Santa Anita 2019

hadrianmarcus
Posts: 256
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:28 pm

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:23 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:29 pm
Interesting thread...

Drayden VanDyke @DraydenV
2h2 hours ago
Replying to @kaitlinefree
Not the surface. the quality of horses. Surface is good might be a tad hard but not the main problem trust me I’m on it
https://twitter.com/DraydenV/status/1106230356158513152
So the quality of horses at Golden Gate, which has been running largely incident free all winter, is superior to that of Santa Anita?
stark
Posts: 5369
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:24 pm

Med rule changes..

What's the effective date?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Tessablue
Posts: 4016
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm

Reactive flailing in the dark that will only cause more chaos and harm because people can't admit when they are at fault and can't be bothered to sit down, look at research, and figure things out.

And by the way? I said this a few days ago:
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm
I'm glad they are doing analytics and instituting new safety measures, but I want to know what they are doing to address this specific outbreak. The horses who died were not classically at-risk, and horses are dying on fast tracks. It certainly looks as though every horse who has raced or trained over the track for an extended period of time could be considered "at-risk" moving forward.
The filly who just died was lightly raced, started late in 2yo year, and has raced twice over this exact surface. She fit in perfectly with the Cluster 3 fatalities. If I can figure this shit out FOR FREE during my extremely rare free time, it's absolutely inexcusable that people on whom the FUTURE OF THE SPORT RESTS can't do the same.

Utterly, utterly infuriating.
stark
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Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:54 pm

Is it true .....

Jill was spotted looking at property in Florida?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Somnambulist

Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm
Reactive flailing in the dark that will only cause more chaos and harm because people can't admit when they are at fault and can't be bothered to sit down, look at research, and figure things out.

And by the way? I said this a few days ago:
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm
I'm glad they are doing analytics and instituting new safety measures, but I want to know what they are doing to address this specific outbreak. The horses who died were not classically at-risk, and horses are dying on fast tracks. It certainly looks as though every horse who has raced or trained over the track for an extended period of time could be considered "at-risk" moving forward.
The filly who just died was lightly raced, started late in 2yo year, and has raced twice over this exact surface. She fit in perfectly with the Cluster 3 fatalities. If I can figure this shit out FOR FREE during my extremely rare free time, it's absolutely inexcusable that people on whom the FUTURE OF THE SPORT RESTS can't do the same.

Utterly, utterly infuriating.
They don't care. It's mind boggling. How much longer do you personally feel like feeling like this?
stark
Posts: 5369
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:06 pm

Today's horse had 22 previous workouts and 2 races. Which brought to mind a stat that I read somewhere early on in this cycle of news. That being something along the lines of West coast horses average working 4 times between starts while East coast horses average about 1.

At the time I just assumed it was inferior record keeping causing the discrepancy as easterners have been sketchy for the past 57 years or so.

But maybe there's something to it? Worth a column on the spreadsheet?

Did anybody else see that stat somewhere?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm
Reactive flailing in the dark that will only cause more chaos and harm because people can't admit when they are at fault and can't be bothered to sit down, look at research, and figure things out.

And by the way? I said this a few days ago:
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm
I'm glad they are doing analytics and instituting new safety measures, but I want to know what they are doing to address this specific outbreak. The horses who died were not classically at-risk, and horses are dying on fast tracks. It certainly looks as though every horse who has raced or trained over the track for an extended period of time could be considered "at-risk" moving forward.
The filly who just died was lightly raced, started late in 2yo year, and has raced twice over this exact surface. She fit in perfectly with the Cluster 3 fatalities. If I can figure this shit out FOR FREE during my extremely rare free time, it's absolutely inexcusable that people on whom the FUTURE OF THE SPORT RESTS can't do the same.

