Tragedy hits Santa Anita again

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Katewerk
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm

Research has continuously shown that these deaths are preventable. This means we can get to zero deaths if we stop throwing our own pity party and actually concentrate on looking at the problem and finding a solution. GQ Covergirl was unraced at two, whereas Emtech made only one start late into his 2yo season. Why? If we actually look for them, there are real trends to examine and discuss here.
Published this month in The Journal of 20-20 Hindsight.
stark
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:10 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm
Research has continuously shown that these deaths are preventable. This means we can get to zero deaths if we stop throwing our own pity party and actually concentrate on looking at the problem and finding a solution. GQ Covergirl was unraced at two, whereas Emtech made only one start late into his 2yo season. Why? If we actually look for them, there are real trends to examine and discuss here.
Complete and utter bullshit, in my humble opinion.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
Somnambulist

Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:14 pm

So terrible, wanting to improve anything.

The science is bullshit trend is... interesting.
Somnambulist

Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:20 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm
It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves. Do you all ever stop to think about what it would look like if someone stopped by this forum to see how racing fans feel about these tragedies? How can you complain about the media painting us all in a bad light if you repeatedly behave exactly the way they say you do? If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.
Are you honestly surprised?
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Katewerk
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:46 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:14 pm
So terrible, wanting to improve anything.

The science is bullshit trend is... interesting.
Wants and feels are not science.
Tessablue
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:52 pm

Somnambulist wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:20 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm
It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves. Do you all ever stop to think about what it would look like if someone stopped by this forum to see how racing fans feel about these tragedies? How can you complain about the media painting us all in a bad light if you repeatedly behave exactly the way they say you do? If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.
Are you honestly surprised?
Nope. Fascinating to note the... phenotype... of this mindset though. Who would have guessed that people with the attitude of "science is wrong" and "things have always been bad, thus we must make no effort to change them," among other things, would be perfectly content with scapegoating the media while allowing these preventable deaths to continute?

I truly don't understand the cognitive dissonance invoked by the knowledge that these deaths are preventable. You all realize it's a good thing, right? That it means there's a problem we can fix? I guess it might help you sleep better to think that all of this is completely out of our hands and there's nothing we can do besides accept it, but that just... isn't true. So your options are "pretend everything is fine and let the deaths continue, eventually leading to the dissolution of the sport" or "acknowledge the issues and work towards improving them, potentially saving equine lives and ensuring the continued survival of the sport." Why on earth would you choose the former?
Katewerk wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 pm
Published this month in The Journal of 20-20 Hindsight.
As much as I regret ever unblocking anything that you say, would you care for some links to my detailed analysis of the decline of top-level 2yo racing in this country from earlier this year? Or my analysis of the SA deaths earlier this spring, which showed a strong trend towards a lack of 2yo starts- a trend noted in previous formal studies of racing breakdowns at other racetracks? Luckily for the sport you claim to care about, there are adults out there thinking about these things.
MySaladDays
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:59 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm

It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves.

<snip>

If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.

THIS.
stark
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Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:55 am
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:12 pm

MySaladDays wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:59 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm

It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves.

<snip>

If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.

THIS.
Sounds pretty easy, but how exactly does a fan hold people in the industry accountable?
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
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Katewerk
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:21 pm

Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:52 pm
Somnambulist wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:20 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm
It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves. Do you all ever stop to think about what it would look like if someone stopped by this forum to see how racing fans feel about these tragedies? How can you complain about the media painting us all in a bad light if you repeatedly behave exactly the way they say you do? If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.
Are you honestly surprised?
Nope. Fascinating to note the... phenotype... of this mindset though. Who would have guessed that people with the attitude of "science is wrong" and "things have always been bad, thus we must make no effort to change them," among other things, would be perfectly content with scapegoating the media while allowing these preventable deaths to continute?

I truly don't understand the cognitive dissonance invoked by the knowledge that these deaths are preventable. You all realize it's a good thing, right? That it means there's a problem we can fix? I guess it might help you sleep better to think that all of this is completely out of our hands and there's nothing we can do besides accept it, but that just... isn't true. So your options are "pretend everything is fine and let the deaths continue, eventually leading to the dissolution of the sport" or "acknowledge the issues and work towards improving them, potentially saving equine lives and ensuring the continued survival of the sport." Why on earth would you choose the former?
Katewerk wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:58 pm
Published this month in The Journal of 20-20 Hindsight.
As much as I regret ever unblocking anything that you say, would you care for some links to my detailed analysis of the decline of top-level 2yo racing in this country from earlier this year? Or my analysis of the SA deaths earlier this spring, which showed a strong trend towards a lack of 2yo starts- a trend noted in previous formal studies of racing breakdowns at other racetracks? Luckily for the sport you claim to care about, there are adults out there thinking about these things.
You wrote: "This means we can get to zero deaths" because "science".

