Liam Neeson defends NYC Carriage Horse industry

Kelly Kip
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Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:18 am

Mon Aug 04, 2014 12:56 pm

The Carriage Horses: Horseshit And The Boundaries Of Protest

A friend of mine in the carriage horse trade posted a story online about a farmer who dumped a truckload of horse manure in front of the French National Assembly to protest the policies of the French government. The police arrived and hauled the farmer off before he could drop the entire load, but he made his point and it was a big one. The manure dump was a major sensation in France, it was covered everywhere and almost universally celebrated and applauded. The farmer touched a deep nerve, it was a classic moment in the rich history of protest.

My friend in the carriage trade was a bit horrified, I think, he said the carriage horse owners and drivers would never do anything that negative, if they ever protested at all. The dropping of manure would simply annoy the public and turn them away from their cause. I think I made him somewhat uncomfortable, my gift to the world.

I said I thought it would be great to take a wagon load of good horse manure – I have great donkey manure – from the carriage horse stables and dump them in front of the offices of PETA or NYClass, the animal rights groups seeking to ban the horses from New York and put hundreds of people out of work for no legal reason. it is after all, where horseshit would be much at home.

The people in the carriage trade are not like the kids from the Occupy Wall Street movement that called for global revolution. They are not barefoot anarchists without a particular cause or purpose. They are just like us, our neighbors, friends and family members. They are generally conservative, immigrants or the descendants of immigrants, they are clannish and generally averse to conflict. They have a just cause and a powerful case to make.

Their caution and reticence is why the animal rights movement had nearly carte blanche to abuse them for years, accusing them of all sorts of things that were not true, or were grossly distorted. A compliant and generally clueless media was happy to relay these many falsehoods as if there was some truth to them.

Almost everyone in New York – me, too- assumed the horses were being cruelly overworked and mistreated. I had no idea that the horses got five weeks of vacation, worked an average of six hours a day, had heated and air-conditioned stalls and were healthy and lived a good long time – longer than horses in the wild or on rescue farms.

In the past year, the carriage trade has begun to fight back, organizing their own media, standing in their truth, making their own statements and they have turned public opinion around in New York, uniting the fractious city to an almost unprecedented degree. 66 per cent of New Yorkers want the horses to stay, so do all three newspapers, the labor unions and the Chamber Of Commerce. Nobody can remember when there was that kind of unanimity about anything in New York. The mayor, who refuses to meet with the carriage trade people, visit the stables or communicate with them in any way – he is happy to talk to the millionaire animal rights activists seeking to banish them – says he does not care what what the people of New York think, he has his own mandate.

Still, protest and media management are not natural gears for the people in the carriage trade, they prefer to work and raise their families.

The animal rights groups are ingenuous, if not especially fact driven or congenial, they have taken the idea of the protest to a whole new level. They don't really have much to protest – there is absolutely no evidence that the horses in the carriage trade are being abused – but they demonstrate continuously, usually weekly, mostly just shouting insults at the carriage drivers and the tourists and kids who want to go for rides and holding up photos of horses who fell down years ago. It is true in our world that if you repeat lies loudly and frequently, people will eventually come to believe them, the Internet is the great friend of the lie in many ways.

Is there a better cause for protest than this issue of the carriage horses for anyone who loves animals and the freedom to choose our own way of life?

Protest is not radical or offensive. America was founded on protest and civil disobedience, the founding fathers believed it is the citizen's duty to protest and defy arrogant and abusive government. Henry David Thoreau wrote that "the government is best which governs least," and he went to jail rather than pay taxes to support slavery.

Creative protest has taken many twists and turns in America. The patriots went out to Boston harbor to toss tea overboard because of a governmental authority seeking to take the colonists livelihood and way of life away – much the same issues the carriage trade faces. The first feminists rode bareback through the capitol and disrupted Congress to focus attention on women's rights. Martin Luther King (and Gandhi before him) understood the power of focused and non-violent and symbolic protest, they accomplished more than massive armies with many guns. King believed it was an honor and a duty to protest injustice, and his notions of creative protest worked. He did more with his marches and protests than politicians and legislators did in centuries.