Utterly, utterly infuriating.
Yes, she fit the cluster. She'd had 8 works over the dirt track since December, all 4f except one at 5f. Since September when she had her last break, she'd totaled 16 works on the SA dirt track, plus her two races. That's a lot of pounding on a hard surface. DVD might have made light of the track conditions in his tweet, but he did add that the surface might be a tad hard. Her two races were fair to middling and she went off at high odds. I'd say she fit the at-risk profile and at least should have been flagged.

They need to be better at flagging at-risk horses. Transparent vet records, better and more out of competition testing, and investing in diagnostic equipment to aid in the early detection of pre-existing conditions (portable MRIs and maybe soon blood bio-marker tests) to scan at-risk horses may be the most exciting things to come out of all this tragedy.
Tessablue
Posts: 4016
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:03 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Yes, she fit the cluster. She'd had 8 works over the dirt track since December, all 4f except one at 5f. Since September when she had her last break, she'd totaled 16 works on the SA dirt track, plus her two races. That's a lot of pounding on a hard surface. DVD might have made light of the track conditions in his tweet, but he did add that the surface might be a tad hard. Her two races were fair to middling and she went off at high odds. I'd say she fit the at-risk profile and at least should have been flagged.

They need to be better at flagging at-risk horses. Transparent vet records, better and more out of competition testing, and investing in diagnostic equipment to aid in the early detection of pre-existing conditions (portable MRIs and maybe soon blood bio-marker tests) to scan at-risk horses may be the most exciting things to come out of all this tragedy.
I'm glad there are some positive things, but they just don't feel positive in wake of the fact that this specific incident, which is accumulating damage against the sport as rapidly as young horses are over the surface. From everything we've seen, mandating horses to come in earlier would cause more deaths, not fewer! It's so frustrating to see this and hear "the surface isn't the problem" over and over, while at the same time they just lob molotov cocktails into the mix and make huge changes without warning. If Ritvo thinks she wasn't an at-risk horse, he and the others are not doing their jobs. I've calmed down now, but who will be next? It feels inevitable at this point.
Somnambulist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm
They don't care. It's mind boggling. How much longer do you personally feel like feeling like this?
That's an excellent question, and the answer may depend on the email I just sent. Certainly not the dumbest hat to be thrown into this particular ring. Someone out there has to care, right?

RE: workouts, that's a good question but it's extremely hard to judge without knowing if those east coast horses are racing more. Per biomechanics research and the article Sparrow Castle posted earlier, you would expect working more to produce more bone adaptation and stronger bones. But in this case, which breaks a lot of the classical at-risk molds, the increased works are probably contributing to the problem instead. It certainly looks as though this track is causing accumulated damage in horses who just don't have the bone density to handle it. Frankly, it looks as though every horse who has raced over the surface is at-risk at this point. There's probably no correct answer here, but there certainly seem to be a lot of wrong ones.
stark
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Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:22 pm

Okay I don't know if too many works is a good thing or bad.

But what about the trainer who isn't happy with the way their horse was travelling, and turns around and tells the owner we're not quite ready for a start, need another work or two first.

And what about the jockey who says I'll pass. Should he be required to say something officially if he feels something negative?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Catalina
Posts: 3656
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Location: South Texas

Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:54 pm

Sparrow Castle wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:52 pm
Reactive flailing in the dark that will only cause more chaos and harm because people can't admit when they are at fault and can't be bothered to sit down, look at research, and figure things out.

And by the way? I said this a few days ago:
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:58 pm
I'm glad they are doing analytics and instituting new safety measures, but I want to know what they are doing to address this specific outbreak. The horses who died were not classically at-risk, and horses are dying on fast tracks. It certainly looks as though every horse who has raced or trained over the track for an extended period of time could be considered "at-risk" moving forward.
The filly who just died was lightly raced, started late in 2yo year, and has raced twice over this exact surface. She fit in perfectly with the Cluster 3 fatalities. If I can figure this shit out FOR FREE during my extremely rare free time, it's absolutely inexcusable that people on whom the FUTURE OF THE SPORT RESTS can't do the same.

