What’s wrong with that. They should have sent Justify to Japan, but no that fragile 6 race wonder is held up as a holy grail. No wonder our bred is in decline, look what the industry values, fragile and short careered pretty boys.

Part of a comment pretty much sums it up for me,

“Yet the industry seems incapable of saving itself. Selling Chrome overseas is another massive public relations disaster. If there isn't room for a horse like Chrome in this vast country of his birth, then the question has to be asked. Is the industry worth saving? Does his syndicate have the right to sell him? Of course! Who knows. Perhaps it was a wise business decision on their part. Yet it gives the industry another severe black eye at a time when it could use all the public good will it can muster. Chrome embodies everything this industry needs, but does not value. There has to be more than just business to Thoroughbred racing and breeding in this country. There has to be heart and soul. There has to be warmth and joy, not just stories about drugs, dead horses and massively loved equine heroes tossed aside like yesterday's toys. If there isn't, then what's the point?”
So far it's still guesswork, but America's TB breeders have looked at what California Chrome is producing and found themselves doubtful that he has the capacity to improve American bloodstock. Fewer than 10% of new stallions tried at stud turn to be useful sires--by which I mean that the majority of their offspring have the potential to be good runners. That means 90% fail the test.

Between CC's lack of family (and yes, I mean immediate family) and his conformation he started with two strikes against him. Nevertheless, hundreds of breeders were willing to take a chance on him. Now let's do the math. $40,000 stud fee. Cost of a mare worth that high a stud fee? Let's be conservative and say $100,000. Upkeep for mare, breeding costs, vanning, vet costs, upkeep for foal until he is sold or old enough to put into training...assuming nothing goes wrong (a big if) add say, another $40,000.

So, even if a breeder already owns the mare, it's still costing him around $80,000 to get himself a yearling by CC. For that amount of money spent, that yearling better look like a damn good athlete. Did they? No. Hence California Chrome's sales prices.

It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain. It's a lot harder to spend almost 100k producing a horse that doesn't look he's going to be a racehorse. That's a big ouch.

Breeders, buyers, and pinhookers have been wrong before. Maybe they'll be wrong this time too. We'll all find out next year and the year after. But in the meantime, the pool of people willing to spend that 80K (in real life money) has now shrunk dramatically. Breeders have to be gamblers by nature, but they're not stupid. How many time could you afford to throw that kind of money away?
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ThreeMustangs
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:26 pm

As a sire, I think CC may turn out like a horse I loved even more: Holy Bull. Both were outstanding racehorses who outran their pedigrees--you could even call them freaks. Their siblings--meh. There was no way Holy Bull was ever going to reproduce himself and I doubt CC will, either. But I wish CC the best and hope he proves the "establishment" wrong.
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Palace Malice
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:05 pm

A great racehorse that had a long and successful career and won on both surface... I think he will do great in Japan!

With the death of both Deep Impact and King Kamehameha I think that Japan is looking for their next superstar stallion ;) Animal Kingdom, Brick And Mortar, Hawkbill, California Chrome etc... Next year roster is gonna be amazing :D
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Ridan_Remembered
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:20 pm

TBird wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 2:13 pm
Private Thoughts wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:56 am
Thank you for the links Ridan.

Wonderful article which I makes me feel that not everyone in this industry is so cold and uncaring. Many on this site are so dismissive and demeaning of those of us who are upset Chrome and so many of our other champions, male and female, are sold to Japan. We’re told it’s business, he’s not our property and he will have s good home. All true. But I for one want our champions to stay here and contribute to the improvement of AMERICA’s bloodstock. What’s wrong with that. They should have sent Justify to Japan, but no that fragile 6 race wonder is held up as a holy grail. No wonder our bred is in decline, look what the industry values, fragile and short careered pretty boys.

Part of a comment pretty much sums it up for me,

“Yet the industry seems incapable of saving itself. Selling Chrome overseas is another massive public relations disaster. If there isn't room for a horse like Chrome in this vast country of his birth, then the question has to be asked. Is the industry worth saving? Does his syndicate have the right to sell him? Of course! Who knows. Perhaps it was a wise business decision on their part. Yet it gives the industry another severe black eye at a time when it could use all the public good will it can muster. Chrome embodies everything this industry needs, but does not value. There has to be more than just business to Thoroughbred racing and breeding in this country. There has to be heart and soul. There has to be warmth and joy, not just stories about drugs, dead horses and massively loved equine heroes tossed aside like yesterday's toys. If there isn't, then what's the point?”
It's easy to sit behind a keyboard and complain. It's a lot harder to spend almost 100k producing a horse that doesn't look he's going to be a racehorse. That's a big ouch.
Although your points are valid, they miss the real point by a mile. Look at this. Even the well-know racing photographer, Gary Tasich, has a tribute to Chrome on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/gary.tasich?__ ... tion=group

He isn't the only person in the racing industry who has posted tributes to Chrome. The outpouring of sadness, love and tributes to Chrome is massive. Most people can understand the business side that you described. For them, it isn't about business. It's about the love of a very, very special horse.
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Ridan_Remembered
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Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:29 pm

Northport wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:35 am
Ridan_Remembered wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 7:45 am
Steve Haskin has written a very thoughtful article about Chrome's sale. Here's the link: http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/horse-ra ... story.aspx

There are other tributes to Chrome starting to appear on blogs. This is one that Steve linked in his comments below his Bloodhorse piece: https://www.justinehrman.com/blog/calif ... me-with-me

Yes, in this internet era when restraint seems to have become an archaic quality, a minority overreact in a nasty way. But it's a mistake to overlook the thousands of comments just expressing love for California Chrome and heartbreak that he was sold to a place nearly all of his legion of fans will never be able to visit. There is anxiety over his well-being, because in Japan he will just be another horse and won't have the kind of close human interaction he has thrived on his whole life.
Sorry but that has to be one of the most ridiculous posts I've seen here. The moment JS Company bought Chrome, he became the most valuable and accomplished (race record wise) stallion that they have, and potentially ever have had. To think that he will be treated as anything besides exceptionally is, to be honest, baloney.
You entirely misunderstood what I was saying in the segment you highlighted. Of course they will take good care of him, but Chrome has been used to close human contact since birth. The Japanese will not see him that way. Did you know that the TM stallion manager taught Chrome to bow? What other breeding TB stallion do you know who has such a charismatic show-horse type personality and is so willing to engage with people? This kind of interaction is what I meant. Anyway, I'm sort of tired of trying to convince folks with your mindset about this horse. It doesn't matter any more. He will go there, service their mares, and if he lives long enough to reach pension age, maybe he'll return to TM. Nothing more to say.
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