The horses have been visiting me in the night again, and their message is both vivid and clear. They are showing me images of scores of them blocking off the entrance to Central Park, standing in beautiful and powerful and silent protest to the indefensible effort to banish them from the city and ban the people who own them, seize their property and force them into work they do not want – driving vintage electric cars around the park. Banning honest and hard-working people is not the business of government,

I also see children all around the horses – every child on the earth would wish the horses to stay, if anyone would listen to them – standing with them as they seal off the park and shut down the traffic all around them.

It is an unacceptable thing to be banned for no reason other than that a millionaire with an angry obsession has purchased a mayor's will in back rooms and hotel ballrooms.

In contemporary culture, many Americans think protest is posting an angry message on Facebook. Politics means signing a petition or hitting the "like" button. But creative and brave protest is as honored and patriotic an American idea as Fourth of July parades. We have just gotten out of the habit of going outside.

I don't quite agree with my cautious friend from the carriage trade, although I understand his caution. When I began researching and writing about this story, I had an open mind about it, like most people, I expected to find the horses in rough shape, worn out and abused, as I had been hearing.

Instead, what I found was a conspiracy of lies that made me angry and makes me angry still. This controversy is an injustice, it should never have happened, there is nothing to it or behind it.

PETA and NYClass – along with their newly-radicalized lapdogs in the S.P.C.A. U.S. Humane Society – have lied repeatedly, distorted the truth about minor and meaningless events, utterly misrepresented both the real lives of the horses and the ways in which they are cared for. They have exploited the good will of animal lovers everywhere by manipulating dishonest imagery in order to collect money. They have taken a handful of minor and utterly predictable events and sought to portray these gentle beasts as dangerous and destructive, an awful thing to do to and a libel to these gentle and domesticated and hard-working animals.

They have damaged and corrupted the political process by working in secret to flood the decision-making process with money and circumvent any kind of openness, due process or fairness. They are putting hundreds of horses in thoughtless and unnecessary danger misled the public. These are not the horses that need rescue, these are not the people who abuse animals.

I want to tell my carriage horse friends that creative protest is not an ugly or unseemly thing to do. It is the essence of being American, what we can do when government goes too far, what we ought to do.

I would happily donate some of the good and pungent manure that comes to the farm every day from my three donkeys, and from the sheep as well. There is a lot of it and it is good stuff, you could smell it from the NYClass office right to the stables. I think it is the perfect statement to make to people for whom horseshit is standard practice, a means of communicating, an ethical state of being. I would be happy to load up a truck and drop it off myself. Martin Luther King said there are times when civil disobedience is the most heroic thing a citizen can do for his country.

And think of the impact. It would be an overnight sensation on Facebook, and Twitter, it might well awaken many people to the true horseshit – this utterly pointless assault on people who are doing what people have done for thousands of years – working with horses that they value and care for.

And if they hauled me and my manure off to jail, I would be proud, I would think of Thoreau, sitting in his cell.

"Must the citizen for a moment, or in the least degree, resign his conscience to the legislator? Why has every man a conscience, then? I think that we should be men [and women] first, and subjects afterward. It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right."

The flies would have to come too.
 ... f-protest/
Kelly Kip
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Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:30 am

Going To New York: The Last Stand Of The Carriage Horses

A friend asked me why I am going to New York City today when there are many closer, cheaper, easier places to go. I think he was worried that New York isn't the most restful place for me right now. I told him there were lots of reasons – I love New York, the people, the food, the culture there. But I told him the truth was partly that I feel I need to go to New York to see the horses now, to take pictures of the drivers, of the carriages in the great park. The horses are in their greatest danger, they are calling out to the world to pay attention.