Two of us called bullshit on that, and your response was to provide an short essay based on mind reading and ad homonym.

So, back to science.

Show your math.
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Katewerk
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:22 pm

stark wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:12 pm
MySaladDays wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:59 pm
Tessablue wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:18 pm

It's honestly disturbing that so many of you are seemingly more upset by the media coverage of the deaths than the deaths themselves.

<snip>

If you actually want this sport to exist past the next decade, quit whining and start holding people in the industry accountable.
THIS.
Sounds pretty easy, but how exactly does a fan hold people in the industry accountable?

Let me answer.

You spend your free time on a low traffic fan forum displaying your virtue signalling peacock feathers.
stark
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:12 pm

After watching the sport from all angles for the past 50 years I'm pretty confident we can hang on for another 10-12 years until such time that AOC's science kicks in then nothing else much matters.
I've found it easier to tear up tickets at 8/1 instead of 8/5.
katmandu
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:32 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:21 pm
You wrote: "This means we can get to zero deaths" because "science".

Two of us called bullshit on that, and your response was to provide an short essay based on mind reading and ad homonym.

So, back to science.

Show your math.
Actually, she already has as referenced above. And although I agree that ZERO deaths may be overly optimistic (as ALL deaths are not a potential function of the hypothesized cause or other preventable causes if addressed), the fact that a cluster of the deaths may be eliminated/mitigated seems like a rather nice thing to hope/work for. And also, the consequences of using certain drugs on horses may be better understood and you never know where that information will take you. (And she may have meant "zero" deaths in this particular context/subset of deaths, perhaps not clearly elucidated. It's an internet forum AND Sunday, after all). I also seem to remember that she communicated her ideas/analysis to people in the industry vs. only this "low traffic forum". And if this place is so inconsequential (and I assume by extension you mean posters, also), why pay any attention?

One of the traits I admire about Tessablue is her generosity of spirit/positivity that you often see in her posts. On some days, it is a lesson to me to do better, being inclined to judgementalness and old age crankiness
(get off my lawn!). The fact that she is informed, well reasoned, a biologist, and a fan of Imperial Hint doesn't hurt either.
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Katewerk
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:52 pm

katmandu wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:32 pm

Actually, she already has as referenced above. And although I agree that ZERO deaths may be overly optimistic (as ALL deaths are not a potential function of the hypothesized cause or other preventable causes if addressed), the fact that a cluster of the deaths may be eliminated/mitigated seems like a rather nice thing to hope/work for. And also, the consequences of using certain drugs on horses may be better understood and you never know where that information will take you. (And she may have meant "zero" deaths in this particular context/subset of deaths, perhaps not clearly elucidated. It's an internet forum AND Sunday, after all).
None of those facts were in play. This is a thread premised on a single unfortunate fatality at Santa Anita about which she knows nothing. She chose to launch yet another screed of over the top moral posturing, punctuated by the word "zero" deaths.
I also seem to remember that she communicated her ideas/analysis to people in the industry vs. only this "low traffic forum". And if this place is so inconsequential (and I assume by extension you mean posters, also), why pay any attention?
This is a low traffic forum, it publishes the information on every page. I didn't use the word inconsequential, you have. I'm in no position to know if the posts here are consequential or not, but there's precious little real world evidence that it is.

I've been here since before the death of Eight Belles, (what year was that?). I don't so much "pay attention" as "visit on occasion to see if there's anything interesting".
katmandu wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:32 pm
One of the traits I admire about Tessablue is her generosity of spirit/positivity that you often see in her posts. On some days, it is a lesson to me to do better, being inclined to judgementalness and old age crankiness
(get off my lawn!). The fact that she is informed, well reasoned, a biologist, and a fan of Imperial Hint doesn't hurt either.
I didn't see much "reason" in her comments. As I said before, she indulged in some generosity of mind reading and mild personal insults, but precious little else.