Utterly, utterly infuriating.
Yes, she fit the cluster. She'd had 8 works over the dirt track since December, all 4f except one at 5f. Since September when she had her last break, she'd totaled 16 works on the SA dirt track, plus her two races. That's a lot of pounding on a hard surface. DVD might have made light of the track conditions in his tweet, but he did add that the surface might be a tad hard. Her two races were fair to middling and she went off at high odds. I'd say she fit the at-risk profile and at least should have been flagged.

They need to be better at flagging at-risk horses. Transparent vet records, better and more out of competition testing, and investing in diagnostic equipment to aid in the early detection of pre-existing conditions (portable MRIs and maybe soon blood bio-marker tests) to scan at-risk horses may be the most exciting things to come out of all this tragedy.
DVD also - in a response concerning Battle of Midway - referred to Santa Anita's track as "unforgiving". Seems to me like "unforgiving" sounds more like a bush track than the pride of West Coast racing.
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:55 pm

The pressure to run horses is coming from track officials. I'm sure there are some owners pressuring trainers too, but a good trainer would tell them to move the horse instead. Any owner who doesn't trust the judgment of his/her trainer should not be using that trainer, no matter who he/she is.

Jockeys pass on horses all the time, for various reasons. If they were required to report they didn't like the condition of the horse, a whole new can of worms would open.
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:20 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:03 pm
Sparrow Castle wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 pm
Yes, she fit the cluster. She'd had 8 works over the dirt track since December, all 4f except one at 5f. Since September when she had her last break, she'd totaled 16 works on the SA dirt track, plus her two races. That's a lot of pounding on a hard surface. DVD might have made light of the track conditions in his tweet, but he did add that the surface might be a tad hard. Her two races were fair to middling and she went off at high odds. I'd say she fit the at-risk profile and at least should have been flagged.

They need to be better at flagging at-risk horses. Transparent vet records, better and more out of competition testing, and investing in diagnostic equipment to aid in the early detection of pre-existing conditions (portable MRIs and maybe soon blood bio-marker tests) to scan at-risk horses may be the most exciting things to come out of all this tragedy.
I'm glad there are some positive things, but they just don't feel positive in wake of the fact that this specific incident, which is accumulating damage against the sport as rapidly as young horses are over the surface. From everything we've seen, mandating horses to come in earlier would cause more deaths, not fewer! It's so frustrating to see this and hear "the surface isn't the problem" over and over, while at the same time they just lob molotov cocktails into the mix and make huge changes without warning. If Ritvo thinks she wasn't an at-risk horse, he and the others are not doing their jobs. I've calmed down now, but who will be next? It feels inevitable at this point.
Somnambulist wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:59 pm
They don't care. It's mind boggling. How much longer do you personally feel like feeling like this?
That's an excellent question, and the answer may depend on the email I just sent. Certainly not the dumbest hat to be thrown into this particular ring. Someone out there has to care, right?

RE: workouts, that's a good question but it's extremely hard to judge without knowing if those east coast horses are racing more. Per biomechanics research and the article Sparrow Castle posted earlier, you would expect working more to produce more bone adaptation and stronger bones. But in this case, which breaks a lot of the classical at-risk molds, the increased works are probably contributing to the problem instead. It certainly looks as though this track is causing accumulated damage in horses who just don't have the bone density to handle it. Frankly, it looks as though every horse who has raced over the surface is at-risk at this point. There's probably no correct answer here, but there certainly seem to be a lot of wrong ones.
Responding to the bolded part above, I thought that too. But they could train on the training track where there has been no fatalities. I've stated before in this thread that I don't understand why more trainers don't train there. I've noticed that most of the horses at SA that are in my VS are training on the training track. I understand the entire horse population can't fit capacity wise, but I sure wouldn't be training on that dirt track right now. All the horses training on the dirt track for any length of time ARE at-risk horses.