It is, truly, an epochal time in the life of animals in our world. The horses sensed it from the first. Chief Avrol Looking Horse of the Sioux Nation told me of a great dance held many years ago, in which the horses appeared to dance and to say goodbye, they knew they were about to be slaughtered and driven from the world by human beings who had no work for them. One day, said a big and beautiful gray stallion, when they were most needed, they would return.

I believe they are needed now, I believe their spirits have returned.

The last stand of the big horses in America. New York is the big stage, other groups in other cities are already mobilizing to ban carriage horses there, ignorance is infectious, it spreads like any virus.

America seems to have lost it's mind and it's memory when it comes to keeping animals in our world, or acknowledging the role these wonderful creatures have had in our history and our lives. Can it really be that the world's first democracy seeks to take these wonderful beings away from us and destroy the livelihood and way of life and seize the private property of people who have done no wrong, committed no crimes, played by all of the rules of our society?

They are coming for the horses, and they are coming for the ponies and elephants and working dogs and chickens on farms and so many other animals who used to live and exist among us. Soon enough, they will be coming for you, for the animals in your world, for the way in which you live with them and love them. Soon enough, they will be entering your world, your life and telling you how to live and taking the animals you love a way from you and removing them from our lives. It is not a paranoid fantasy, it is here. It is the life of every carriage horse owner and driver and every horse today in New York. It is happening right now.

It is why the carriage horse issue is so important.

The most powerful and wealthy forces in the city – the mayor, his millionaire friends, the groups who claim to speak for animals rights – say they are determined to ban the horses from New York forever, they insist they do not belong there, and they say they will do it soon, perhaps in the next week or so. The people in the carriage trade are tired, worried – they do not have a lot of money, they are not media or political warriors, they can't pay their bills for weeks, even days, if they are banned.

There are rumors that they have hired a lawyer, are preparing to fight back, but they have said nothing in public, they are keeping their own counsel. They are clannish in that way, uncertain and unfamiliar with the primal laws of media conflict. I believe strongly that if they fight, they will win. There is no logic, justice or rationale to the movement to ban the horses, I do not believe it will stand. But I am not in New York, I am not a carriage horse driver, I have not been battered and threatened and harassed for years, forced to live in confusion and uncertainty.

There are many things to be concerned about in New York or the world today – the headlines call out to us for attention and remedy. It is easy enough to shrug one's shoulders. Who really cares about the big horses, relegated to a corner of life in New York, used mostly to keep children and tourists happy?

I care. I hope you care. There are animal issues and human issues in this story and both are of great importance.

First, if the horses are taken from the city, the cause of animals in our world will be grievously damaged. The greatest right of animals today is not to be confined to rescue ghettos where they will never be seen and have nothing to do but eat hay and drop manure. It is to survive in our world. This is the last stand of the carriage horses, there is literally nowhere else for them to go. Banishment means extinction, if the big horses go, they will soon enough leave the world, as so many other animals have.

We have lost our perspective and priorities. We make room for dogs and cats and people and pedicabs and condos and skyscrapers and cars and trucks and triple decker buses in New York City, we can make room for the horses who have lived in the city for centuries and helped build it. They have done no harm and much good, they bring magic, history and the natural world to the park every single day.

The horses speak to me, they have been speaking to me for months, and they tell me that if they leave the city, our covenant with the earth with be broken, the wind and the rain and the fire shall leave with them. They belong with us, we need them more than we can imagine, especially now when our earth is broken and bleeding. We owe it to the children to keep them, there is not a child or true animal lover on the earth who wishes them to go, who would not miss seeing them, they are the magic and the mystery of the earth, right in the center of our greatest city.

Then there is the human issue, of equal importance. The people in the carriage trade are part of an ancient tradition, people working with horses and animals in partnership. They work hard, pay their taxes, raise their families. They have the right to their way of life, they are not abusers of animals, the working horses are content and healthy, working in the way they have for centuries, working in health with good care and much supervision and oversight.

The horses are not abused, they are not living in misery, they are not sad and piteous. They do not need to be patronized and saved. They are strong and proud animals, doing what they have been bred to do, sharing the joys and travails of life with the people who work with them and care for them, one of the oldest and most storied traditions in the animal world.

