Is American Pharoah a turf sire

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Altanbarr
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Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:55 pm

Has anyone noticed that AP is looking like a very good turf sire but a bust as a dirt sire? No stake winners on dirt. Only one stakes horse from 42 runners on dirt. Four stakes winners (3 graded) on turf with 10 stakes horses on turf. AP had 14 winners on dirt, but no repeat winners.



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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=600&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=1&sbYear=2019&srt=500&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot
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mariasmon
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Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:35 pm

Altanbarr wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:55 pm
Has anyone noticed that AP is looking like a very good turf sire but a bust as a dirt sire? No stake winners on dirt. Only one stakes horse from 42 runners on dirt. Four stakes winners (3 graded) on turf with 10 stakes horses on turf. AP had 14 winners on dirt, but no repeat winners.



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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=0&sbYear=2019&srt=600&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot

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https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/tdn-sire-stats/?txbYear=2019&crops=1&sbYear=2019&srt=500&nao=3&txbFR=NHB&fr=NHB&ob=1&cy=0&naocy=3&frcy=NHB&obcy=1#tot
Maybe it has more to do with A) the mares bred to him, and B) how his offspring have been campaigned.
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Flanders
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Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:29 pm

He got another SP dirt horse with Prince of Pharoahs in the Jerome. I think we'll see more dirt horses by him in 2020. He has some spectacularly bred 3yos that haven't started yet.
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Northport
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Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:58 pm

Coolmore was built on stallions who could sire runners on turf and dirt. They pioneered it by importing sons of Northern Dancer to win on the turf and stand in Ireland. Then their top American based stallions like Giant's Causeway and Scat Daddy have proved to be able to sire winners on any surface at almost any distance. I think they are setting Pharoah up to be next in line by sending him top turf mares and putting the resulting offspring in training at Ballydoyle.

Maybe he's leaning a little too much on the turf side of things now, but a lot of the most precocious 2 year olds these days are turf sprinters, which is a division that has rapidly expanded on both sides of the Atlantic and is something Pharoah has been able to supply.
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Mylute
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:26 am

Also reminder that in recent times the juvenile turf races have produced Triple Crown and other top dirt stakes runners. Some notable examples include War of Will, Catholic Boy, etc.
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RugbyGirl
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:19 am

mariasmon wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:35 pm
Maybe it has more to do with A) the mares bred to him, and B) how his offspring have been campaigned.
I wonder if this was a deliberate move from Coolmore to breed turf mares to AP in his first season. His first Australian yearlings will go through the sale ring next week and it is fair to say with his turf success there is huge hype for his Australian progeny

https://breednet.com.au/news/9043/First ... an-Pharoah
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Altanbarr
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:59 pm

As Flanders notes, AP could turn things around with a few big horses. But, given AP's access to quality mares, no stakes winners and no multiple winners out of 42 runners on dirt should be concerning to those who have invested in AP or his offspring.. Eighteen other first year sires had stakes winners on dirt, many with far fewer dirt runners than AP.
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Starine
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:19 pm

I hope the American Pharoahs are well received at the Magic Millions. There are quite a few lookers but I'm really taken with the Papillon colt.

And I still hold out hope he'll throw a really good main track horse. ;)
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Diver52
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:26 pm

American Theorem is back galloping and should breeze soon. ;)

I think AP will do just fine with dirt runners. . . although he did have another turf MSW winner today at SA! (Phast Pharoah.)
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Starine
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:38 pm

Diver52 wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:26 pm
American Theorem is back galloping and should breeze soon. ;)

I think AP will do just fine with dirt runners. . . although he did have another turf MSW winner today at SA! (Phast Pharoah.)
Good to know about American Theorem -- he has shown potential.

And I finally caught a replay of Phast Pharoah -- goodness, he is certainly one of the darkest liver chestnuts I have ever seen.
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Mylute
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Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:52 pm

Starine wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:19 pm
I hope the American Pharoahs are well received at the Magic Millions. There are quite a few lookers but I'm really taken with the Papillon colt.

And I still hold out hope he'll throw a really good main track horse. ;)
I like the chestnut Jazz Song one, the one out of Peaceful Sea is very racy, and the one out of Derelique looks like dad.
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Treve
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:57 pm

The no winners doesn't paint the whole picture given he has several graded (and even G1) placed runners on dirt, he's knocking on the door, and as some have pointed out, some of his best bred offspring haven't started yet.
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Starine
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Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:34 pm

Bloodlines Presented By The Virginia Thoroughbred Association: American Pharoah Off To Soaring Start
https://www.paulickreport.com/features/ ... ing-start/
The most surprising aspect of American Pharoah's stud career to date is that all his stakes winners showed their form on turf, with only stakes-placed American Theorem getting a premium placing on dirt. This may mean relatively little in the long run, but the obvious fact that the horse's stock race well on turf has elevated his profile among breeders and buyers in Europe and Australia, where nearly all the racing is on turf. That is going to make the American Pharoah stock all the more popular around the globe, especially if they progress as expected into their second season of racing.
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