I am totally in favor of scanning every horse at all tracks at regular intervals. I mentioned before that I and my fellow owners gladly would pay for that to keep our horses healthy and sound, and I'm sure others would too if the price is low enough. We've heard for years that pre-existing injuries are showing up in 80-90% of horses who have necropsies. If every track bought those portable MRI machines, perhaps the price would drop...volume discounts, competition between suppliers, etc. Just get those diagnostic things into common use!
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Sparrow Castle
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:36 pm

Ray Paulick@raypaulick
1h1 hour ago
More Ray Paulick Retweeted NTWO
Otherwise known as bisphosphonates ... https://www.paulickreport.com/horse-car ... d-healing/

NTWO @NTWOorg
2h2 hours ago
Replying to @raypaulick
Osphos and Tildren.... I hope these two drugs are being looked at and if their use may be playing a part in increased breakdowns.

Ray Paulick @raypaulick
4h4 hours ago
TVG reports the Stronach Group, which already supports the Horseracing Integrity Act, is announcing its two California tracks will impose new house rules eliminating race-day Lasix, review and revise all medication policies, and examine other issues like use of riding crop.
Tessablue
Posts: 4016
Joined: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:05 pm

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:47 pm

If they ban Lasix but keep bisphosphonates, I'm done. Although it's hard to say how much of an effect they had in this situation, that article is spot-on regarding the long-term effects those drugs can have. It's absolutely insane that they were ever used in the first place.

Meanwhile, I look forward to the first photo ops of horses bleeding after the wire. Do trainers even use Lasix during works?
stark
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Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm

The Santa Anita racing office late on Thursday sent an alert to horsemen that said that jockeys and exercise riders may use the whip for "corrective safety measures only," effective immediately.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
WarBiscuit
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm

stark wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm
The Santa Anita racing office late on Thursday sent an alert to horsemen that said that jockeys and exercise riders may use the whip for "corrective safety measures only," effective immediately.
What they are calling a "cushion crop" - is that the standard crop that has been in use all along?

WarBiscuit
"One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent." H.L. Mencken
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Curtis
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:32 pm

WarBiscuit wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm
stark wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm
The Santa Anita racing office late on Thursday sent an alert to horsemen that said that jockeys and exercise riders may use the whip for "corrective safety measures only," effective immediately.
What they are calling a "cushion crop" - is that the standard crop that has been in use all along?

WarBiscuit
It’s also known as a “popper”. The use of it began a couple of years ago. It’s different than the old standard crop.
BaroqueAgain1
Posts: 10505
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:16 pm

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:40 pm

Banning the use of Lasix.
Increasing the ban on legal therapeutic NSAIDS, joint injections, shockwave therapy, and anabolic steroids.


Is it fair to lump shockwave therapy in with joint injections and anabolics? I'm under the impression that shockwave involves transmitting vibration to a limb, hopefully stimulating healing and bone growth. It's not invasive and doesn't put meds into a horse's system. I wouldn't mind having that done on my own legs. :P
If I have it wrong, please correct me.
WarBiscuit
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Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:44 pm

Curtis wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:32 pm
WarBiscuit wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:11 pm
stark wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 pm
The Santa Anita racing office late on Thursday sent an alert to horsemen that said that jockeys and exercise riders may use the whip for "corrective safety measures only," effective immediately.
What they are calling a "cushion crop" - is that the standard crop that has been in use all along?

WarBiscuit
It’s also known as a “popper”. The use of it began a couple of years ago. It’s different than the old standard crop.
Thanks Curtis. I was just curious. Wasn't sure if they meant they were considering introducing a crop that was even less severe.

WarBiscuit
"One horse-laugh is worth ten thousand syllogisms. It is not only more effective; it is also vastly more intelligent." H.L. Mencken
stark
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Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
Location: SoCal

Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:45 pm

BaroqueAgain1 wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:40 pm
Banning the use of Lasix.
Increasing the ban on legal therapeutic NSAIDS, joint injections, shockwave therapy, and anabolic steroids.


Is it fair
They can't possibly make these rule changes effective immediately, or can they?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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