So I go to New York for many reasons. One of them is to see the horses, encourage them, record some images of them, look on rich very human faces of the drivers, show my own small and humble flag. To let them know in the smallest of ways there are lots of people who care about them, who are thinking about them, who value justice and truth.

Every day, I get messages from the horses, they call me there, every day. My open heart surgery has not made me timid or reluctant to travel, quite the opposite, it helps me to feel strong and clear and to understand what it is truly important, and if I don't go to New York now, then why ever go?

If the horses are banned, New York and the world will be a darker and less mystical place. We will have cut out a piece of ourselves, our history, our connection to the natural world, and also, our own sense of humanity. We will have betrayed Mother Earth yet again, and broken faith with our fellow citizens, who deserve peace and liberty in their lives. Animals will never benefit from the abuse and mistreatment of people. The horses understand this as well as any creature, they have served human beings since the beginning of time.

On behalf of people. On behalf of animals. ... ge-horses/
Kelly Kip
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Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:59 am

Carriage Horses: The Truth About The Air They Breathe

One of the central elements of the campaign to banish the New York Carriage Horses is the assertion that they are suffering greatly from having to breath the air on the traffic-congested streets of Manhattan. A rational person might suggest the city consider banning some cars rather than the horses, but that's not how our political system works. Over the past weeks, I have been doing some research to try and figure out if the horses really are suffering from "sucking on tailpipes," as the animal rights groups like to say, and if they are falling ill to respiratory or pulmonary disease.

Recently I wrote that Frederick Law Olmstead, the designer of Central Park – much of the park was built for the horses – would be saddened to hear that the city wants to ban horses from Central Park and not the cars or taxis or pedicabs that are allegedly killing them and, presumably, the human beings who jog and bike alongside of them. A woman named Ronnie immediately posted a message on my Facebook page saying that Olmstead would be saddened to see the horses suffering from fumes.

So are the horses really suffering from fumes? And is the air they breathe killing them to the point that they have to be banned so that they can be banished to rescue farms, and even more likely, killed even more brutally in slaughterhouses?

I'll start with this statistic.

In 1885, 9000 horses were put to death by the city of New York. Some were lame, some were sick, some collapsed hauling bricks and lumber, some had heat stroke, others fell into potholes, had colic or glanders, were bitten by rats, caught disease from swarms of flies and mosquitoes, ate raw sewage and animal feces, were killed by daily stable fires or boiler and machine explosions, set upon by dogs and wolves, drank poisonous chemicals in the streets or consumed infected water, were suffocated by chemical emissions from belching factories, ate rotten hay or feed, broke their legs in the hundreds of collisions with other horse-drawn wagons that occurred weekly on unpaved and dusty and crowded streets.

In New York City in2014, no carriage horse died or was put to death as the result of any of these things, including bad air. Ronnie can do the math herself if she wishes (I bet she doesn't.)

The sort of statement Ronnie made so blithely and certainly, and without any facts or data to support it, is familiar to me now in the curious world of the carriage horse controversy, where the horses very existence – and the lives of the hundreds of people who love and work with them – are threatened daily by myth and fantasy. Facts are few and lonely in this ugly debate, truth has been widowed.

I love truth, and I went searching for some.

I'd start with The Horse In The City: Living Machines In The Nineteenth Century, by historians Clay McShane and Joel A. Tarr. It offers the best and most detailed account I have yet read of the lives of the carriage horses more than 100 years ago. It also gives the lie to the idea that the horses are worse off today than they were a century ago, or that the quality of their lives has declined in any way. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth, including the idea that the city's air is more dangerous now than it was for them.

First, I asked the Department of Health, which oversees the care of the horses, if there are any records showing that any of the carriage horses of New York examined in recent years died or fell ill to respiratory disease. The horses are examined regularly – up to four times a year by city veterinarians, and also periodically by outside organizations like equine veterinarians and farriers. A spokesperson told me a small percentage of the carriage horses suffered from respiratory allergies typical of horses everywhere. None had become seriously ill or died from these allergies.