Besides, I'm pretty sure she's cognitively dissonanced herself back to the block button anyway.
Last edited by Katewerk on Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tessablue
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:52 pm

katmandu wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:32 pm

Actually, she already has as referenced above. And although I agree that ZERO deaths may be overly optimistic (as ALL deaths are not a potential function of the hypothesized cause or other preventable causes if addressed), the fact that a cluster of the deaths may be eliminated/mitigated seems like a rather nice thing to hope/work for. And also, the consequences of using certain drugs on horses may be better understood and you never know where that information will take you. (And she may have meant "zero" deaths in this particular context/subset of deaths, perhaps not clearly elucidated. It's an internet forum AND Sunday, after all). I also seem to remember that she communicated her ideas/analysis to people in the industry vs. only this "low traffic forum". And if this place is so inconsequential (and I assume by extension you mean posters, also), why pay any attention?

One of the traits I admire about Tessablue is her generosity of spirit/positivity that you often see in her posts. On some days, it is a lesson to me to do better, being inclined to judgementalness and old age crankiness
(get off my lawn!). The fact that she is informed, well reasoned, a biologist, and a fan of Imperial Hint doesn't hurt either.
I really appreciate this, katmandu. You always have such fantastic insights, especially with regard to veterinary science, and I've learned so much from you over the years (the Sprint is going to be a huge challenge, but I think he can do it). I fully agree that zero total deaths is unlikely to ever happen because, as you noted, there are many unknown factors at present (especially cardiovascular factors, which we haven't focused much on for understandable reasons). But zero preventable deaths, especially within the context of musculoskeletal injuries? I think it's difficult but doable. We've already seen progress this year with the conversation around bisphosphonates, and Santa Anita, for all that I criticized them earlier this year and think the BC should have moved, has made appreciable improvements. Sure, it can be frustrating to read articles that pass over these improvments- but that's no reason to disagree with their assertion that every death is a tragedy that must be addressed.

I have indeed communicated these findings to people with the industry, though I can't blame anyone for overlooking an internet person in favor of their own formal reviews. And although losing my temper here feels terrible, it's incredibly frustrating to find mere discussion of these issues occluded by sheer bad faith. Horse racing is one of the most fan-interactive sports out there. Every person can contribute to bettering this sport in their own way... as long as they are willing to admit that parts of it are in desperate need of betterment.
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Diver52
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:37 pm

I almost hate to say this, but on TVG a week or so ago they were saying some incredible things about Michael Dickinson's current version of Tapeta (Tapeta 10) in use at Woodbine and in the U.K. I just Googled it and the fatality statistics are so much lower than on dirt that maybe we need to take another look. I know horsemen complained about more soft tissue problems but at this point, it's all about catastrophic breakdowns.
I ran marathons. I saw the Taj Mahal by Moonlight. I drove Highway 1 in a convertible. I petted Zenyatta.
katmandu
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:49 pm

dp
Last edited by katmandu on Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
katmandu
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:50 pm

katmandu wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:49 pm
Katewerk wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:52 pm

None of those facts were in play. This is a thread premised on a single unfortunate fatality at Santa Anita about which she knows nothing. She chose to launch yet another screed of over the top moral posturing, punctuated by the word "zero" deaths.

NO, the use of the word "again" in the title (to say nothing of "Santa Anita") puts it in context
ETA: Ugh, lost the rest.
Last edited by katmandu on Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ThreeMustangs
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Bye Bye Beautiful broke down on the backstretch in R3 at SA on the dirt and was euthanized. She was a 2yo filly making her second start.
BaroqueAgain1
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:03 pm

Diver52: "...on TVG a week or so ago they were saying some incredible things about Michael Dickinson's current version of Tapeta (Tapeta 10) in use at Woodbine and in the U.K."

Paulick's current poll is asking "Should a synthetic main track be a disqualifying aspect for hosting a Breeders' Cup?"
I"m a bit surprised to see that the majority of respondents have voted NO, 54.06% to 45.94%
For a long time, it seemed that most fans (to say nothing of trainers/owners) were very resistant to the idea of returning the BC to a synthetic main track. I wonder if the months of reading about grim breakdown numbers from tracks across this country has made more people start thinking seriously about the statistics that show synthetics to be safer? :?
https://www.paulickreport.com/
MySaladDays
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Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:16 pm

Katewerk wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 3:22 pm

Let me answer.

You spend your free time on a low traffic fan forum displaying your virtue signalling peacock feathers.

If you feel powerless, Katewerk, then just say that. ;)

And, if that is truly the case, then it really is best that you step aside and let those who feel more capable solve the bigger problems.

Not everyone is in your predicament.

In the meantime, best for youto spend your free time sticking to whatever it is that you're good at.

(so far that appears to be making snarky remarks while casting aspersions on anonymous members who you don't know anything about, and who may have better resources, educations, and/or connections than you do.)
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