The city's Department of Health says there are no records of any carriage horse suffering or dying from respiratory disease in the past ten years for which records have been kept. The symptoms of respiratory disease in horses are similar to those in humans – coughing, phlegm, wheezing, panting, crackling in the lungs. Insofar as city records show, no carriage horse has ever been found by any veterinarian to be suffering from respiratory disease or lung issues associated with breathing bad air in New York City. Like many of the accusations against the people in the carriage trade, and just to justify the urgent banishment of the horses fro New York, there is simply nothing there beyond the accusations and assertions.

According to McShane and Tarr, the lives of horses in New York City a century ago were sometimes horrifying. For one thing, their research makes clear, the air in the city was poisonous, much worse in many ways than it is now. There were clouds of dust from unpaved streets, smoke from coal and other fires, chemicals poured into the streets, fumes from factories belching fire and smoke, dead and rotting animals in the streets, sewage and mud, manure and human waste, clouds of flies. People riding in horse carriages often held handkerchiefs over their noses to protect from the awful fumes.

As I mentioned earlier, in 1885, more than 9,000 horse deaths were recorded by the city's Department Of Health. These were horses that were put to death for lameness, and died frequently of heat stroke and other toxic afflictions.

The New York Carriage Horses do not work in temperatures over 89 degrees, and the loads they pull – light carriages on rubber wheels on asphalt, mostly in Central Park, are not nearly as heavy as the loads of people and goods, lumber and bricks they pulled in cars on the streets of New York a century ago. Hundreds of horses died each year in the 1900′s stable fires, or were stricken with diseases carried by rats, flies, mosquitoes and mice. Hundreds more broke their legs in the many ruts ad potholes that marked most New York City Streets.

On the animal rights websites, you will read that the horse stables in New York do no have fire alarms. This is false, they all have fire alarms, heat and air-conditioning.

Many horses in the 1900′s died of glanders, a contagious disease. In fact, horses that pulled weight and cargo or who worked on railways died at double the rate of carriage horses. It should be noted that the cab horses of today work an average of six hours a day, almost entirely on shaded streets in Central Park, behaviorists, trainers and equine vets say they do not come close to being over-worked. They spent about 30-45 minutes in transit to and from the park, the rest of their time is spent in the park or in heated and air-conditioned stables. They also get five weeks in the country on their mandated vacations. They get more good air than the vast majority of New Yorkers and have better working conditions than any Amazon warehouse worker in America.

The horses also get five weeks of vacations a day. No carriage horse in modern times has died of heat stroke or overwork. In 2008, John Lowe, a veterinarian from Cornell University, examined 130 carriage horses, he found them to be contented and in good health, they had no more respiratory allergies than horses anywhere have. You can read his report here.


Buck Brannaman, the inspiration for Robert Redford's movie "The Horse Whisperers," and the most famous horse trainer in the country, recounts this story about the carriage horses and a visit to New York in his book "The Faraway Horses:"

"Next on my schedule were a couple of young women from MTV and Rolling Stone magazine. One of them asked, “What about those poor horses in Central Park? Don’t you think it’s awful how they have to pull those heavy carriages all day?”

I had an answer for that question “No, I don’t,” I said, then explained that the Central Park horses are content. Pulling carriages on rubber-rimmed wheels on paved streets is a low-stress job, and the horses are calm and relaxed, not anxiously laying their ears back or wringing their tails. Plus, these horses get lots of attention and affection from passerby. And horses love attention and affection as much as we do.

The horses that people should be concerned about are the neglected ones that, after the “newness” of ownership wears off, live in box stalls all day. These horses have no purpose, no jobs to do. All they do is eat and make manure. Even prisoners get to exercise more than these horses, and the horses have never done anything wrong. If they had the choice, these horses would choose to be carriage horses rather than stand in their stalls."

Brannaman is famous all over the world for his advocacy of humane and positive treatment of horses. It is really conceivable that this horse whisperer would condone the abuse, overwork and suffocation of working horses?


The question of the air the horses breathe is very simple to gauge in one way – the carriage horses in New York live an average of 18 to 20 years, three times the life span of the carriage horses of New York in the 1900′s. They also live longer on average than horses in rescue farms because their health care, work and feeding are so intensely regulated and they have good shelter. The horses I have seen at equine rescue farms do not get nearly the quality of the hay fed the New York Carriage Horses or anything like the medical care and supervision.

According to the Central Park Conservancy, the air in the park is much cleaner than the air in crowded city streets, and has been deemed safe for runners and joggers. The park is, in fact, filled with joggers, bicyclists and walkers who work much harder and strain themselves much more than the carriage horses, who pull their carriages at a slow trot for short distances with mandated breaks every two hours.

If the air is too dangerous in the park for horses, why is it safe for people who jog and run and ride their bikes? The air pollution figures for the city are also sometimes surprising. The city's greenhouse gas emission levels are relatively low when measured per capita, at 7.1 metric tons per person, below San Francisco, at ll.2 metric tons, and the national average, at 24.5. In our world, we all live with some form of air pollution, the struggles of Mother Earth are the great challenge of our time. Horses all over the world breathe much dirtier air than the air in New York City, they are essential to work and the quality of life to millions of people.

The horses cannot be saved from human deprivations any more than people can, and ought not to be banished from our world because of our ignorance and denial and fantasized vies of animals. If the air is no good for them, it is no good for us, and we ought to fix it.

As for you, Ronnie, my wish for you is that you do some homework, seek out your own truth. I'd consider reading "Genius Of Place: The Life Of Frederick Law Olmsted," you will quickly discover for yourself Olmsead's love of the great horses, their centrality in his design of one of the world's great parks. More than anything, he wanted the park and it's many trails to accommodate the big horses, most of them were designed with them in mind. He considered the horses, along the trees and fountains, among the crown jewels of the park.

He imagined the park to be a home and showcase for them forever. What an awful stain on his great achievement to ban them from their city and their park and replace them with electric cards. No, Ronnie, I believe you will understand for yourself that Frederick Law Olmstead would be sad indeed to see that.

The horses are our partners on the earth, just like dogs or police horses. They share the joys and travails of life. They are not struggling to breathe the air in New York City or suffering from their existence there. These are not the horses who need rescue. These are not the people who abuse animals. ... y-breathe/
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Fri Oct 10, 2014 12:58 pm

Yes - do continue saying how well NYC carriage horses are treated.
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Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:18 pm

The issue of Billy's "rescue" has been addressed.

The fact is every horse rolls, they used the idea that he was rolling for the "OMG first time EVER on grass!" with absolutely no reason to believe that was the truth but that it sounded like a magical happy ending.
Kelly Kip
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Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:07 am

Ahhh, the protesters are such kind "tolerant" non-violent folk :?
Kelly Kip
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Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:02 am

NY Times comes out in SUPPORT of the carriage industry!

The Opinion Pages | EDITORIAL

Horse Nonsense From City Hall

Sixth Avenue and Central Park West, New York. Credit Damon Winter/The New York Times
Continue reading the main storyShare This Page
Here is something the New York City Council can do to end 2014 on a high note.

It can vote down Mayor Bill de Blasio’s effort to abolish carriage horses. It can give him the opportunity to move on from the foolish campaign promise to shut down the industry, made last year to a small, loud and financially generous group of horse-rights advocates.

Mr. de Blasio plans to offer a bill on Monday to phase out horse-drawn carriages by mid-2016, and nudge about 300 carriage drivers into new jobs as cabbies.

Details are lacking, but questions are many. Why eliminate an entire class of Teamsters union jobs? How will the horses escape slaughter? What will happen to the stables, on coveted property on the West Side of Manhattan? (Not for nothing do people wonder why the force behind NYClass, the group pushing the anticarriage crusade, is a real estate developer, Stephen Nislick.) And does this have anything to do with the $1 million ad campaign financed by NYClass to eliminate Mr. de Blasio’s main rival in the primary, then-Council Speaker (and carriage defender) Christine Quinn? Why are no advocates talking about getting rid of Police Department horses, which have tougher jobs than carriage horses?

A selective animal-rights pose is an odd position for Mr. de Blasio, who calls himself a defender of unions and small businesses, and whose job it is to promote the city as a place for tourists. Why wipe out a well-loved, well-regulated, law-abiding part of the tourist economy?

So many tough questions. One simple answer: Dump the bill. Keep the horses. ... .html?_r=0
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Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:19 am

I find it quite coincidental that a greenie like De Blasio wants to force those who drive the carriages into a taxi cab, which would mean more "air polluting" vehicles on the roads.
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Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:03 am

I think most people know it isn't about the horses, but (as the Times points out) about the property on which the stables sit. Chicago's trying to eliminate their carriage horses too. They've already made stupid rules regarding horse waste (now the horses have to have a catch under them to catch urine, because business owners were complaining about the smell). Here's hoping that this editorial makes a difference for the NYC carriage horses.
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Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:09 pm

swale1984 wrote:I think most people know it isn't about the horses, but (as the Times points out) about the property on which the stables sit. Chicago's trying to eliminate their carriage horses too. They've already made stupid rules regarding horse waste (now the horses have to have a catch under them to catch urine, because business owners were complaining about the smell). Here's hoping that this editorial makes a difference for the NYC carriage horses.
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Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:51 pm

Not New York, but:
OLD TOWN — A suspicious fire that destroyed 13 horse carriages in Old Town earlier this month has been ruled an arson, Chicago Police confirmed Monday.

Following a lengthy investigation at the former Noble Horse Theater, police handed the case over to the FBI. ... estigating

Found the above on FB page that has more links: ... 1347578859

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Sun Apr 12, 2015 1:33 pm

If the anti-carriage factions thought that objective research would back them up, they're out of luck. ... re-horses/
:D ;)
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Thu Apr 16, 2015 9:27 am

Loos Tales for April 16, 2015 NYC Mayor de Blasio speak in Omaha and talks about the wealthy over the working class as a problem. Yet he wants to eliminate horse/carriage owners, the working class. ... 0_27-07_00
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Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:24 pm

There has been a deal made to settle the 'question' of Central Park's carriage horses. ... tral-park/
My take-away:
1) The new 'deal' allows the carriage horses to continue to work, supposedly out of a yet-to-be-built new stable, which one hopes will be a nice new barn, with airy, spacious stalls. There will also be time limits for how long a horse can work in a day. That's nice, but...
2) The new barn will only house 75 horses, with the number of licensed horses cut to 95, instead of 180. So, nearly 100 horses will be out of a job, homeless, and likely at risk of being trucked to Canada. :( :evil: And I wonder how many carriage owners will be squeezed out of their profession?
3) The developers get their hands on that prime real estate that the present stables are sitting on, so the money they have been spending on lobbyists to pressure the mayor has been well-spent.
Last edited by BaroqueAgain1 on Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:09 pm

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Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:17 pm

Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:25 pm

The real stink of the deal was that the stables to be built in the park hadn't been approved yet, so the industry would have been blindly believing that they'd be taken care of in that regard, and that the city wouldn't turn right around and tell them to get out once the original stables were sold. Furthermore, the reduced number of horses would have meant fewer board payments to the current stable owners, which would have pressured them to sell the stables before the promised one in CP was built. It was never a deal to save the carriage horses, it was a plot to end them.

de Blasio is still pushing to move this bill through. Of course he is, the real estate mongol who paid him off demands it.
Posts: 2083
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:05 pm

Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:45 pm ... n-the-job/

well, this'll give those against carriage horses some fire. the horse seems to be fine though so maybe not?
Posts: 480
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:00 pm

Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 am

At least Goldie knew the way home ;)
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